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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18762445 - 08/27/13 03:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
Someone has to...

I personally would not wish upon his children (assuming he has them) the sort of pain I felt and still do and will until the day I die, born of the rift in my soul my fathers death has created.




This crap is not uncommon within the medical profession unfortunately.  I rarely take their word on anything.  Why did not your father seek a second opinion?  Seems the responsible and wise thing to do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Icelander]
    #18763723 - 08/27/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
Sad to think how many others may suffer due to his incompetence however.




Tizz my dilemma...
I've basically let it go out of forgiveness and don't think about it often.
But when I stop to think about it and as the number of times thinking about it accumulate, the moral aspect of not doing something bugs me.

We tried to sue the insurance company which employs him, but were immediately informed by the lawyer we hired that trying to sue such a large corporation will result in them financially running us into the ground through their ability to drag out the court proceedings.
Recently, I have came to the personal conclusion that my mom gave up easy, due to her


Quote:

Icelander said:


This crap is not uncommon within the medical profession unfortunately.  I rarely take their word on anything.  Why did not your father seek a second opinion?  Seems the responsible and wise thing to do.




My father had little reason not to trust his opinion, as he thought it was just the typical aches and pains of getting old and working in a somewhat physical career field.
There was a cancer scare several years before and the second opinion he got agreed with his primary doctor. Either because he too, was lazy and incompetent or just read through his report and was all- "Well, dats likely, I got other things 2 deal wif today" :flowstone:


Unfortunately, the blatant signs were not apparent until it was too late. The cancer had metastasized throughout his entire body. His body did an incredible job of not giving up the ghost for a lack of better words.
It was 2 weeks between his diagnoses and death and in between that short time, I watched him transform from a normal man, into a holocaustesque gaunt skeleton.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18763997 - 08/27/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Tizz my dilemma...
I've basically let it go out of forgiveness and don't think about it often.
But when I stop to think about it and as the number of times thinking about it accumulate, the moral aspect of not doing something bugs me.


The people have indirectly chosen this man as doctor, so you're having irrational compassion IMO.


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As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18764126 - 08/27/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Rationality to me seems to be dependent on a desired outcome to that which one perceives as rational in order for it to be so.

and I'm honestly not quite sure what you mean about the compassion.
Care to break it down?


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18764259 - 08/27/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You feel sorry or care for current and future patients of this doctor, but ultimately these patients/people have indirectly chosen this doctor to be a doctor.

No reason to feel sorry IMO.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: liquidlounge] * 1
    #18764309 - 08/27/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I think this man chose himself to be a doctor, all the work and debt he put himself into so he could make a lot of money being a lousy doctor.
Takes a lot of time and dedication.

I think it's fair to expect a man whose gone through lots of schooling to be capable of doing efficiently what he was taught to do.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18764400 - 08/27/13 03:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I think this man chose himself to be a doctor, all the work and debt he put himself into so he could make a lot of money being a lousy doctor.
Takes a lot of time and dedication.


Yes, but he's a product of society.

I think it's fair to expect a man whose gone through lots of schooling to be capable of doing efficiently what he was taught to do.

Is there something wrong with the man, society or both?

Why would a healthy society be so fucked up as to create such an irresponsible man as doctor?


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18764792 - 08/27/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't see it as a matter of right or wrong.
There is nothing inherently 'wrong' with the suffering he spreads, but you can count on the majority of people not being happy with it or him and it effecting the collective well being of the people.
It is a reflection of his shortcomings, our shortcomings.

It makes me think of the ten commandments, I do not see them as the word of 'God' itself, but the wisdom brought into the tribe by the shaman figure as simple guidelines for maintaining peace and health within' the tribe.


Yes, he is a product of society, but society is also a product and reflection of us, and can be molded and changed, like ourselves.
We are responsible to some degree in how we shape ourselves and detail the experiences and enculturation we are given.

There are many things in my life which I have had no control, I did not choose for my dad to die.

Yet-
There are many directions I could have gone with that grief, I could have allowed it to make me a very bitter, closed off person. I could channel (and still can) my pain into a sort of malice that I can direct toward others.
I could also just be lazy with the wisdom gained and do nothing with it, or let my wounds fester and do nothing with them, remain stagnant.

I have chosen to look deep into the pain and the awareness of my mortality his death has brought and learn more about it, and cultivate awareness and empathy from it and share it with others.
This is choice and requires self discipline.

We may not have total control over who we are, but we can certainly influence what we do with that and how it is expressed.
I see it as symbiotic, and I see it as a form of diffusion of responsibility to blame solely societal/cultural influences and ignore the subjective world of humans from which these societies and cultures are born from to begin with
Just another excuse not to look within.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18764922 - 08/27/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't see it as a matter of right or wrong.

If you don't want people to suffer due to a terrible doctor, the doctor is most certainly wrong in your opinion? Moral aspect as you wrote.

Yes, he is a product of society, but society is also a product and reflection of us, and can be molded and changed, like ourselves.

The people indirectly chose this man as a doctor.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: liquidlounge] * 2
    #18765026 - 08/27/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It doesn't need to be wrong. I honestly don't know what that is when I really think about it.

It conflicts with what is in my heart. And because it does, doesn't make it right or wrong, it doesn't give it whatever these qualities are.

I think of it more from a health perspective, this doctor is just not functioning properly and needs to be realigned to serve the function it was designed for.

People go to the doctor for help, and through the trusted company he works for, are assured great care through various mediums.
Malpractice is malpractice,  I don't see any need to assign and focus on blame, as the circumstances that allow it to flourish are dependent on the people in need, the doctor himself as well as the company he works for that touts great care.

Why concern ourselves with blame when we can put that energy toward finding resolve?


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18765050 - 08/27/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Why concern ourselves with blame when we can put that energy toward finding resolve?

Why bother?

As previously written, the man creates this doctor through society. Fuck 'em.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18765064 - 08/27/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
Quote:

Cactilove said:
Sad to think how many others may suffer due to his incompetence however.




Tizz my dilemma...
I've basically let it go out of forgiveness and don't think about it often.
But when I stop to think about it and as the number of times thinking about it accumulate, the moral aspect of not doing something bugs me.

We tried to sue the insurance company which employs him, but were immediately informed by the lawyer we hired that trying to sue such a large corporation will result in them financially running us into the ground through their ability to drag out the court proceedings.
Recently, I have came to the personal conclusion that my mom gave up easy, due to her


Quote:

Icelander said:


This crap is not uncommon within the medical profession unfortunately.  I rarely take their word on anything.  Why did not your father seek a second opinion?  Seems the responsible and wise thing to do.




My father had little reason not to trust his opinion, as he thought it was just the typical aches and pains of getting old and working in a somewhat physical career field.
There was a cancer scare several years before and the second opinion he got agreed with his primary doctor. Either because he too, was lazy and incompetent or just read through his report and was all- "Well, dats likely, I got other things 2 deal wif today" :flowstone:


Unfortunately, the blatant signs were not apparent until it was too late. The cancer had metastasized throughout his entire body. His body did an incredible job of not giving up the ghost for a lack of better words.
It was 2 weeks between his diagnoses and death and in between that short time, I watched him transform from a normal man, into a holocaustesque gaunt skeleton.





Well he may have been very lucky and you must consider that also.  Much of the pain in cancers comes from the treatment.  My brother in law is going through that now.  While they predict several years before the cancer kills him in the mean time the radiation and chemo has made his life a living hell.  And I do mean a living hell.  He spends his nights and days moaning in pain, unable to walk and waiting for the next dose of pain meds with no guarantee things are going to get any better.  I think I'd have rather been your dad.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Icelander]
    #18765166 - 08/27/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Once again, I see that as diffusion of responsibility and excuses his responsibility for himself and puts it onto others who do not directly control the medium of science and its practice in which he was trained.
(another excuse not to look at ourselves, and within ourselves.)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Well he may have been very lucky and you must consider that also.  Much of the pain in cancers comes from the treatment.  My brother in law is going through that now.  While they predict several years before the cancer kills him in the mean time the radiation and chemo has made his life a living hell.  And I do mean a living hell.  He spends his nights and days moaning in pain, unable to walk and waiting for the next dose of pain meds with no guarantee things are going to get any better.  I think I'd have rather been your dad.




Indeed, a couple months after my Dad died, I watched my uncle go through that shit. He did not die as comfortable of death (if you can call it that) as my Dad.

All of this of course turned me onto understanding cancer and the business behind cancer.
This man is onto something.



--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18765275 - 08/27/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

We usually all live to long imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Icelander]
    #18765374 - 08/27/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

All just working to find 'dem ways to avoid having to face for real our fear of dying that much longer. :lol:


--------------------
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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 1
    #18765585 - 08/27/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Powerful stuff, Raven.  Your words are piercing, and inspiring. 

As to this man-child of a doctor,

If deep interest in a subject was the primary guiding factor in the reason for career and education, and if the education system put more effort in the development of interest in students throughout their years in school, and weeded out the disinterested... wait, there I go dreaming again.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18767140 - 08/28/13 03:43 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
All just working to find 'dem ways to avoid having to face for real our fear of dying that much longer. :lol:




Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
This man is onto something.






http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18751244


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18962505 - 10/11/13 03:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You are just children without power.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Jaegar] * 1
    #18962512 - 10/11/13 03:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jaegar said:
You are just children without power.




We all are but like to pretend otherwise. :thumbup:


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18962598 - 10/11/13 04:40 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah we are all god but deceive ourselves from the inevitable truth. LOL


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