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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread
    #18769708 - 08/28/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

First, I want to say that this thread is not intended to debunk The Bucket Tek. But, I would like to potentially dispel some of the rhetoric.

When I say "Bucket Tek", I'm reffering to what's commonly called "Damion5050's Coir Tek". From now on I will call it the bucket.

`If I think you are off topic, I will ask you to respect my thread or leave.
`This is not a "How to". This is not about tips and tricks of various methods. Simply just bucket vs pasteurization.**Edit** What I mean is, if you don't understand how the bucket tek or pasteurization is done, then this thread may not be for you.
`The only ingredients we are talking about are coir, vermiculite, gypsum and water.**Edit** This is because these are the primary ingredients in the bucket tek. From what I've read on these forums, most people except that manure and coffee and some other ingredients  require pasteurization.
`If you basically say what someone else already said, then you are not really contributing to the debate.
`debating can be fun and educational. Please be honest in your arguments. If you talk shit, expect to be called out. And I don't always have my kid gloves on :smile:

My intention is to potentially help those who are struggling like I was. And I don't want people to get all butt-hurt when I mention pasteurization. I know enough to know when it's appropriate to make the suggestion.

If your using the bucket and having contam issues, I would agree it is a high probability you are using contaminated spawn. "How the spawn gets contaminated" is a different thread.

But, if you feel good about your spawn prep, you can't see or smell anything wrong, you just have that good ol' shroomy smell, then it can be difficult to troubleshoot it. I know I felt lost because I couldn't tell if I was making a difference. My spawn kept coming out the same.

On the other hand, properly pasteurizing your substrate is very easy to accomplish. And because of the contam resistance, you have room for error.

If you are now using proper pasteurization and still have contam issues, then it becomes more obvious you have another problem. But, I would still properly pasteurize until I got the problem solved.

You can start looking at your spawn and spawn to sub mixing process and other things.

So, if you've never tried the bucket, by all means give it a shot. There is a good chance you will be successful. However, if you are having contam problems, consider my thoughts and keep this thread in mind.

About my experience and knowledge:
I am by no means a master cultivator. For a long time, my grows were hit or miss. I had some crazy contraptions that are laughable in retrospect. These days, I only use rye berries for spawn, properly pasteurized coir, vermiculite, gypsum, and water for substrate, and monotubs for fruiting chambers.

I used the bucket for a long time. I made the switch about seven months ago. I resisted giving up the bucket. I loved the bucket and so desperately wanted it to work. I really did not want to have to load up jars and wait for my temperature to rise and wait on the timer and all that.

I decided to switch to proper pasteurization after several failed monotubs. My success rate with monotubs and the bucket started out low and never improved. Sometimes it was bacteria, but mostly it was trich. After switching, my success rate went way up.

This brings us to the debate. I can't give you a bunch of data to explain scientifically why I became more successful, I can only give my experience.

Right off the bat, I want to address some common arguments:

The problem is likely your spawn.
This argument is why I resisted giving up the bucket tek. I read this over and over again. I tried many variations on my spawn prep without any change in success. Only proper pasteurization gave me a marked increase.

Contamination can be hidden and/or dormant in your spawn and then flourish once put in your sub.
I agree with this 100%. It's a valid argument. The problem I have with it is that I could use clean agar and do multiple grain to grain transfers without the contam showing itself. But I would still get a contamed sub.

Coir, vermiculite, and gypsum are contam resistant.
I agree. You'll get no argument from me. I already know this, but it does not explain my experience.

RR has left buckets of coir sitting wet in a bucket for a long time without seeing a contam.
So, what. Was it used for substrate? Either way, I'm not sure how that explains my experience. Just another testimony of how contam resistant it is, which I'm already aware of.

I've been using the bucket tek for a long time with great success. I rarely get a contam before the second flush.
Another testimonial. I don't doubt it and that is awesome. But, not everyone has the same results and that's a fact that can't be denied. Therefore, it's not a valid argument, it's merely an experience.

But, so many people use the bucket tek with great success.
That is also true; I would be a fool to deny it. But, see the above argument.

Again, I am not trying to discredit the bucket tek and I do not aim to offend. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from starting out with it either.

I think I covered the bases for the arguments. I really don't see much of a debate happening. Thanks for reading and good luck to you.:thumbup:

**Edit 2013-08-29** Added some clarifying statements so maybe poeple don't get the wrong idea marked by **Edit**. I did not remoe content though

**Edit 2013-08-30** I moved the some paragraphs around to hopefully make the OP appear less combative. I did not remove or add content though.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (08/30/13 04:08 PM)


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InvisibleTranscendingLife
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18769732 - 08/28/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I really don't see much of a debate happening.




Because you stated not to discuss what the plausible problems are. :wow:

I've used the bucket tek for coir+verm+gypsum+water, as well as hard wood pellets.
None have contaminated during colonization or even into a third flush.

Improper sterile procedures may have been your problem...


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #18769825 - 08/28/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TranscendingLife said:
Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I really don't see much of a debate happening.




Because you stated not to discuss what the plausible problems are. :wow:

I've used the bucket tek for coir+verm+gypsum+water, as well as hard wood pellets.
None have contaminated during colonization or even into a third flush.

Improper sterile procedures may have been your problem...




TL, I respect you and don't want to get in to a thing with you, but...

I re-read the post and can't find where i stated "not to discuss what the plausible problems are." I did go ahead and address the more common arguments I've encountered and the things that were said to me, including the ones you mentioned, but I didn't make them off limits. Not sure why that's a :wow: moment.

You are  more than welcome to repeat those. I would prefer to hear some new ones though. The wood pellets are interesting, I didn't know you could do that. But that's a different subject.

I hope my intentions did not escape you.


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18769884 - 08/28/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So is this like a "bucket improvement ideas" discussion?

If so, would lining the bucket let you properly cool the sub?

I know 160 is pasteurization temps for heating... For 90 minutes.
How fast and what temperature does it need to cool to, to be proper?


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
    #18769900 - 08/28/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blojo02184 said:
So is this like a "bucket improvement ideas" discussion?





Not really. It's more about whether or not to use the bucket tek at all.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18769942 - 08/28/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

One would use the bucket tek, IF it would properly pasteurize.
It can obviously keep heat and temps long enough. Our issue is cooling, and maybe mixing.

That's my 2 cents.

And it seems like this is more like your statements, and not open discussion.

Later guys


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
    #18769987 - 08/28/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Has anyone considered colonization and fruiting temperatures role in the bucket Tek? I have had nothing but success for about a dozen trays and 8 monotubs now. I colonize and fruit my tubs at about 68 degrees. Is it possible this could be a factor?


Edited by Stromrider (08/28/13 09:45 PM)


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
    #18770764 - 08/28/13 09:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blojo02184 said:
One would use the bucket tek, IF it would properly pasteurize.
It can obviously keep heat and temps long enough. Our issue is cooling, and maybe mixing.

That's my 2 cents.

And it seems like this is more like your statements, and not open discussion.

Later guys




It is an open discussion, I just don't want it to get real long because of things like sfd's vs felt or bags vs jars and that sort of stuff. You know how threads can get.

If it would properly pasteurize, then it is no longer the bucket tek I'm referring to.

I haven't ruled out cooling as being a problem with the bucket tek, food and beverage companies recognize that as an essential part of pasteurization.

If by "mixing" you mean mixing spawn in to the sub, then I agree, that could be a problem too. I don't think mixing is inherently bad, but being too rough could damage the grain and expose the uncolonized insides.

A lot of stuff I put in the OP is because I already know what a lot of people are going to say. I was just trying to eliminate the need to say it again. But I'm open minded, if there's something I'm missing.


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18772018 - 08/29/13 07:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

When I said mixing, I meant in the aspect of mixing the coir/verm up.

One issue that has been recognized is the lack of mixing in the bucket during pasteurization.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
    #18772721 - 08/29/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I've recorded the temperature of dumping the boiling water into the bucket, which was around 195F
When it hit the thermometer just inside the bucket.

A lot of users, to achieve proper temperatures for pasteurization, wrap the bucket in clean blankets or towels.

Personally, I have a corner in my kitchen where I tuck the bucket into between my fridge and rolls of paper towels.


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OfflineMidnight Cyclone
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #18772757 - 08/29/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Another one of these...

Quote:

SBJ:
If it would properly pasteurize, then it is no longer the bucket tek I'm referring to.





Define proper pasteurization.

Quote:

TL:
A lot of users, to achieve proper temperatures for pasteurization, wrap the bucket in clean blankets or towels.





The first few times I used the bucket tek I used blankets to insulate. They worked very well, in fact the substrate was still too warm to work with (over 100) the next morning after a night of "cooling off."

The bucket tek never treated me badly... if you're using coir as your substrate and you're not using any poo or coffee grounds or things alike then the bucket tek should suffice.

The main problem/only problem I had with the bucket tek was proper moisture content.

Bucket tek works fine for coir.
Use Frank's tek for "proper" pasteurization if you're using poo+.


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Midnight Cyclone]
    #18774024 - 08/29/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Midnight Cyclone said:
Another one of these...

Quote:

SBJ:
If it would properly pasteurize, then it is no longer the bucket tek I'm referring to.





Define proper pasteurization.

Quote:

TL:
A lot of users, to achieve proper temperatures for pasteurization, wrap the bucket in clean blankets or towels.





The first few times I used the bucket tek I used blankets to insulate. They worked very well, in fact the substrate was still too warm to work with (over 100) the next morning after a night of "cooling off."

The bucket tek never treated me badly... if you're using coir as your substrate and you're not using any poo or coffee grounds or things alike then the bucket tek should suffice.

The main problem/only problem I had with the bucket tek was proper moisture content.

Bucket tek works fine for coir.
Use Frank's tek for "proper" pasteurization if you're using poo+.




Cooling also. Proper pasteurization requires cooling immediately after the heat treatment.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Midnight Cyclone]
    #18776620 - 08/30/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Midnight Cyclone said:
Define proper pasteurization.




http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary
Pasteurization - Heat treatment applied to a Substrate to destroy unwanted organisms but keeping a reduced concentration of favorable ones alive. The temperature range is 60?C to 80?C(140?F-175?F). The treatment is very different from sterilization, which aims at destroying all organisms in the substrate .


Quote:

Midnight Cyclone said:
The bucket tek never treated me badly... if you're using coir as your substrate and you're not using any poo or coffee grounds or things alike then the bucket tek should suffice.

Bucket tek works fine for coir.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18769708#18769708
Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
...not everyone has the same results and that's a fact that can't be denied.





One of my hopes with this thread is to have my eyes opened to something I've missed. I would love to have the same experience as you.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18776638 - 08/30/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

All questions don't have to be addressed at me, feel free to jump in and reply to anyone's post. I certainly don't have all the answers.


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OfflineMidnight Cyclone
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18776679 - 08/30/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pasteurization - Heat treatment applied to a Substrate to destroy unwanted organisms but keeping a reduced concentration of favorable ones alive. The temperature range is 60?C to 80?C(140?F-175?F). The treatment is very different from sterilization, which aims at destroying all organisms in the substrate.




Okay, so assuming that you can keep the bucket+substrate between those certain temperatures for 60-90 mins then the bucket tek should provide proper pasteurization. Should it not?

Minus the cooling of the substrate, like blojo pointed out. But I would imagine a very minor tweak could make it so cooling the substrate is made simpler.

I think of the bucket tek as a simpler version of using one large spawn bag and pasteurizing that on the stove. It's all or nothing no matter what and cooling the substrate in a timely manner is difficult due to the sheer volume.

I don't use Damion5050's tek anymore due to moisture content problems alone. After switching to Frank's tek where I can be sure the water content is correct prior to pasteurization, the bucket tek just becomes inferior in my mind.

If it works for you, use it to your heart's desire. If not, then stop trying to fix it and move on. I guess that's good relationship advice, too. :lol:


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Midnight Cyclone]
    #18776736 - 08/30/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Midnight Cyclone said:
Okay, so assuming that you can keep the bucket+substrate between those certain temperatures for 60-90 mins then the bucket tek should provide proper pasteurization. Should it not?





If you are keeping pasteurization temps for the proper time, as defined above, and you are doing this in a bucket, then you are just doing pasteurization in a bucket and not the bucket tek.

However, that is not the bucket tek I'm referring to.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18769708#18769708
Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
When I say "Bucket Tek", I'm referring to what's commonly called "Damion5050's Coir Tek". From now on I will call it the bucket.





The bucket tek is not pasteurization, but it does work well for many people.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18776789 - 08/30/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:


The bucket tek is not proper pasteurization, but it does work well for many people.




Fixed that for ya.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #18777606 - 08/30/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sure you have had the debate with someone before. Could you post a link for me to read?

If not, please explain the correction. The reason I ask is because your correction implies the bucket tek is pasteurization, just not proper.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18777724 - 08/30/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't pour boiling water directly on the bucket, I boil, let it sit for about five minutes and pour.  The outside of the sub when "properly pasteurizing" will usually get above 180* anyways, it is all about the internal temp that matters.

In my life, I've done probably 50 tubs and a 100+ trays.  The only times I had big contamination issues was when I was lazy with my grain spawn at the beginning.  I haven't grown in over a year because of my living situation, but I'll probably stick with it if I decide to go at it again.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18780920 - 08/31/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It's pasteurization but not proper, because the internal temperature will go above 160F.
However, this temp hurts nothing, as I've pasteurized at 180F before, without a problem.
Also, the main reason we can get away with the bucket tek using coir+verm is because of how the ingredients are prepared.
Coir bricks are super compressed shreds of coconut coir husks.
If I remember correctly, they're pressed at around 20K PSI.

The only time I've ever gotten a contam on a coir+verm tub before the 3rd or 4th flush
Was when I improperly mixed my spawn & substrate.
Luckily I noticed the mold before it spored & tossed the tub.


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