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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: qman] * 1
    #18762338 - 08/27/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

mick said:
any introductory sociology book will be littered with citations showing a high correlation between low socioeconomic status and increased crime rates. in answer to ops question, yes. take a look at detroit for your latest example.




So if we follow that line of reasoning, any city that is poorer than Detroit (on a global basis) should have more crime than Detroit, I hardly think that is the case. Detroit also has a major component that is highly correlated with crime, and it's not economic.



You may be too politically correct to say it, but I am not. That major component you speak of is black people. There is definitely a correlation between crime and African Americans. Anyone who says otherwise is full of shit


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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OnlineManianFHS
living in perverty
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 14,805
Last seen: 23 seconds
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: qman]
    #18763804 - 08/27/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

mick said:
any introductory sociology book will be littered with citations showing a high correlation between low socioeconomic status and increased crime rates. in answer to ops question, yes. take a look at detroit for your latest example.




So if we follow that line of reasoning, any city that is poorer than Detroit (on a global basis) should have more crime than Detroit, I hardly think that is the case. Detroit also has a major component that is highly correlated with crime, and it's not economic.




I said a high correlation, not 100% correlation. There are always external factors that influence a variable such as crime. But yes I would bet the farm that I can provide more examples of areas with poverty and high crime rates, than you can provide of areas with poverty and low crime rates. The correlation is higher, and if I wasn't on my phone on the shitter at work I'd dig up some resources to back that up. Maybe later haha


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18765337 - 08/27/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I'd disagree. I think it has significantly more to do with the culture than with intelligence. I suppose t could have something to do with level of education, but that draws back to poverty again. I'd be really interested to see a study on the claim of intelligence, but I doubt anyone has conducted one to date.




I don't know about that. I don't care how much education you give an unintelligent person they're still unintelligent. Some people are just dumber then others. We're all born with an intellectual capacity. I find it hard to believe there isn't a correlation between violent/petty crime & IQ. I also don't believe there isn't a correlation between poverty and IQ in places of prosperity & opportunity.

I realize that there are exceptions to every rule, and that there intelligent yet violent psychopaths. That there are intelligent people who fail at life for whatever reason, but do you really believe that intelligent people don't statistically tend to thrive and prosper more then their mentally inferior counterparts?

I mean you do know that the people that are in the county jail especially those who are habitually aren't the brightest bulbs in the box right? The same goes for government housing projects, although those two examples are often the  same segments of the populations.

I also believe that the percentage of unintelligent people that are incarcerated has to be connected to their inability to avoid detection by law enforcement, handle the police intelligently when confronted by arrest by law enforcement, and ability to afford good legal representation in court due to the fact that dumb people tend to earn less money




I'm not saying intelligence won't play a role, but I think it will play a relatively minor role compared to other values. For example, I think emotional intelligence (EQ) has a lot more to do with how a person handles a potentially stressful encounter, such as a police encounter. I also think that will play a bigger role in how they handle the perpetual stresses of low socioeconomic status and living in high crime areas.

And again, I think the cultural aspect is huge. If the culture of the area they live in is one that tolerates, condones, or even supports violent crime, then they will be much more likely to engage in it themselves. Even intelligent people will get swept up by the actions that the culture condones, but I suppose you could make an argument that those less intelligent will be more likely too. My overall point through all this rambling, though, is that intelligence will have a weaker correlation to violent crime than factors such as EQ, culture, and education.

Just to clarify, the reason I brought up education level was not to suggest that one could "teach intelligence", per say. I agree that you can't teach someone to be smarter. I was trying to imply that more education will lead to lower crime rates. I see this happening for a number of reasons including but not limited to increased opportunities for more income, a growing emotional intelligence, and increased ambition towards other goals.

Also, do you have studies to back up your claims about jail and housing projects? I would expect a small disparity perhaps, but not a large one, which is why I'm interested in seeing what the research concluded.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18766771 - 08/28/13 12:27 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I'd disagree. I think it has significantly more to do with the culture than with intelligence. I suppose t could have something to do with level of education, but that draws back to poverty again. I'd be really interested to see a study on the claim of intelligence, but I doubt anyone has conducted one to date.




I don't know about that. I don't care how much education you give an unintelligent person they're still unintelligent. Some people are just dumber then others. We're all born with an intellectual capacity. I find it hard to believe there isn't a correlation between violent/petty crime & IQ. I also don't believe there isn't a correlation between poverty and IQ in places of prosperity & opportunity.

I realize that there are exceptions to every rule, and that there intelligent yet violent psychopaths. That there are intelligent people who fail at life for whatever reason, but do you really believe that intelligent people don't statistically tend to thrive and prosper more then their mentally inferior counterparts?

I mean you do know that the people that are in the county jail especially those who are habitually aren't the brightest bulbs in the box right? The same goes for government housing projects, although those two examples are often the  same segments of the populations.

I also believe that the percentage of unintelligent people that are incarcerated has to be connected to their inability to avoid detection by law enforcement, handle the police intelligently when confronted by arrest by law enforcement, and ability to afford good legal representation in court due to the fact that dumb people tend to earn less money




I'm not saying intelligence won't play a role, but I think it will play a relatively minor role compared to other values. For example, I think emotional intelligence (EQ) has a lot more to do with how a person handles a potentially stressful encounter, such as a police encounter. I also think that will play a bigger role in how they handle the perpetual stresses of low socioeconomic status and living in high crime areas.

And again, I think the cultural aspect is huge. If the culture of the area they live in is one that tolerates, condones, or even supports violent crime, then they will be much more likely to engage in it themselves. Even intelligent people will get swept up by the actions that the culture condones, but I suppose you could make an argument that those less intelligent will be more likely too. My overall point through all this rambling, though, is that intelligence will have a weaker correlation to violent crime than factors such as EQ, culture, and education.

Just to clarify, the reason I brought up education level was not to suggest that one could "teach intelligence", per say. I agree that you can't teach someone to be smarter. I was trying to imply that more education will lead to lower crime rates. I see this happening for a number of reasons including but not limited to increased opportunities for more income, a growing emotional intelligence, and increased ambition towards other goals.

Also, do you have studies to back up your claims about jail and housing projects? I would expect a small disparity perhaps, but not a large one, which is why I'm interested in seeing what the research concluded.




I will look for more studies, especially those related to your specific request. In the meantime I thought this was relevant to our discussion.

http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED429148
Quote:

From the link
The analysis suggests that those of below-average intelligence would still earn less than their peers with higher IQs. It is concluded that policy analysts must stop avoiding the reality of human inequality.




--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18769558 - 08/28/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

That last sentence, "It is concluded that..." suggested to me right away that that wasn't a peer-reviewed article, or at least not a good one. It also suggests that the researcher(s) may have had a predetermined bias. So I looked into it, and it turns out its not peer reviewed. I realize you never claimed it to be, but I'm pointing out that I don't find that source particularly credible.

It was a book (you can find the full text here)published by the AEI, a think-tank that has had its fair share of controversy in the past. A book published by the same author 4 years earlier, which argued a similar point, was discredited by Cornell economist John Cawley in this paper. The book you cited references that book a lot, but I haven't yet had time to read it in its entirety to know if that influenced the conclusion at all. However, Cawley et al. found "Our second point is that measured cognitive ability and schooling are so highly correlated that one cannot separate their effects without imposing strong, arbitrary parametric structure in estimation which, when tested, is rejected by the data."

So I did some digging of my own and found some more studies which show some bias in that book you cited. To me it seems they looked at the data selectively to shape their conclusion. For example, this study, uses the same data set and comes to this conclusion.

"This research shows that each point increase in IQ test scores raises income by between $234 and $616 per year after holding a variety of factors constant. Regression results suggest no statistically distinguishable relationship between IQ scores and wealth. Financial distress, such as problems paying bills, going bankrupt or reaching credit card limits, is related to IQ scores not linearly but instead in a quadratic relationship. This means higher IQ scores sometimes increase the probability of being in financial difficulty."

And in a quote of his, in this article, he says "being more intelligent does not confer any advantage along two of the three key dimensions of financial success (income, net worth and financial distress)"


This one, published at Dartmouth university writes "Overall the evidence on conditional correlations between cognitive ability and financial decisions is limited, and mixed."

So I don't think that you can draw a conclusion and say that people with a lower IQ are more likely to be poor. There appears to be quite the wealth of evidence refuting that theory actually, or at least demonstrating that the effect is difficult to measure, and modest when found.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18769613 - 08/28/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:



There appears to be quite the wealth of evidence refuting that theory actually,


If there is you haven't provided any
Quote:

or at least demonstrating that the effect is difficult to measure, and modest when found.




I agree that it may be hard to measure but why am I not surprised that the community of social scientists has difficulty accepting the notion that stand alone intelligence is fiscally advantageous?


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18769661 - 08/28/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If there is you haven't provided any




You mean aside from the three studies I posted which all found that IQ does not correlate strongly to wealth?

Quote:

I agree that it may be hard to measure but why am I not surprised that the community of social scientists has difficulty accepting the notion that stand alone intelligence is fiscally advantageous?




They don't necessarily have difficulty accepting it, they have difficulty proving it. It might seem intuitive, but not all things that are intuitive are true.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18769681 - 08/28/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

If there is you haven't provided any




You mean aside from the three studies I posted which all found that IQ does not correlate strongly to wealth?




They found no statstically significant correlation.  That does not mean there isn't one.  They just didn't find one.  Do you know what "statistically significant" means?
Quote:



Quote:

I agree that it may be hard to measure but why am I not surprised that the community of social scientists has difficulty accepting the notion that stand alone intelligence is fiscally advantageous?




They don't necessarily have difficulty accepting it, they have difficulty proving it. It might seem intuitive, but not all things that are intuitive are true.




I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18769727 - 08/28/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

They found no statstically significant correlation.  That does not mean there isn't one.  They just didn't find one.  Do you know what "statistically significant" means?




No need to get callous. Them not finding a correlation is evidence that it doesn't exist. Them finding a correlation is evidence that it does exist. They didn't find one.

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?

With the book that Simplicitry posted, the bias was clear to me, but it was opposite than the bias you are suggesting.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18769771 - 08/28/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

They found no statstically significant correlation.  That does not mean there isn't one.  They just didn't find one.  Do you know what "statistically significant" means?




No need to get callous. Them not finding a correlation is evidence that it doesn't exist. Them finding a correlation is evidence that it does exist. They didn't find one.




So you don't know what it means.  It most certainly is NOT evidence that it doesn't exist.  Do you know what the confidence threshold is for finding statistically significant effects are?  A failure to establish significant finding can be due to a whole host of factors utterly unrelated to whether it exists in fact or not.  You would need a study proving beyond a statistical certainly that it is not correlated.  Show me that one.  Failure to prove something is not proof of the opposite.
Quote:



Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?

With the book that Simplicitry posted, the bias was clear to me, but it was opposite than the bias you are suggesting.




You saw bias but don't even know what statistical significance means.  Not every single social scientist is a liberal weenie.  Just 95% of them.


--------------------


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18769786 - 08/28/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

If there is you haven't provided any




You mean aside from the three studies I posted which all found that IQ does not correlate strongly to wealth?




Wealth & income are very different things from the studies that I read the other day before any of your request itseems there doesn't seem to be a strong  correlation between I.Q.and inherited wealth (I really don't find that surprising) but many of the studies I read found a correlation between I.Q. and income. There seems to be some consensus on that point in many studies with much disagreement as to why.

I was also surprised that in researching that there seems to be little dispute that there is an IQ gap between white and black Americans. Again in this situation there's argument over what  the reasons for this are but little dispute that the gap actually does exist

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
They don't necessarily have difficulty accepting it, they have difficulty proving it. It might seem intuitive, but not all things that are intuitive are true.




It does seem intuitive to me and I believe it to be true. But I am on the hunt for sources starting now. I'll get back to you on that before the end of the night


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18769816 - 08/28/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So you don't know what it means.  It most certainly is NOT evidence that it doesn't exist.  Do you know what the confidence threshold is for finding statistically significant effects are?  A failure to establish significant finding can be due to a whole host of factors utterly unrelated to whether it exists in fact or not.  You would need a study proving beyond a statistical certainly that it is not correlated.  Show me that one.  Failure to prove something is not proof of the opposite.




I never said prove. I never argued that the correlation doesn't exist. I just said that their is evidence suggesting it doesn't. The fact that they couldn't find that correlation is evidence suggesting it doesn't exist.

Quote:

You saw bias but don't even know what statistical significance means.  Not every single social scientist is a liberal weenie.  Just 95% of them.




As opposed to personal attacks about things I supposedly don't know (I've worked in three separate research labs, and just published a paper last year. I've got a pretty good understanding of what makes something statistically significant), why don't you answer my question?

What in their methodology introduced bias?

I can point directly to what introduced bias in Murray's book. It was an incomplete analysis and presentation of the data. Your turn.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18769836 - 08/28/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wealth & income are very different things from the studies that I read the other day before any of your request itseems there doesn't seem to be a strong  correlation between I.Q.and inherited wealth (I really don't find that surprising) but many of the studies I read found a correlation between I.Q. and income. There seems to be some consensus on that point in many studies with much disagreement as to why.




I agree. Several studies found correlations between IQ and income, but that didn't lead to a correlation between IQ and wealth. This isn't necessarily the result of inherited wealth. A couple authors speculated on some reasons, but were unable to provide much evidence. It could be anything from living different life styles to answering the survey questions more accurately. Regardless, they didn't find a correlation IQ and wealth.

Quote:

I was also surprised that in researching that there seems to be little dispute that there is an IQ gap between white and black Americans. Again in this situation there's argument over what  the reasons for this are but little dispute that the gap actually does exist




Can you please link one of the studies you found?

Quote:

t does seem intuitive to me and I believe it to be true. But I am on the hunt for sources starting now. I'll get back to you on that before the end of the night




It seemed intuitive to me. I always assumed intelligence played a role, I just thought other factors would play a bigger one.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18769865 - 08/28/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

So you don't know what it means.  It most certainly is NOT evidence that it doesn't exist.  Do you know what the confidence threshold is for finding statistically significant effects are?  A failure to establish significant finding can be due to a whole host of factors utterly unrelated to whether it exists in fact or not.  You would need a study proving beyond a statistical certainly that it is not correlated.  Show me that one.  Failure to prove something is not proof of the opposite.




I never said prove. I never argued that the correlation doesn't exist. I just said that their is evidence suggesting it doesn't. The fact that they couldn't find that correlation is evidence suggesting it doesn't exist.




No, it is not.  You are flat out wrong.  It is evidence of nothing at all.
Quote:



Quote:

You saw bias but don't even know what statistical significance means.  Not every single social scientist is a liberal weenie.  Just 95% of them.




As opposed to personal attacks about things I supposedly don't know (I've worked in three separate research labs, and just published a paper last year. I've got a pretty good understanding of what makes something statistically significant), why don't you answer my question?




No you do not.  Clearly.
Quote:



What in their methodology introduced bias?

I can point directly to what introduced bias in Murray's book. It was an incomplete analysis and presentation of the data. Your turn.




OK do it.

Your Dartmouth link abstract:
Quote:


Recent work on intertemporal choice has varied
the specification of every key aspect of
modeling except the opportunity cost of
consumption. We present evidence that
consumers have present-biased perceptions of
this parameter: they tend to underestimate
the cost of short-term borrowing and the retu
rn to long-term saving. We develop a new
theory that fits this evidence and is based on a more general cognitive tendency to
underestimate exponential growth. The theory generates distinct, behavioral predictions
about relationships between biased perception
s and portfolio choice, wealth levels, and
the use and benefits of financial advice. Th
ese predictions are borne out in microdata




Not relevant

Your USA Today article doesn't present a methodology.  Or even findings.  Just a selected bit of bullshit from a journalist.  Regarding the AEI thing I call your attention to figure 2-1.


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18769954 - 08/28/13 07:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

No, it is not.  You are flat out wrong.  It is evidence of nothing at all.




We are clearly at an impasse, and I'd rather not get insulted further.

Quote:

No you do not.  Clearly.




Very funny. Do tell me, what did I say that gave you your wondrous epiphany? Stop trying to make this personal when you obviously have no basis with which to judge my experience of statistical analysis and let's debate the actual issue at hand. Ad hominem does not help you prove your point. If for some reason your curiosity is burning, I can explain to you my exact contribution to the paper, and how it revolved entirely around statistical significance.

Quote:

OK do it.




I already did. A separate peer-reviewed study (not just a book from a think-tank), analyzed the exact same data and drew the same conclusion as the book. IQ and income are correlated. The study, however, presented the rest of their findings, that IQ and wealth are not correlated.

Quote:


Your Dartmouth link abstract:
Quote:


Recent work on intertemporal choice has varied
the specification of every key aspect of
modeling except the opportunity cost of
consumption. We present evidence that
consumers have present-biased perceptions of
this parameter: they tend to underestimate
the cost of short-term borrowing and the retu
rn to long-term saving. We develop a new
theory that fits this evidence and is based on a more general cognitive tendency to
underestimate exponential growth. The theory generates distinct, behavioral predictions
about relationships between biased perception
s and portfolio choice, wealth levels, and
the use and benefits of financial advice. Th
ese predictions are borne out in microdata




Not relevant






This is just one of the studies I presented, and it still doesn't answer my question. An abstract is not a methodology.

Quote:

Your USA Today article doesn't present a methodology.  Or even findings.  Just a selected bit of bullshit from a journalist. 




Please quote me where I suggest it is a study with a methodology, or where I use findings from it as evidence or data. I merely used it to provide a source for a quote from a researcher. Are you noticing any bias in your statements?

Quote:

Regarding the AEI thing I call your attention to figure 2-1.




Figure 2-1 is off-topic to what I am arguing. I never argued there wasn't a correlation between income and IQ. I'm arguing that multiple separate researchers were unable to find a correlation between IQ and wealth. Figure 2-1 has no relation to that.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18770076 - 08/28/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

No, it is not.  You are flat out wrong.  It is evidence of nothing at all.




We are clearly at an impasse, and I'd rather not get insulted further.




Telling you you are wrong is not an insult.  Telling you that you are an idiot is but I did not do that.  Any time.
Quote:



Quote:

No you do not.  Clearly.




Very funny. Do tell me, what did I say that gave you your wondrous epiphany? Stop trying to make this personal when you obviously have no basis with which to judge my experience of statistical analysis and let's debate the actual issue at hand. Ad hominem does not help you prove your point. If for some reason your curiosity is burning, I can explain to you my exact contribution to the paper, and how it revolved entirely around statistical significance.




I'm not making this personal.  You are spouting bullshit and me pointing that out is not the least bit personal.
Quote:



Quote:

OK do it.




I already did. A separate peer-reviewed study (not just a book from a think-tank), analyzed the exact same data and drew the same conclusion as the book. IQ and income are correlated. The study, however, presented the rest of their findings, that IQ and wealth are not correlated.




Which one?
Quote:



Quote:


Your Dartmouth link abstract:
Quote:


Recent work on intertemporal choice has varied
the specification of every key aspect of
modeling except the opportunity cost of
consumption. We present evidence that
consumers have present-biased perceptions of
this parameter: they tend to underestimate
the cost of short-term borrowing and the retu
rn to long-term saving. We develop a new
theory that fits this evidence and is based on a more general cognitive tendency to
underestimate exponential growth. The theory generates distinct, behavioral predictions
about relationships between biased perception
s and portfolio choice, wealth levels, and
the use and benefits of financial advice. Th
ese predictions are borne out in microdata




Not relevant






This is just one of the studies I presented, and it still doesn't answer my question. An abstract is not a methodology.




Why should I comment on the methodology of a study that has no relevance to the discussion at hand?
Quote:



Quote:

Your USA Today article doesn't present a methodology.  Or even findings.  Just a selected bit of bullshit from a journalist. 




Please quote me where I suggest it is a study with a methodology, or where I use findings from it as evidence or data. I merely used it to provide a source for a quote from a researcher. Are you noticing any bias in your statements?

Quote:

Regarding the AEI thing I call your attention to figure 2-1.




Figure 2-1 is off-topic to what I am arguing. I never argued there wasn't a correlation between income and IQ. I'm arguing that multiple separate researchers were unable to find a correlation between IQ and wealth. Figure 2-1 has no relation to that.




Do you not think wealth is correlated with income?:flowstone:


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18770164 - 08/28/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Telling you you are wrong is not an insult.  Telling you that you are an idiot is but I did not do that.  Any time.




Not what I was referring to.

Quote:

I'm not making this personal.  You are spouting bullshit and me pointing that out is not the least bit personal.




Disagreeing with me is not personal. Insisting, multiple times, that I don't know what statistical significance is, is. It implies that I am too stupid to follow your arguments or argue the topic. And you have no evidence for your assertion.

Quote:

Which one?




The one published by Zagorksy. Looking back at my post this was my error. I quoted the study but forgot to link it. The link is here.

Quote:

Why should I comment on the methodology of a study that has no relevance to the discussion at hand?




You could comment on the methodology of the studies that do. Again, I posted more than just one study. This one uses IQ in their explanation of results, but you're right, it is not a direct study on the matter.

However, I just stumbled across one that is. And it directly agrees with me. Care to find the bias in it's methodology?  From their abstract: "We find that IQ affects health, but not wealth or happiness." And from their results section : "The positive effect of IQ does not survive if we control for schooling and family background: wealth derives from schooling, not from “raw ability”."

Quote:

Do you not think wealth is correlated with income?:flowstone:




I never said that. I said there is evidence to suggest that IQ and wealth aren't correlated. For someone who made such a big fuss about evidence and statistical significance before, you should know that this figure isn't direct evidence that IQ and wealth are correlated.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18770919 - 08/28/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I said there is a correlation between intelligence and income. Not intelligence and wealth.
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Wealth & income are very different things from the studies that I read the other day before any of your request itseems there doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between I.Q.and inherited wealth (I really don't find that surprising) but many of the studies I read found a correlation between I.Q. and income. There seems to be some consensus on that point in many studies with much disagreement as to why.




and it would appear that you would agree with me. Do you in anyway disagree? our original discussion was about income not wealth.
Quote:

Boldaslove said:
I never argued there wasn't a correlation between income and IQ.



Quote:

Boldaslove said:
I agree. Several studies found correlations between IQ and income




Besides poor people obviously don't have wealth so  wealth becomes a moot point. I would have to assume by your previous statements that you agree with my position


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Edited by Simplicitry (08/28/13 10:50 PM)


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Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18771539 - 08/29/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Wealth correlates with IQ up to a point. Beyond that point the most intelligent will see through the money = self worth deception and move on to other things.

I think that point comes at around 120 on the Cattell scale.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18774173 - 08/29/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Telling you you are wrong is not an insult.  Telling you that you are an idiot is but I did not do that.  Any time.




Not what I was referring to.

Quote:

I'm not making this personal.  You are spouting bullshit and me pointing that out is not the least bit personal.




Disagreeing with me is not personal. Insisting, multiple times, that I don't know what statistical significance is, is. It implies that I am too stupid to follow your arguments or argue the topic. And you have no evidence for your assertion.




You keep proving that you don't know what it means every time you say that a failure to find one is evidence of the opposite proposition.  This is not clear thinking
Quote:



Quote:

Which one?




The one published by Zagorksy. Looking back at my post this was my error. I quoted the study but forgot to link it. The link is here.




Thanks for clearing that up.  I actually went back to try to find what you were talking about and, surprise, it wasn't there.
Quote:



Quote:

Why should I comment on the methodology of a study that has no relevance to the discussion at hand?




You could comment on the methodology of the studies that do. Again, I posted more than just one study. This one uses IQ in their explanation of results, but you're right, it is not a direct study on the matter.




I know I'm right.
Quote:



However, I just stumbled across one that is. And it directly agrees with me. Care to find the bias in it's methodology?  From their abstract: "We find that IQ affects health, but not wealth or happiness." And from their results section : "The positive effect of IQ does not survive if we control for schooling and family background: wealth derives from schooling, not from “raw ability”."




I don't need to comment on their methodology because I read the abstract and it starts with this

Quote:

We explore the effect of schooling on health, wealth and happiness for a cohort of Dutch
individuals born around 1940.





Once again, schooling is not intelligence
Quote:


Quote:

Do you not think wealth is correlated with income?:flowstone:




I never said that. I said there is evidence to suggest that IQ and wealth aren't correlated. For someone who made such a big fuss about evidence and statistical significance before, you should know that this figure isn't direct evidence that IQ and wealth are correlated.




If IQ is correlated with income and income is correlated with wealth it would strike me that there would also be a strong correlation between wealth and IQ, although, as has been pointed out, that wasn't the argument you were responding to.  Further you have failed to disprove a realtionship.


--------------------


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