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Invisiblechooken
Between the Earth and Sky
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Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 2,009
Loc: Aus Flag
I've hit a wall
    #18764433 - 08/27/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

How could someone progress towards happiness and peace when something they are born with is immoral? I don't really want to go into detail because it will cause me to be viewed negatively but if you're quick you might pick it up.

I can't just change it, it's built in on the same level as sexual orientation. I can ignore it further but that will only pull me further from where I want to be - affecting my sense of self worth, confidence and social skills. Is it possible for someone to transcend something built in on such a level if they view it as bad?

Sure, I am not ever going to act on it - but if everyone on the planet were like me, the ones with little self control would cause a lot of pain. I feel cursed which sucks. I was going so good until it clicked that this was the main thing keeping me back in everything I wanted to progress in :frown:

I suddenly feel stuck.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: chooken] * 1
    #18764595 - 08/27/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Orientation may be hard-wired, but object-orientation is probably learned, even at a very young age. I know where my blond fetish began. Doesn't matter. I married a Black female who clearly is not, nor will she ever be, blonde. One takes control over the irrational because a life led by irrationality is madness, and it pays a huge price. I also  remember the scent of patent leather from my mother's closet in the 1950s. That has little control over my behaviors. I have attempted to treat people with certain obsessions as a therapist, but some people are infantile in their development, and want what they want when they want it. That attitude is behind addictions of every kind, and unfortunately, it can be found among the most heinous of Dissocial (formerly Antisocial) Personality Disordered people.

If you do not know the source of your fetishistic yearnings, it is time to seek professional help in order to uncover the source, especially if it is in a domain that will harm others and get you thrown in prison. I have seen the harm done to kids, for example, from child sexual abuse. Fetishes, obsessions, compulsions, and impulses that defy moral, ethical, societal, and legal constraints need to be controlled before they cause suffering to others, but one has to leave the fatalistic, "I can't change it" attitude behind, because that attitude simply defies any possibility of change.

In any addiction, the 12 Step model works because it is very much like classic Yoga philosophy which seeks to eliminate the grosser, cruder obstacles to happiness, and only gradually refines that cleansing process. So, it is in your best interest, and the society to which you belong, to take responsibility in eliminating a destructive element in your psyche, and not in justifying a variation of sexual desire which is not grounded in normal biological or social functioning with consenting members of society. I'm thinking of Lon Chaney, Jr. as 'The Wolfman,' who asked to be locked in a cell during the night of the full moon. Now that was a responsible werewolf!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSse
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Registered: 12/28/12
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: chooken]
    #18764634 - 08/27/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

ultimately you are the one judging yourself and allowing others to water negative seeds within you. Every time a thought arises watch it, understand its origin and dissolve back to where these thoughts originally took form. It was originally a blank canvas, painted by your environment, you didn't have full control at the time of these conditionings, none of us did. But now that you understand that it is all a conditioned part of the world around you then you can continue to work on dissolving these conditioned labels.

I am in a similar boat of something so ingrained in my being that I don't think I will be able to transcend. I'm not worried about the end result of transcending. I am focused on the here and now and not causing myself unnecessary strife.

The seed you sow is what will show, if you keep sowing negative seeds then that is the plant that will grow. If you consciously cultivate your mind then there will be less and less negative seeds being sown. Every single thought counts. Each thought is a seed.

These thoughts will likely rise for a long time, perhaps your whole life but that doesn't mean you can't endure and strongly dwell in what is most positive. It's all we can really do to maintain because the opposite direction is only going to lead you further into darkness but the darkness and the light are inseparable. Some people don't find their strength until they fall very deep into the shadows, then realization occurs.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (08/27/13 04:05 PM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: I've hit a wall [Re: chooken]
    #18765274 - 08/27/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Most people will tell you to sacrifice who you are for the sake of society and other people.  But if doing so only leads to unhappiness, self-denial, and the impossibility of ever realizing the full expression of your Being, what's the point?  Of course, this is a selfish perspective, but in the end we all have to live our lives as individuals and you alone will feel the pleasures and pains your decisions produce as consequences.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblechooken
Between the Earth and Sky
Male

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 2,009
Loc: Aus Flag
Re: I've hit a wall [Re: Sse]
    #18766960 - 08/28/13 01:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I thank the 3 of you :smile: These points of view helped a lot

This hit me so hard as the majority of my life I've always been a very peaceful person but it felt like all this time there has been something just not right under the surface. Although I've been aware of this part of me since I was young, I never really looked directly at it until a day or 2 ago which caused me to research a little. After reading that people with this same condition have lower IQ, poor memory, increased likelyhood of being left handed, physically shorter, poor social skills and low self esteem it was kind of like a big kick to the balls because that represents me exactly. It seems like this is the cause of the biggest problems I've faced my life.

Quote:

Sse said:
ultimately you are the one judging yourself and allowing others to water negative seeds within you. Every time a thought arises watch it, understand its origin and dissolve back to where these thoughts originally took form. It was originally a blank canvas, painted by your environment, you didn't have full control at the time of these conditionings, none of us did. But now that you understand that it is all a conditioned part of the world around you then you can continue to work on dissolving these conditioned labels.




I have a feeling that this may also be genetic - which explains why my dad likes to be either alone or with only a few people, even though he's quite skilled socially (just speculation - but we share a fair few traits). Although I am definitely progressing socially myself! If something like this were to be genetic - is that possible to overcome? People say a gay can't change the way they are (which I agree (and I see nothing immoral about gays)), so does this transfer across to my situation if it's genetic and not conditioned? I don't want to be working towards getting rid of something I should be embracing/accepting (some how?). Well, I have accepted that is how I am, I just can't really find any way to be happy about it.

Quote:

Sse said:
The seed you sow is what will show, if you keep sowing negative seeds then that is the plant that will grow. If you consciously cultivate your mind then there will be less and less negative seeds being sown. Every single thought counts. Each thought is a seed.




This is what I have been working at for a while now but I feel I need to deal with the parts of me I don't feel good about before I can develop a solid understanding of who I am and in the process eliminate my self worth issue, which is what kills any confidence and real connection with people.

It helps immensely to have some place I can talk about this as it's not something I'd really bring up with anyone ever.


Edited by chooken (08/28/13 04:57 AM)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: chooken]
    #18767268 - 08/28/13 05:40 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

chooken said:
How could someone progress towards happiness and peace when something they are born with is immoral? I don't really want to go into detail because it will cause me to be viewed negatively but if you're quick you might pick it up.


I suddenly feel stuck.




Progress is sort of overrated But consider that (they say now) 14 billion years it took for the Earth to sprout you. That's also an immortal process with you as the star, and yet you still progress.

Also there's no telling the limits to human stupidity, here  are 14 billion years later and the only good sport we've developed is Football. Football is precolumbian.


--------------------
...or something







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Offlinelolwut
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: chooken]
    #18767320 - 08/28/13 06:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

chooken said:
How could someone progress towards happiness and peace when something they are born with is immoral? I don't really want to go into detail because it will cause me to be viewed negatively but if you're quick you might pick it up.

I can't just change it, it's built in on the same level as sexual orientation. I can ignore it further but that will only pull me further from where I want to be - affecting my sense of self worth, confidence and social skills. Is it possible for someone to transcend something built in on such a level if they view it as bad?

Sure, I am not ever going to act on it - but if everyone on the planet were like me, the ones with little self control would cause a lot of pain. I feel cursed which sucks. I was going so good until it clicked that this was the main thing keeping me back in everything I wanted to progress in :frown:

I suddenly feel stuck.




Hit a wall? Bounce off it


--------------------
Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth, and taste...

:haha:


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: I've hit a wall [Re: lolwut]
    #18767326 - 08/28/13 06:21 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Stop living as thoughts/desires/emotions

Nature helps

Realize that is not who you are...
the 'voice' in your head is not who you are, it can guide you, or it can destroy you if you follow it

Only do what makes sense.. you are in control of your own mind

Do what brings happiness to you and others

Desires create more desires, frustration, attachment, suffering ... they trap you, just like thoughts do if you overthink everything, just be

Nature, simple lifestyle, meditation helps remove thoughts/desires
desires rarely create happiness when they're everyday

Stop doing what makes you unhappy, keep doing what makes you happy
That is how to learn from mistakes, which can make you happy if you follow it
If something makes you unhappy you know it is wrong.... because inner self is never wrong

Give it a try, but if it doesn't work you might have to see someone about those thoughts perhaps if you cannot control them
Avoid stress in your life at all costs, it can make you live as your thoughts/desires/emotions


Edited by lessismore (08/28/13 06:27 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: chooken]
    #18767415 - 08/28/13 07:28 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I will link you to one of the most moving films I have seen. I was deeply sobbing in parts. A reason why it was so moving, because I also emphasized with the homophobic mum. To be caught up in SUCH a false worldview and pay the ultimate sacrifice, losing your child, which you then blame yourself for---I cannot imagine anything more heartbreaking. But I also sobbed for the young dude who was going through all this abuse and pain, and the whole thing of it. I think this film--unless you have already seen it--could be really cathartic for you and allow you to express the complex emotions you must be feeling

Please understand that you have nothing to be ashamed of, and that you must embrace who you are and live...be glad you not living in these places (from a long list of homophobic places where being gay is not much fun because of insane people) Russia, Iran, or Uganda...I am gay by the way :smile:I was told that 'GAY' means 'Good As You'

Prayers For Bobby (2009) Gay, Full Movie




Edited by zzripz (08/28/13 10:09 AM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: chooken]
    #18767970 - 08/28/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

chooken said:
so does this transfer across to my situation if it's genetic and not conditioned? I don't want to be working towards getting rid of something I should be embracing/accepting (some how?).




I think part of the path to dissolving and accepting is realizing that although parts of you may be so ingrained, even as deep as part of your genetic make up; you still have control of what patterns of your mind you continue to perpetuate. You have to dissect your consciousness bit by bit, become aware of that moment when you begin to be trapped in duality. You don't have to keep identifying these aspects of yourself as negative, or these mental formations as negative.

These struggles are what make you stronger, if you can dissolve your mind bit by bit with naked awareness/mindfulness, then you can get rid of the conflicted pattern within your mind. You can begin to look at these negatives with a new light, a light that encourages growth/acceptance and dissolves what you have related throughout your whole life as negative. You will still experience things you may think as unpleasant but in reality that is a label conditioned by your environment. Truly these thoughts are empty, you give them substance.

"As we think, so we become. We can loosen up and dissolve the dualism between light and dark, good and bad, positive and negative, wanted and unwanted circumstances."

"develop a mind that clings to nothing"

You are beyond thought and mere concepts.

Pain is inevitable but suffering is not. Problems will arise throughout your life. Physical, emotional, attitudinal. Confront the less pleasant aspects of existence with patience and try to see yourself in an unbiased way, complete with all sorrows and inadequacies.

Rather than trying to hide it or disguise it, examine it to death. Don't implant feelings that you don't really have or avoid feelings that you do have.

"If you are miserable; that is reality, that is what is happening, so confront that. Look it square in the eye without flinching. When you are having a bad time, examine that experience, observe it mindfully, study the phenomenon and learn its mechanics. The way out of a trap is to study the trap itself, learn how it is built. You do this by taking the thing apart piece by piece. The trap can't trap you if it has been taken to pieces."

"You can suffer through things or can you face them openly- the choice is yours."

"You watch one thought leading to another, you see destruction giving rise to emotional reaction and feelings giving rise to more thoughts. Actions, thoughts, feelings, desires- you see all of them intimately linked together in a delicate fabric of cause and effect. You watch pleasurable experiences arise and fall, and you see that they never last; you watch pain come uninvited and you watch yourself anxiously struggling to throw it off; you see yourself fail. It all happens over and over while you stand back quietly and just watch it all work."

"Out of this living laboratory itself comes an inner and unassailable conclusion. You see that your life is marked by disappointment and frustration, and you clearly see the source. These reactions arise out of your own inability to get what you want, your fear of losing what you have already gained, and your habit of never being satisfied with what you have."

"You watch yourself anxiously groping about, fearfully grasping after solid, trustworthy ground. You see yourself endlessly grasping for something, anything, to hold onto in the midst of all these shifting sands, and you see that there is nothing to hold onto, nothing that doesn't change."

"You witness tensions and conflicts inherent in the very process of everyday living, and you see how superficial most of your concerns really are."

"You learn to marvel that all these horrible things are not fearful at all. They are simply reality."

"You see where it rises, when it rises, and how it affects you. You watch it operate over and over, manifesting through every sense channel, taking control of the mind and making consciousness its slave."

"You do not block these phenomena, you just watch them; you see them as the very stuff of human thought."

"You search for that thing you call "me," but what you find is a physical body and how you have identified your sense of yourself with that bag of skin and bones."

"You search further, and you find all manner of mental phenomena, such as emotions, thought patterns, and opinions, and see how you identify the sense of yourself with each of them."

"It all keeps whirling round and round as you root through it, peering into every nook and cranny, endlessly hunting for "me."

"You find nothing. In all that collection of mental hardware in this endless stream of ever-shifting experience, all you can find is innumerable impersonal processes that have been caused and conditioned by previous processes. There is no static self to be found; it is all process."

"under the penetrating gaze of mindfulness, the feeling of a self, an "I" or "being" anything, loses its solidity and dissolves."

"you vividly experience the impermanence of life, the suffering nature of human existence, and the truth of no-self. You experience these things so graphically that you suddenly awake to the utter futility of craving, grasping, and resistance."

"In the clarity and purity of this profound moment, our consciousness is transformed. The entity of self evaporates. All that is left is an infinity of interrelated nonpersonal phenomena, which are conditioned and ever changing."



Mindfulness by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: Sse]
    #18768415 - 08/28/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It is my belief that everyone has everything.

These days people think that you're born homosexual -- I think that everyone is born with the ability to be into it - and probably most people have experienced it when they were young.

So, it's a choice to be into it or not when you're older.


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: endogenous]
    #18768427 - 08/28/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
It is my belief that everyone has everything.

These days people think that you're born homosexual -- I think that everyone is born with the ability to be into it - and probably most people have experienced it when they were young.

So, it's a choice to be into it or not when you're older.




Can YOU choose to not be heterosexual...?


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OfflineSse
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: Sse]
    #18768486 - 08/28/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)


"you vividly experience the impermanence of life, the suffering nature of human existence, and the truth of no-self. You experience these things so graphically that you suddenly awake to the utter futility of craving, grasping, and resistance."


just to clarify what is meant by the concept no-self

The concept of no-self means that there is no abiding, independently existing permanent self.

Each of us is a process rather than a fixed, independent, concrete entity/self.

Attitudes like "I'm the worst person in the world. Only I do these terrible things." are very "self" promoting.

"It is very important to be able to acknowledge such things, to experience the pain, and then, as Sayadaw advised me, to just let them go- "stop thinking about it." Otherwise, we actually enhance a mistaken sense of self."

Loving-Kindness by Sharon Salzberg


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: zzripz]
    #18768529 - 08/28/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

endogenous said:
It is my belief that everyone has everything.

These days people think that you're born homosexual -- I think that everyone is born with the ability to be into it - and probably most people have experienced it when they were young.

So, it's a choice to be into it or not when you're older.




Can YOU choose to not be heterosexual...?




Yes.


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.


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OfflineSse
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: zzripz]
    #18768540 - 08/28/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know if I was born hetero but I know that from a very early age... around 8-10 years old female is what attracted me.

I could choose to be with guys but I don't think I would get any arousal, I don't think that would work out to well. It's not really a choice for me, I'm just not attracted to that.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: Sse]
    #18770346 - 08/28/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
I don't know if I was born hetero but I know that from a very early age... around 8-10 years old female is what attracted me.

I could choose to be with guys but I don't think I would get any arousal, I don't think that would work out to well. It's not really a choice for me, I'm just not attracted to that.




Well -- why do people who never would have thought to get into it, get into homosexuality in jail?

I'm not trying to advocate homosexuality -- in fact, just the opposite.

Alot of people seem to think that having felt into homosexuality when you were young, or at any time, means that you're really a homosexual.

I'm saying that that is incorrect, and that you're not "born"  hetero, or homo sexual.

It's a choice.


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: endogenous]
    #18770692 - 08/28/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
I'm saying that that is incorrect, and that you're not "born"  hetero, or homo sexual.




Maybe not, but it seems pretty likely that we are born with a predisposition towards either heterosexuality or homosexuality.  Kinsey's research shows the majority of us are bisexual in the sense that we don't fall at the extreme ends of the Kinsey scale (i.e. the majority of us would at least consider the possibility of having sex with both genders), but we also tend to show a marked preference towards one gender over the other.  There are very few true bisexuals out there who have NO preference either way.

But to the point: everyone has a "choice" in the sense that we can go out tomorrow and have sex with any gender (or species :tongue2:) we please.  However, we can't choose who we're naturally attracted to, and these preferences do seem to be hard-wired in against most forms of change, short of radical brain surgery.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: deCypher]
    #18771140 - 08/28/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

endogenous said:
I'm saying that that is incorrect, and that you're not "born"  hetero, or homo sexual.




Maybe not, but it seems pretty likely that we are born with a predisposition towards either heterosexuality or homosexuality.




It seems to me that the "predisposition" is towards a "butch" or "femme" role, which furthers shows that people aren't born into homosexuality.


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.


Edited by endogenous (08/28/13 11:33 PM)


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InvisibleLifeBoy
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Posts: 184
Loc: Here
Re: I've hit a wall [Re: endogenous]
    #18771390 - 08/29/13 12:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Hmm... how to craft a response to such a vague post.

I'd suggest, instead of trying to judge something as moral or immoral, it might be helpful to think about whether your actions are going to cause other people pain.

I've found peace doesn't come from acting on my desires, but rather, being mindful of them, so I can determine the REAL root feeling underneath each desire and then dealing with it.  Sometimes I realize I'm driven by my scars.

Is a desire holding you back, or is there a deeper feeling, which fuels the desire, that is holding you back?


--------------------
John 4:14 - but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” - Jesus Christ

"People think love is an emotion.  Love is good sense." - Ken Kesey

If you get confused, listen to the music play!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E5JkPMB2DY[/url]
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QTPndsG_KA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6bM4XfqRRQ


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Invisiblechooken
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Re: I've hit a wall [Re: LifeBoy]
    #18771776 - 08/29/13 03:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I seem to have come to the realisation that I can choose to do whatever I want but what I choose to do or not to do determines who I am. If I let sub-conscious tendencies affect me in a bad way, that is just me judging myself - like Sse said. And if I am judging myself I have no hope of progressing. I plan to essentially follow the mind-state described in Mindfulness by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana which Sse also posted. The funny thing is that this is the same text which caused me to start paying attention to myself in more detail and what caused me to confront this part of me after reading it only a couple of days ago. I guess that metaphorical hard kick to the balls made me forget to stay grounded and rational.

Thanks to everyone :sunny:


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