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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: zzripz]
    #18760958 - 08/26/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

zzripz, your concern about getting on a lifelong regimen of antipsychotics is justified, but only because our current drugs aren't that sophisticated; they have terrible side effects and don't work that well because they tend to only treat the symptoms of schizophrenia and not the cause.  However, I see nothing wrong with a potential treatment of schizophrenia at the biochemical level: why do you think such a thing is impossible?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisiblePsilopsychosis
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Registered: 07/06/13
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Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: zzripz]
    #18761010 - 08/26/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Yes. IF you have 'experts' telling you in absolute clear sure terms that your are a defective biochemical machine that has (xyz) label, and is chronically ill, and will need medication for life, then this must have an affect on how you will feel!

People believe their authority, and even their families carry this on like little psychatrist wardens---all the time wanting to know if you have taken your "meds".
And you see this propaganda on TV, in the media. So the pressure is VERY oppressive, and this is why it is very important to start researching critics of this biopsychiatric model which is pushed on everyone. In this way you can begin seeing through what is going on. AND finding others who have and are also exposing this abuse of people, and this means finding a community of others that help support each other against this massive oppression. This is what the Mad Pride Movement is all about.




So true.

Honestly man, I have three years in this early psychosis intervention program, after that I am a free man once again. I will have hopefully completed college and moved away. That will be an excellent time to go off of meds. Right now, you need to understand I have whole circle of care keeping tabs on me as well as a family that has bought the whole psychiatric treatment notion hook, line and sinker. I just don't think it is feasible, I don't live in the right environment. I shouldn't have to lie to everyone. I hate lying. I feel like an asshole.

Someday I will have the right environment where people are open minded and I will have a sanctuary from the world where I can act a little weird for a few months to work through it. That would be the time, not now.

In the meantime I will read that book. Might as well right?


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
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Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: deCypher]
    #18762356 - 08/27/13 02:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
zzripz, your concern about getting on a lifelong regimen of antipsychotics is justified, but only because our current drugs aren't that sophisticated; they have terrible side effects and don't work that well because they tend to only treat the symptoms of schizophrenia and not the cause.  However, I see nothing wrong with a potential treatment of schizophrenia at the biochemical level: why do you think such a thing is impossible?




Because, as I keep trying to explain--and encouraging people to read the evidence-- 'schizophrenia' is not a biochemical disease, that is why. So all this gaff 'we will have the right drugs soon' is just typical promissory materialism; the reductionist belief that mind/soul can be reduced to chemical components in some future and chemically treated. Scientific materialists use it to explain away anything they do not currently understand whilst demanding that their worldview MUST remain until they do!

These shrinks love the labels they fix on people--making money out of them at the same time-- but are yet totally blind to their own insanity, which reminds me of this quote:


Quote:


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.




Albert Einstein


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: Psilopsychosis]
    #18762373 - 08/27/13 02:27 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilopsychosis said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Yes. IF you have 'experts' telling you in absolute clear sure terms that your are a defective biochemical machine that has (xyz) label, and is chronically ill, and will need medication for life, then this must have an affect on how you will feel!

People believe their authority, and even their families carry this on like little psychatrist wardens---all the time wanting to know if you have taken your "meds".
And you see this propaganda on TV, in the media. So the pressure is VERY oppressive, and this is why it is very important to start researching critics of this biopsychiatric model which is pushed on everyone. In this way you can begin seeing through what is going on. AND finding others who have and are also exposing this abuse of people, and this means finding a community of others that help support each other against this massive oppression. This is what the Mad Pride Movement is all about.




So true.

Honestly man, I have three years in this early psychosis intervention program, after that I am a free man once again. I will have hopefully completed college and moved away. That will be an excellent time to go off of meds. Right now, you need to understand I have whole circle of care keeping tabs on me as well as a family that has bought the whole psychiatric treatment notion hook, line and sinker. I just don't think it is feasible, I don't live in the right environment. I shouldn't have to lie to everyone. I hate lying. I feel like an asshole.

Someday I will have the right environment where people are open minded and I will have a sanctuary from the world where I can act a little weird for a few months to work through it. That would be the time, not now.

In the meantime I will read that book. Might as well right?




I really understand your situation, and it is like this for many people. That is the oppression. The biopsychiatric model is THE model that is pushed on people, unless you have a lot of money. And then you have your family to contend with. Do you know about The Icarus Project ? This is an online community which is part of The Mad Pride Movement, and as well as here you could find community that will understand what your going through and offer support and contacts.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: zzripz]
    #18762381 - 08/27/13 02:31 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
'schizophrenia' is not a biochemical disease, that is why.




So you claim.  Got any evidence to support that?  If you alter the biochemical functioning of the brain you will see that the mental processes associated with that brain change; it makes sense that it's at least theoretically possible to produce a change in brain chemistry that would be correlated with a beneficial change in corresponding mental processes, alleviating the harmful symptoms of the schizophrenic sufferer.  :thumbup:

I am not talking from a perspective of reductionist materialism here, by the way.  I do not think that the mind does not exist, nor that the brain is ontologically superior or somehow more fundamental than the mind.  But I do believe that observable brain processes are strongly correlated to mental processes, so strongly that a change in one almost necessarily produces change in the other.  Schizophrenia is a name for what is an apparent disorder of thought; the person suffering from schizophrenia is exhibiting abnormal mental processes.  Given the correlation between mind and brain, abnormal mental processes signifies abnormal brain processes, so I see no reason why causing the brain to start functioning normally wouldn't also cause the mind to start behaving normally as well.  Or if you disagree, why so?

Side-tangent:

In case you're interested I'd describe myself as a neutral monist: mind and matter are two perspectives of the same fundamental substance, two categories that describe the same thing.  Reductionist materialists fall into the trap of saying that mind is "just" matter, which ignores the very real subjective experience or qualia we all have, while New Age idealists fall into the opposite yet just as fallacious trap of saying that all matter is "just" mind, which ignores the very real physical world which doesn't just go away when we stop believing in it.  The only other alternatives are that both matter and mind exist, yet are different substances, and that matter is mind yet neither is reducible to the other.  The former is substance dualism a la Descartes, and is rife with problems, the least of which is explaining how the two substances interact and how exactly causality works between the two realms.  The latter is neutral monism, which is at least intuitively appealing from the standpoint of the psychedelic experiences we Shroomerites tend to share even if the bald statement of equivalence seems contradictory at face value.  But then again, so does the statement "All is One", yet many of us would agree that contradiction is true from certain perspectives of ego loss.  :psychsplit:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinelolwut
bad motherfucker


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 2,782
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Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: zzripz]
    #18762404 - 08/27/13 02:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Psilopsychosis said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Yes. IF you have 'experts' telling you in absolute clear sure terms that your are a defective biochemical machine that has (xyz) label, and is chronically ill, and will need medication for life, then this must have an affect on how you will feel!

People believe their authority, and even their families carry this on like little psychatrist wardens---all the time wanting to know if you have taken your "meds".
And you see this propaganda on TV, in the media. So the pressure is VERY oppressive, and this is why it is very important to start researching critics of this biopsychiatric model which is pushed on everyone. In this way you can begin seeing through what is going on. AND finding others who have and are also exposing this abuse of people, and this means finding a community of others that help support each other against this massive oppression. This is what the Mad Pride Movement is all about.




So true.

Honestly man, I have three years in this early psychosis intervention program, after that I am a free man once again. I will have hopefully completed college and moved away. That will be an excellent time to go off of meds. Right now, you need to understand I have whole circle of care keeping tabs on me as well as a family that has bought the whole psychiatric treatment notion hook, line and sinker. I just don't think it is feasible, I don't live in the right environment. I shouldn't have to lie to everyone. I hate lying. I feel like an asshole.

Someday I will have the right environment where people are open minded and I will have a sanctuary from the world where I can act a little weird for a few months to work through it. That would be the time, not now.

In the meantime I will read that book. Might as well right?




I really understand your situation, and it is like this for many people. That is the oppression. The biopsychiatric model is THE model that is pushed on people, unless you have a lot of money. And then you have your family to contend with. Do you know about The Icarus Project ? This is an online community which is part of The Mad Pride Movement, and as well as here you could find community that will understand what your going through and offer support and contacts.




I'm just wondering what your angle is here? I don't mean any offence but you have been saying mental illness doesn't exist here for a long time while there are many of us here who have had psychosis or bipolar or schizophrenia or ptsd or anxiety or paranoia and so on and who have experienced first hand just how much medication and associated therapies helped our recovery, some still using it to this day.

I'm wondering if you know anyone diagnosed with something in person, or if you yourself have been unfairly labelled, or something. Most of us have been open and answered questions so I'm wondering from what place your apparent prejudice against the mental health industry is coming from - scientific or something else.


--------------------
Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth, and taste...

:haha:


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Offlinecrkhd
☾☼☽


Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 9 months, 2 days
Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: lolwut]
    #18762511 - 08/27/13 04:11 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Psychosis is temporary.


Hell is eternal. Psychosis is just a pointer to heaven or hell. I've been in and out of that shit many times. It finished with Nirvikalpa Samadhi and I don't intend to go again, this place is already a mad house.

In all honesty being in the loony bin was merely the lecture. It's examination time now.

Hell is a glass prison of our own sorrows. Richard Feynmann demonstrates something AWESOME in his book QED The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. If you can understand the brutal simplicity of quantum electrodynamics, it's literally as simple as observer/system defined by each other.


Peer out into the heavens. At some time T, the Sun will expand and overwhelm the Earth and this too must pass. We have a choice: get off the Earth before T_critical or burn in Hell for eternity, until such as time that God sees fit to remove those beings from that glass prison.


The fact that The God literally wants The Best for you and no less, is embodied in the Least Action Principle/Path of Least Resistance/Path Integral formulation of quantum mechanics. Your mind takes the sum of all possible paths of your desires.


Purify your desires. To truly see the world we must learn who our 'enemy' is. And as a man I will tell you that it can be Woman, so purify your desires and know who your truest of Loves is, because she is literally waiting for you on a distant star somewhere burning to death because flesh doesn't really last long in white hot heat.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Offlinecrkhd
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 9 months, 2 days
Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: crkhd]
    #18762517 - 08/27/13 04:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

But then as a man I will tell you,


Woman embodies biological life. Mother Nature in reference to biological life, is very smart regarding her children.

Female=>Female=>Male
Female=>Female=>Female

These are the possible paths for human life to succeed in incarnation.

Within our Selves we have four voices. Explore them. Roots of the tree. Then knowing the roots, learn how to grow towards the Light as a plant.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
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Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: crkhd]
    #18762682 - 08/27/13 06:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

that shit was deep


--------------------
...or something







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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: deCypher]
    #18763674 - 08/27/13 12:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
'schizophrenia' is not a biochemical disease, that is why.

So you claim.  Got any evidence to support that?  If you alter the biochemical functioning of the brain you will see that the mental processes associated with that brain change; it makes sense that it's at least theoretically possible to produce a change in brain chemistry that would be correlated with a beneficial change in corresponding mental processes, alleviating the harmful symptoms of the schizophrenic sufferer.  :thumbup:




Yes. But you will have to do the work reading it, because it cannot be expressed in a few sentences. Psychiatric survivors did a hungerstrike to challenge the Psychiatric establishment (APA) to provide medical evidence that mental illness (including schizophrenia etc etc) was a biochemical disease. The APA couldn't but of course as is typical of them were very evasive and deceptive with LANGUAGE, pretending that they were proving it. But they didn't! And when pressed to provide evidence after their first failed attempt they did not have the courtesy to carry on the dialogue--which any real people presenting real science would have done--they just released a press release expanding more of their mental illness myth propaganda: Hunger Strike News Release & Fact Sheet

Quote:

I am not talking from a perspective of reductionist materialism here, by the way.  I do not think that the mind does not exist, nor that the brain is ontologically superior or somehow more fundamental than the mind.  But I do believe that observable brain processes are strongly correlated to mental processes, so strongly that a change in one almost necessarily produces change in the other.  Schizophrenia is a name for what is an apparent disorder of thought; the person suffering from schizophrenia is exhibiting abnormal mental processes.  Given the correlation between mind and brain, abnormal mental processes signifies abnormal brain processes, so I see no reason why causing the brain to start functioning normally wouldn't also cause the mind to start behaving normally as well.  Or if you disagree, why so?




I am sure that brain chemistry changes when we are in the throes of love. And there is a metaphor used, that can feel real. IS real--'love sickness' but it is not usually expected we go to the doctor about it is it? Eventually we get over it naturally, hopefully. But you see what these shrinks do, not really understand what the labels they hand out actually mean, is via treating the brain (and person) in a reductionist way, they attampt to 'correct' what they see is a disease, and this can cause harm. People can become chronic patients, addicted to a cocktail of toxic drugs. However, it is known that other who receive more intelligent understanding and support not only come through this experience without the need for medication, but can also feel spiritually enriched because of these experiences.

Quote:

Side-tangent:

In case you're interested I'd describe myself as a neutral monist: mind and matter are two perspectives of the same fundamental substance, two categories that describe the same thing.  Reductionist materialists fall into the trap of saying that mind is "just" matter, which ignores the very real subjective experience or qualia we all have, while New Age idealists fall into the opposite yet just as fallacious trap of saying that all matter is "just" mind, which ignores the very real physical world which doesn't just go away when we stop believing in it.  The only other alternatives are that both matter and mind exist, yet are different substances, and that matter is mind yet neither is reducible to the other.  The former is substance dualism a la Descartes, and is rife with problems, the least of which is explaining how the two substances interact and how exactly causality works between the two realms.  The latter is neutral monism, which is at least intuitively appealing from the standpoint of the psychedelic experiences we Shroomerites tend to share even if the bald statement of equivalence seems contradictory at face value.  But then again, so does the statement "All is One", yet many of us would agree that contradiction is true from certain perspectives of ego loss.  :psychsplit:




I agree with you that there is this 'game' going on where on one side of a coin is scientific determinism and the other new age/'all is illusion', but I am mot sure I would call myself a neutral monist, because i don't believe mind is a substance. I neither know what matter is or what mind is. I am happy with magical mystery---a kijnd of open 'I dunno' position

I feel that nature is alive, and sentient like I am and there can be a deepening relationship when this is opened to. I felt this from the very first LSD trips I had at 15.


Edited by zzripz (08/27/13 12:24 PM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: lolwut]
    #18764355 - 08/27/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lolwut said:


I'm just wondering what your angle is here? I don't mean any offence but you have been saying mental illness doesn't exist here for a long time while there are many of us here who have had psychosis or bipolar or schizophrenia or ptsd or anxiety or paranoia and so on and who have experienced first hand just how much medication and associated therapies helped our recovery, some still using it to this day.

I'm wondering if you know anyone diagnosed with something in person, or if you yourself have been unfairly labelled, or something. Most of us have been open and answered questions so I'm wondering from what place your apparent prejudice against the mental health industry is coming from - scientific or something else.




When we say mental illness is a myth, we don't mean that the various psychological and psychosomatic states people can go through aren't real. By myth we mean the insistence by the psychiatric establishment that these labels they give people, and children, and what they feel, are biochemical diseases.
They try convince many people that what they have are chronic diseases that will need ongoing medication and that is a myth. they have no actual medical evidence to support their biochemical model---which is THE model pushed on everyone, especially those that don't have much money.


Edited by zzripz (08/27/13 03:04 PM)


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InvisiblePsilopsychosis
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Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: zzripz]
    #18764975 - 08/27/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zzipz said:
I really understand your situation, and it is like this for many people. That is the oppression. The biopsychiatric model is THE model that is pushed on people, unless you have a lot of money. And then you have your family to contend with. Do you know about The Icarus Project ? This is an online community which is part of The Mad Pride Movement, and as well as here you could find community that will understand what your going through and offer support and contacts.







Wow. Thank you so much. I've been looking for something like this for months.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Psychosis or something else? [Re: Psilopsychosis]
    #18765041 - 08/27/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilopsychosis said:
I see what you are saying but I wasn't putting some smaller manitou or spirit in between the self and that which is.
I honestly thought I(ego) was the self and was communicating with that which is. Said thought  was a delusion, I think now.

Quote:

Circastes said: I would take antipsychotics because schizophrenia is neurodegenerative and you'll get stupider and stupider as the days go by, while antipsychotics may restore some of the chemical imbalances slowing this process down.

Plus you're not even experiencing life with this illness in its unchecked form, you're just a vegie.





First of all, I am on antipsychotics. I am switching from ziprasidone to abilfy. Yesterday was first day 10mg abilify no ziprasidone. I am neither completely zombiefied nor completely med free. Limbo.

Second of all, it is not clearly understood why some people have their cognitive functions damaged by psychosis. It appears to be years or decades of untreated psychosis that causes that. There is no evidence that says people who go off their meds and are sane have cognitive damages. In countries with less acess to psychiatric drugs people recover faster from mental illness. Think about that man.

I do however know at least one guy who had his brain destroyed by psychosis. Real sad. Probably mid 40's and there isn't a whole lot going on upstairs.




How do you define psychosis?
something that doesn't fit into our culture

then all spirituality is psychosis... and all people who recognize their spiritual side must go to the 'nut house'


I believe in god and that his spirit will help if you pray
either directly or indirectly, don't believe in coincidences
being grateful is something that we must all be in order to be happy
appreciate what you have, learn from mistakes, do what makes you happy
grateful is realizing you are happy/appreciating what you have, which makes you even happier
learn from mistakes makes you happier because you don't make them again, but instead do what makes you happy

talking with voices though is where it sounds psychotic maybe..
we all have an inner voice though, but it isn't directly audible to me
it's an inner guide for me, if I do something wrong I get unhappy
or sometimes I get a feeling/inner voice I must do something to be happy (not live a stressing place i.e.)
or what I must do to stay healthy/happy etc., but it's more of a feeling than a voice

I believe god is in every living creature, the soul is the same
god is perfection/love, god is in nature too, nature reconnects you with your divine being

Sitting/walking in nature or meditating in nature I can only recommend to anyone... no words can describe, it has to be experienced

Don't do drugs if you are on medications though, not sure if you do
doing psychedelics + taking antipsychotics won't work obviously, but doing them with any other drug is probably bad


Edited by lessismore (08/27/13 05:38 PM)


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