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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18853678 - 09/17/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Trichoderma does not hide well because it is extremely fast.  Trich also has a very distinct "fresh" earthy or "minty" smell to it.  It is hard to miss even in small amounts, that smell overpowers everything on your spawn. Trich does not, however, go green on grain spawn very often.

But I know for a fact that a whole shitload of members call any green mold "trich." This is a source of much confusion to people and a pet peeve of mine.

Green molds (non-trich) don't really have much smell, not the ones I've encountered. And some of these greens also grow at about the same rate as your mycelium. Combine that with a lack of distinguishing smell and white mycelium...then you've got an adept little ninja contam...but it won't be trich.

I've seen some of my cultures on agar where the mycelium is so enmeshed with mold that they grow in tandem. The green never shows up after being spawned to bulk...until 2-3 days after the first flush. I am working with many types of agar to try to figure a way to clean this but have no real luck so far.

It was RR actually who pointed out that I have mold piggybacking those cultures.


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Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/17/13 02:27 PM)


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18853745 - 09/17/13 02:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
But I know for a fact that a whole shitload of members call any green mold "trich." This is a source of much confusion to people and a pet peeve of mine.

Green molds (non-trich) don't really have much smell, not the ones I've encountered. And some of these greens also grow at about the same rate as your mycelium. Combine that with a lack of distinguishing smell and white mycelium...then you've got an adept little ninja contam...but it won't be trich.





Anyone having trouble with contaminated tubs should really pay attention to this.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18854620 - 09/17/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If it looks right and smells right, could it really have ninja trich? I mean really.



Yup. The idea that a mold contaminated jar will always show obvious by the time it's fully colonized is a misconception that's caused people a lot of confusion in figuring out the source of their problem.

There are a lot of different mold with different attributes. Just because some start sporulating soon after inoculation doesn't mean they all do. I know at least some Trichoderma species will not start sporulating until after they have colonized all the available substrate. It's kind of like how we can g2g jars many times yet not find mushrooms growing in the any of the spawn jars during the process. It would erroneous to think "well surely if there was mushroom mycelium in these jars I would have seen some mushrooms by now."


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Edited by Kizzle (09/17/13 05:49 PM)


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18854681 - 09/17/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
Trichoderma does not hide well because it is extremely fast.  Trich also has a very distinct "fresh" earthy or "minty" smell to it.  It is hard to miss even in small amounts, that smell overpowers everything on your spawn. Trich does not, however, go green on grain spawn very often.

But I know for a fact that a whole shitload of members call any green mold "trich." This is a source of much confusion to people and a pet peeve of mine.

Green molds (non-trich) don't really have much smell, not the ones I've encountered. And some of these greens also grow at about the same rate as your mycelium. Combine that with a lack of distinguishing smell and white mycelium...then you've got an adept little ninja contam...but it won't be trich.

I've seen some of my cultures on agar where the mycelium is so enmeshed with mold that they grow in tandem. The green never shows up after being spawned to bulk...until 2-3 days after the first flush. I am working with many types of agar to try to figure a way to clean this but have no real luck so far.

It was RR actually who pointed out that I have mold piggybacking those cultures.




:shrug:


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18856425 - 09/18/13 12:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It wouldn't surprise me if most of the people dealing with Trich problems were actually dealing with another green mold. But I've also used apparently healthy jars with no noticeable odor only to have the unmistakable Trich odor by the end of the spawn run, with the actual appearance of the mold occurring during the first flush. I can only speculate as to why but since the only 3 trays that contaminated used spawn g2g-ed from the same master jar I assume it had to do with the g2g and that the odor may not be always be present, at least in some stages of growth or under certain conditions.



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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
    #18856443 - 09/18/13 12:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If you have an unmistakeable trich odor at the end of the spawn run, I would assume a poorly pasteurized substrate is the culprit. You would see/smell that on your grains, even with minimal experience.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
    #18856450 - 09/18/13 12:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:whathesaid:

Did the grain smell sour? How did you prepare your substrate?


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SoreSpore]
    #18856686 - 09/18/13 03:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It was coir/verm partially sterilized with boiling water similar to the bucket tek. It's not that I haven't considered that as the possible cause but I've been using that method for some time. I rarely do g2gs between spawn jars. It seems too much to be a coincidence that it happened to coincide with the g2g.

The grain jars had no odor of any kind. In retrospect I suppose it's possible they did have an odor and I just didn't notice it at the time since I never seem to smell the mushroomy smell people are always mentioning either.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
    #18861865 - 09/19/13 07:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My interpretation of this thread so far:

Trich in your tub is likely caused by improper pasteurization. If your grain spawn has trich, it would likely show itself prior to spawning.

Green molds are often misidentified as trich. These green molds can live with your mycelium in the grains and go unnoticed.

The best way to troubleshoot is to properly identify the contamination in your tub and to properly pasteurize.

If you properly pasteurize and still have contamination, the spawn is the culprit.

If you have contamination and you use the bucket tek, then all bets are off.

Is that a decent summery? I'm not sure how important it is to properly identify the contam. regardless if it's trich or not, I think the rest of the summery still apples


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18861935 - 09/19/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I still say the bucket tek can be fixed at least when using 2 bricks of coir by simply hydrating in 2 parts. Add a gallon, let sit for 20 or 30 mins or so, stir and add remaining water.

This serves several purposes: to prehydrate thereby providing better heat distribution (no more dry compressed spots), and also adding water in 2 parts help to maintain proper temperatures for a longer time.

I'm not a bucket tek fan but I'd love to see someone give it a go and report back.


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Invisiblej3rk0ff
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #18862164 - 09/19/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i can never find oust or glad w/oust


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Invisiblebulkgrownoob
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: j3rk0ff]
    #18862331 - 09/19/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

j3rk0ff said:
i can never find oust or glad w/oust




Same here. I usually find it at target if you have any in your area


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bulkgrownoob]
    #18862484 - 09/19/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

j3rk0ff said:
i can never find oust or glad w/oust



Quote:

bulkgrownoob said:
Quote:

j3rk0ff said:
i can never find oust or glad w/oust




Same here. I usually find it at target if you have any in your area




sorry, but this is getting off topic.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/19/13 11:09 AM)


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: maddchef]
    #18862485 - 09/19/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

try it several times and post your results


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OfflinePrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18862554 - 09/19/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:popcorn:
I prefer a proper pasteurization


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18868345 - 09/20/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
My interpretation of this thread so far:

Trich in your tub is likely caused by improper pasteurization. If your grain spawn has trich, it would likely show itself prior to spawning.

Green molds are often misidentified as trich. These green molds can live with your mycelium in the grains and go unnoticed.

The best way to troubleshoot is to properly identify the contamination in your tub and to properly pasteurize.

If you properly pasteurize and still have contamination, the spawn is the culprit.

If you have contamination and you use the bucket tek, then all bets are off.

Is that a decent summery? I'm not sure how important it is to properly identify the contam. regardless if it's trich or not, I think the rest of the summery still apples



I would agree except strictly when using coir/verm, and not knowing the nature other peoples problems with that method I can only limit this to IME, sterilizing does not seem to make it more vulnerable to mold. Any other substrate like manure, not using proper pasteurization would definitely be first my suspicion as the cause of mold. And not just Trich any mold. It does seem odd though the people who fail with the bucket tek always get, at least what they identify, as Trich.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Midnight Cyclone]
    #18868390 - 09/20/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Midnight Cyclone said:
Okay, so assuming that you can keep the bucket+substrate between those certain temperatures for 60-90 mins then the bucket tek should provide proper pasteurization. Should it not?




I am quoting you for no reason other than what you are saying is the basis of the discussion in my mind.  My opinion is that since there is not a lot of data about the temps of bucket, spawn etc.  If it works for you, you have a method.  I tried a few times at different water temps, and almost always had fails.  I do pasteurize proper and have had issues down to zero.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
    #18868457 - 09/20/13 04:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, coir, gypsum, vermiculite. That is the focus here as mentioned in my OP. It's a good reminder though.

I don't want to get off topic here, but I would like to mention briefly that my summery should apply to just about any substrate media.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18868482 - 09/20/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If you are keeping appropriate temperatures for the appropriate time, then you are no longer talking about the bucket tek as referenced in my OP. You are talking about proper pasteurization in a bucket.

The heart of this discussion is not about how to fix the bucket tek, but whether or not it's the source of some peoples' contamination woes and whether or not some should stop using it.


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OfflinePrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
    #18868496 - 09/20/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
It does seem odd though the people who fail with the bucket tek always get, at least what they identify, as Trich.



I was thinking the same thing.  IME it was always trich with bucket tek.  I def know the difference between trich and the many many other contams I have encountered.  Some of them I am at a loss as to what they are but many times I am pretty confident I know what sort of contam I am dealing with.  TMC and MMGG sit on a stack of FC's in my room.

It is wierd now that I am thinking about is that every fail as per bucket tek is trich.  Trich is supposedly not suppose to germinate on coir its when we add the grain that the trich has a chance to take hold.  IME which I recently took 2 cups of straight coir and let it sit out in my room that I encounter contams in.  After sitting out for 2 weeks I loaded the wet coir into a bag and its been in there for 6 months I just checked it, with out a single contam.

Ive been growing solid for 6 years now.  I did my first PF tek over 20 years ago.  Ive grown a shroom or two in my experience.  Mycology has become a passion in my life and I grow hard.  For along time I used the bucket tek.  I know damion quite well actually.  You couldnt pay me to use it ever again.  Ive heard about this ninja contam theory I wondered myself.  I make clean syringes clean plates clean spawn.  There is zero chance I got some magic ninja contam hiding in my spawn ive checked it many times.  Thrown grain to agar spawned properly pasteurized tubs. No contams present.  The same jars bucket tek.  Trich.  It is trich I know the whiteness of trich even if I am colour blind.

Lots of ppl have great success with bucket.  I have in the past, yet I would not forgo proper pasteurization at anytime from my experience. I havent used a bucket in over a year and I am glad.

I am a super cheap bastard every time I see a project fail it really pisses me and my pocket book off.  Take the time to properly pasteurize its really not that much harder than a bucket.  Not only is your success rate going to go up you also have the option to add other things beside coir and verm.


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