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Offlinecurrent
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gun debate... 9mm
    #18763411 - 08/27/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

there seems to be quite a bit of gun talk lately and one thing ive noticed is most talk down on 9mm. apparently their stopping power isnt worth a damn and can be compared to a .22. i always hear the same thing,

"there are stories all over the net stating how people are shot multiple times with a 9mm and walk away."

i have to strongly disagree.

when it comes to pistols, the range of target whether it be a paper target or an intruder/ deadly threat should not be any further than 25 feet. you can step back a bit further to really see what your gun can do, but 25 feet is ideal.

if i needed to i could take someones life with 3 shots. 2 in the chest and 1 in the head. i have shot plenty of times and am confident in my aiming. i could do the same with a 40 and a 45. i feel more comfortable with a 9 only because it has less of a recoil.

i honestly think a 9mm is just as good, if not better, then a higher cal, if shot properly.

excuse my elementary debating skills. i dropped out of 3rd grade because of recess. i dont play...


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18763453 - 08/27/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Let this guy influence your opinion


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Invisibleabltsandwich
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18763474 - 08/27/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

"stopping power" :rolleyes:


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Offlinecurrent
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: abltsandwich]
    #18763494 - 08/27/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

you know what i mean...


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OfflineLuSiD enthusiast
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18763829 - 08/27/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Op sounds like my :cop: brother.


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Invisibleluvdemboomers
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: LuSiD enthusiast]
    #18763868 - 08/27/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)



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Invisible4runner
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18763874 - 08/27/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

These are funny, and will probably cover this thread...

9mm Guns and the People who Carry Them


.45 acp Guns and The People Who Carry Them


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Offlinedruqs
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: 4runner]
    #18763888 - 08/27/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

when people say stopping power do they mean like when a girl walks past,
she sees the shooter and just freezes because of the total awesomeness of it?


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Offlinecurrent
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: 4runner]
    #18764254 - 08/27/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

those were actually great videos! thanks for that.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18764415 - 08/27/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

current said:
there seems to be quite a bit of gun talk lately and one thing ive noticed is most talk down on 9mm. apparently their stopping power isnt worth a damn and can be compared to a .22. i always hear the same thing,

"there are stories all over the net stating how people are shot multiple times with a 9mm and walk away."

i have to strongly disagree.







you want 'stopping power', go for the .50BMG or any rifle round above the .30
cal, maybe chamber a pistol for the 700 nitro express, otherwise you're just
putting holes in things and they're still most likely going to die

but really, someone shot more than 20 times by the fucking cops and lives
to sue or be prosecuted, disagree all you want, it happens, it's documented,
it can happen with any caliber just as any caliber can be lethal


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Offlinecurrent
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #18764426 - 08/27/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

so it boils down to the shooter himself...


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Invisiblevinsue
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #18764471 - 08/27/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Those fucking cops need to spend a little more time at the range...:yesnod: . . . :peace:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #18767165 - 08/28/13 04:06 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

you want 'stopping power', go for the .50BMG or any rifle round above the .30
cal, maybe chamber a pistol for the 700 nitro express, otherwise you're just
putting holes in things and they're still most likely going to die






This .50 magnum looks pretty stopping to me..





That looks like it would mess up your whole day.


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OfflineSoulidarity
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Asante]
    #18767266 - 08/28/13 05:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

damn that magnum is bad ass, imagine what that thing would do to someones head!


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Invisiblevinsue
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Soulidarity]
    #18767293 - 08/28/13 05:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:header: . . . :peace:


--------------------

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  Have You Rated Ythans Mom Yet ?? ... :taser:  ... HERE'S HOW ... (be nice) .  :mod: ... :peace:


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18767366 - 08/28/13 06:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

current said:

if i needed to i could take someones life with 3 shots. 2 in the chest and 1 in the head. i have shot plenty of times and am confident in my aiming. i could do the same with a 40 and a 45. i feel more comfortable with a 9 only because it has less of a recoil.






1. Sitting in your bedroom watching TV, yes you can do that. Face to face is another thing.

2. During your shooting practice was anyone shooting back?


Edited by sweeper54 (08/28/13 06:46 AM)


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Offlinecurrent
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: sweeper54]
    #18767395 - 08/28/13 07:13 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

no, but i def shoot from all sorts of different positions. laying down, sitting down, squatting, running, my back to a tree then turn and shoot, pulling from my holster, and sometimes, ill lay the gun down and step back a bit then run up to the gun and fire.

i practice on speed and accuracy. i also practice shooting with it loaded and one in the chamber and i practice with loading the clip, cocking it and shooting.

to be honest, i havnt shot in awhile since prices on ammo is ridiculous. i have plenty of ammo, but i def cant afford to waste it.


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18767404 - 08/28/13 07:23 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

My .22lr rifle is 10x deadlier than any .45 out there because of one thing. shot placement.

pop 10 rounds into someones leg shoulder thigh rib abdoment etc... they might live.
place 1 round into the ear, lungs, forehead, neck artery, they're goin down.

round size does matter but not nearly as much as the skill of the shooter. An ace shot with a 9mm or .22 pistol is way deadlier than some city street wannabe gangsta with .45 or 357mag


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Offlinecurrent
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: nuentoter]
    #18767421 - 08/28/13 07:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

my points exactly, but at the same time, give a 45 to a skilled shooter and its over.

my chick actually carries a 40 and she gives me a hard time about my 9 all the time, but ive shot hers quite a few times and i still prefer my 9. my 9 is also a compact which is a plus for me. for being a compact, it sure is accurate... or maybe its just me. either way, i think it all depends on the shooter.

.22 skilled vs a .45  :trippingsheens:

i mean... come on.


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18767430 - 08/28/13 07:35 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

current said:
no, but i def shoot from all sorts of different positions. laying down, sitting down, squatting, running, my back to a tree then turn and shoot, pulling from my holster, and sometimes, ill lay the gun down and step back a bit then run up to the gun and fire.

i practice on speed and accuracy. i also practice shooting with it loaded and one in the chamber and i practice with loading the clip, cocking it and shooting.

to be honest, i havnt shot in awhile since prices on ammo is ridiculous. i have plenty of ammo, but i def cant afford to waste it.




That's great and wonderful, but if you haven't had to fire that gun in anger with lead coming your way, 2 in the chest 1 in the head in a fantasy. It may end up a mouth full of dirt and shit in the pants.


Edited by sweeper54 (08/28/13 07:35 AM)


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OfflineDeekay
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18767435 - 08/28/13 07:36 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Read this

Now go buy a .40 if you're interested in protecting yourself


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InvisibleFruitOfLife
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Deekay]
    #18767461 - 08/28/13 07:47 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The best gun for carry is the one you are the most comfortable with. It doesnt matter if its a .22, .380, 9mm, .40, .45, 44mag etc. All that matters is that you are comfortable enough to be able to handle and deliver a good enough shot IF the time comes where you need to defend yourself.

For all you hardcore .40 and .45 people that care about stopping power... any hollow point bullet will do the same amount of damage so a .45 isnt really needed.

Ruger makes a line of pistols specifically for concealed carry and their 2 most popular are the LCP which is a .380 and the LC9 which is a 9mm. They also have the LCR which is a .38sp/.357mag but not as popular. Yet they felt no need to make a .40 or .45, simply because it isnt necessary.


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Offlinemagicbroncoride
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: FruitOfLife]
    #18767487 - 08/28/13 08:03 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The one thing I hear most often is how a 9mm expands bigger then a 45. Well that doesn't account for murphy. A .45 will always be a 45 sized hole but what if ur "9" doesn't expand? Then you have a .38 sized hole. But on the other hand if you cant hit shit with a 45 then what good does that .45 sized hole do in the wall next to the asshat you are trying to take out? Recoil is all about the weight of the firearm, the angle of the grip, the recoil mechanism itself, and the recoil pulse of the ammunition itself. U can tune many of these things to allow yourself to be more accurate with any firearm. I have a lil 380 in the shop that hurts more then my 10mm, why you might ask? Ergonomics of it blow dead dolphin dick and the weight is all wrong. Sorry im a gunsmith by trade. If you would like I can tell you what you can try to move up to a larger caliber or even to make your 9mm even more accurate then it is.


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Offlinecurrent
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: FruitOfLife]
    #18767539 - 08/28/13 08:16 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Quote:

current said:
no, but i def shoot from all sorts of different positions. laying down, sitting down, squatting, running, my back to a tree then turn and shoot, pulling from my holster, and sometimes, ill lay the gun down and step back a bit then run up to the gun and fire.

i practice on speed and accuracy. i also practice shooting with it loaded and one in the chamber and i practice with loading the clip, cocking it and shooting.

to be honest, i havnt shot in awhile since prices on ammo is ridiculous. i have plenty of ammo, but i def cant afford to waste it.




That's great and wonderful, but if you haven't had to fire that gun in anger with lead coming your way, 2 in the chest 1 in the head in a fantasy. It may end up a mouth full of dirt and shit in the pants.



Quote:

Drewsifer69 said:
The best gun for carry is the one you are the most comfortable with. It doesnt matter if its a .22, .380, 9mm, .40, .45, 44mag etc. All that matters is that you are comfortable enough to be able to handle and deliver a good enough shot IF the time comes where you need to defend yourself.

For all you hardcore .40 and .45 people that care about stopping power... any hollow point bullet will do the same amount of damage so a .45 isnt really needed.

Ruger makes a line of pistols specifically for concealed carry and their 2 most popular are the LCP which is a .380 and the LC9 which is a 9mm. They also have the LCR which is a .38sp/.357mag but not as popular. Yet they felt no need to make a .40 or .45, simply because it isnt necessary.




agreed. i carry a s&w m&p 9mm compact and load nothing but hollow points accept for when im practice shooting. for me, i am most comfortable with this gun.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18767574 - 08/28/13 08:29 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Damn it just use .357 sig.  9mm projectile with a bit more energy than a .45 acp bit less than .357 mag.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: FruitOfLife]
    #18767580 - 08/28/13 08:31 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Drewsifer69 said:
For all you hardcore .40 and .45 people that care about stopping power...





I wish people would stop using terms like stopping power and knockdown power,
want knockdown power, use a truck. the basics of it all are:

1. dead is dead, it doesnt matter how they got that way as long as you're alive

2. big bullets, small bullets, it doesnt matter, they can all kill

3. dont buy a .25 auto, it's the exception to  #2


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Offlinemagicbroncoride
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18767583 - 08/28/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever tried shooting your 9mm hollowpoints through any real world objects?  Try an old pair of jeans around old phone book? Or how about some old sheet rock in front of the same wet phone book? U might be surprised.  A hollow point is only going to expand to it full diameter if a certain set of conditions happen they dont just magicly expand. Full expansion is only one of three possible out comes 1 non or partial expansion, 2 full expansion,  3 they break up. Im not knocking hollowpoints I carry them its just that you cannot count for 100% positive expansion. Fbi and mil tests have proved this. A lil bit to fast or slow and they dont expand, anything lodged in the tip and they dont expand or they break up. In truth thats why all this ammo is a multi billion business and there are alway new and better ammo coming out. You must plan for the worst and hope for the best. Just like your malfunction drills I hope you guys are doing,  you may never had have a malfunction (ie: ftf, fte) but one day you will and you should know how to deal with it or your beloved highly accurate killing machine turns into a odd shaped object to throw at the bad guy. Pris summed it up perfectly any hole works as long as they go down im just saying be prepared for the worse cause if you have to shoot something its already a worst case scenario so stacking the deck aint a bad idea.


Edited by magicbroncoride (08/28/13 08:37 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: magicbroncoride]
    #18767591 - 08/28/13 08:36 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

magicbroncoride said:
Have you ever tried shooting your 9mm hollowpoints through any real world objects?  Try an old pair of jeans around old phone book? Or how about some old sheet rock in front of the same wet phone book? U might be surprised.





http://www.theboxotruth.com/


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Offlinecurrent
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: magicbroncoride]
    #18767597 - 08/28/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i actually like the jean/ phone book idea. ill keep that in mind next time im out shooting.

"your beloved highly accurate killing machine turns into a odd shaped object to throw at the bad guy."
:yeahthatsfunny:


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Offlinemagicbroncoride
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #18767620 - 08/28/13 08:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly thier first test shows 45 hydrashocks not expanding at all cause the cavites got filled up with shit. But u still have a .451 hole. A 9mm not expanding leaves a .382 hole. It is under box o truth first test box o truth number 1. Thats why certain bullets (ie 5.56 xm166) are designed to be barely stable and tumble when encoutering resistance.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: nuentoter]
    #18767638 - 08/28/13 08:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nuentoter said:
My .22lr rifle is 10x deadlier than any .45 out there because of one thing. shot placement.
 
place 1 round into the ear, lungs, forehead, neck artery, they're goin down.





Shoot someone in the neck artery with that .50 magnum and the head comes off though.

I'd bet you a gram of hash that if you shot 100 people in the forehead from 20ft with a .22 LR or a .45 ACP that the .45 will be lethal more often than the .22 would.

To the .22 defenders... If you had to kill yourself by putting a pistol to your head and firing, would you still pick the .22 over the .45? As I see it theres much more uncertainty to a .22 shot than a .45 one.  Both CAN kill but I think .45 would do so more reliably.


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Offlinemagicbroncoride
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Asante]
    #18767847 - 08/28/13 10:03 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So your 22 is better at killing then a 458 lott with a 28 inch barrel? (You said 45 not 45 acp) so you wana go elephant hunting with me next year?  You can espouse on me the merrits of your 22 while you try and take out a big bull elephant charging. Btw I can keep a 2 inch group at 200 yards with my 458 lott. Or better yet since your 22 rifle is 10 times better then any "45" (wich btw includes the 45-70, 45-90, 458 win mag, 458 lott, 460 weatherby, 45 acp, 45 long colt, 45 schofield, 454 casull, 460 rowland anlong with countless wild cats) I will even move down a couple calibers and use my 338 edge I can keep 3 out of 5 in a 12 inch circle at 1000 yards can you with your 22? Since your 22 is 10 times better then a "45" you should be what 17 times better then a 338 lapua or edge? Right? In the early 1900's 45-70 were able to hit at a mile and a half while still perpetrating 3 feet of sand and wood (google the sandy hook army tests) so stop with your 22 rifle. We were talking handguns not longuns. And another example of your retarded point is there are many professional shooters who enjoy shooting dimes with thier 45 acp with no scope or anything at 25 feet that can probably do it faster and better then your 22 rifle


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: magicbroncoride]
    #18767869 - 08/28/13 10:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

magicbroncoride said:
So your 22 is better at killing then a 458 lott with a 28 inch barrel?




dead is dead, doesnt matter what caliber makes you dead, you're still dead


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Offlinemagicbroncoride
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: magicbroncoride]
    #18767887 - 08/28/13 10:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

And just for the hell of it a safe at 300 yards vs 458 and some of 416 rigby I just made that your 22 must be better then too right   yes but more dead is always better. Sorry but the whole 22 is 1000 times better then anything is one of my peeves. Dead may be dead but what happens when your shots dont make it dead? I like to know what I shoot is going to be dead and not fuck me up. There are different calibers for different uses thats all im saying. To say one is better then other the variables must be known. Like with a almighty 22 if you cant hit a moving target then are still boned. Calling shots on paper is completely different then a fluid shooting. If you think a guy will just stand there and let u shoot him you are sorely mistaken or hes a tard and should be shot. Try this put a target in a old tire roll it down a hill and see how you do? On that target could u still get a temple or ear shot reliably. I have been in a couple shootouts in Iraq and I can tell you shit does not go as planned. Your shaking, you pissed yourself and people are shooting back. I walk with a limp now but if the guy was better trained I wouldnt be here.


Edited by magicbroncoride (08/28/13 10:27 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: magicbroncoride]
    #18767907 - 08/28/13 10:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

magicbroncoride said:
Sorry but the whole 22 is 1000 times better then anything is one of my peeves





no one made that claim, if you look at cost comparisons then it's certainly
the cheapest defense round, far cheaper than that 416 and that thompson will
be pretty difficult to draw from a holster

the statement was that there were more fatal shootings with a .22lr than with
the 9mm, this was done with actual shootings, the .22 fared better by a small
margin, the .25acp was the serious under performer


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Offlinemagicbroncoride
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #18767921 - 08/28/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Ok I exaggerated a lil nerotoner only said 10x better. All im saying is yes a 22 can kill and in skilled hands it kills very well but if you are having to do something like defend yourself a critical shot is highly unlikely for anyone not highly trained  whereas something that dosent need such high precision would be better. As for the Thompson I dont have a holster I just have the foot off of one of my canes at the end and use it as a cane


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Offlinecurrent
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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: magicbroncoride]
    #18767929 - 08/28/13 10:37 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

so the 9mm is not a less efficient gun when compared to higher cals... its all about comfortably and skill.

side note, i do plan on buying a 45 in the future, but for now, my compact serves its purpose.


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18767946 - 08/28/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Carry what u feel comfortable with and are accurate with. Just remember to train for the worst and hope for the best.


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: magicbroncoride]
    #18767964 - 08/28/13 10:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i think im going to rally up a few bums and take them out to my dads land. feed em, drink em up, and offer cash prizes for the winner. might even arm them with paint ball guns so i can get that being fired at effect.


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: magicbroncoride]
    #18767965 - 08/28/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:paranoid: Must have MOAR and Bigger :guns:... :dumbhunter:  . . . :peace:


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Asante]
    #18768648 - 08/28/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I am not a .22 defender and I agree the .45 will be more deadly more often, I guess I didn't explain my view properly, my point was that shot placement and comfort level with the gun is 10x more important than caliber. I personally would pick up my .22lr over any .45 because I know I can punch out quarters at 50yrds with my .22lr.  There is a reason you cannot hunt dear legally in maine with a .22 but can with a .22mag or above.  Personally i would pick up a .38 special or 357mag over a 9mm anyday as well.

Honestly though when it comes to home defense nothing compares with mossberg 12ga with pistol grip. and 3 1/2" #4 goose shot.


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: nuentoter]
    #18768661 - 08/28/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I like the 9mm
+p versions can propel a 124 grain bullet @1200 fps+
id rather have a 9mm than a 38special although the 38 is a nice round although its almost 100% exclusive to revolvers limiting capacity


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Doctor Sponge]
    #18769863 - 08/28/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)



yup


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18769945 - 08/28/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

.22 magnum has more energy and penetration than .38 special.

plus you can have higher capacity and / or more concealability


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18769968 - 08/28/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

This entire thread is stupid.
"Stopping power", lol.


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: something super extreme]
    #18769993 - 08/28/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

flame much

didnt have to post

stopping power is a house hold term. i was trying to keep it as simple as possible...

it was a basic comparison with simple thoughts.


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Deekay]
    #18772968 - 08/29/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deekay said:
Read this





I hate to quote myself, but this is a report from an FBI Firearms training unit. It's from 1989, but it's also relevant seeing as calibers, hollow points, and human physiology have not differed all that much since 1990. It's an interesting read so here's a few quotes from it. Anecdotal evidence and 'common sense' theories aside, this is (as it's title implies) an objective look at handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.

Quote:

(1) Penetration. The tissue through which the projectile passes, and which it disrupts or
destroys.
(2) Permanent Cavity. The volume of space once occupied by tissue that has been
destroyed by the passage of the projectile. This is a function of penetration and the frontal
area of the projectile. Quite simply, it is the hole left by the passage of the bullet.
(3) Temporary Cavity. The expansion of the permanent cavity by stretching due to the
transfer of kinetic energy during the projectile’s passage.
(4) Fragmentation. Projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled
outward from the permanent cavity and may sever muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc.,
apart from the permanent cavity.
7, 8
Fragmentation is not necessarily present in every
projectile wound. It may, or may not, occur and can be considered a secondary effect.
9





Quote:

THE HUMAN TARGET
With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and
reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth.
27
The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and
physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. However, except for
the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed, none of the factors are within the control of
the law enforcement officer.




Quote:

AMMUNITION SELECTION CRITERIA
The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are
penetration
and permanent cavity
.
33
The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs
and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must
penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the
abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back
of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and
the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

....

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While
penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST
reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft
body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate
to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.
36




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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Deekay]
    #18772977 - 08/29/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

hmmm.


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Konyap]
    #18772990 - 08/29/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

exactly.the fuckin 22 caliber bullet doesn't produce a lethal temporary wound cavity,lacks kinetic energy,yada yada
THATS WHY NO AGENCY ON EARTH USES THE 22

laughable:rolleyes:


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Doctor Sponge]
    #18772994 - 08/29/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

learning sponge said:
exactly.the fuckin 22 caliber bullet doesn't produce a lethal temporary wound cavity,lacks kinetic energy,yada yada
THATS WHY NO AGENCY ON EARTH USES THE 22

laughable:rolleyes:




ie yi yi


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: something super extreme]
    #18772996 - 08/29/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
This entire thread is stupid.
"Stopping power", lol.




Haha, this is what I was thinking, like personally any type of bullet would have enough stopping power for me... As in I'd stop and drop to the ground screaming "HELP I'VE BEEN SHOT"


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: gzuf]
    #18773007 - 08/29/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I saw this spanish rapper get shot the other day, straight up just dropped the mic and fell down before anyone knew what was going on.


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: current]
    #18773334 - 08/29/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

current said:


yup





so by this reasoning, the .22lris far superior because it has almost no
recoil and follow up shots will be more consistent


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Deekay]
    #18773377 - 08/29/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deekay said:
Quote:

Deekay said:
Read this





I hate to quote myself, but this is a report from an FBI Firearms training unit. It's from 1989, but it's also relevant seeing as calibers, hollow points, and human physiology have not differed all that much since 1990. It's an interesting read so here's a few quotes from it. Anecdotal evidence and 'common sense' theories aside, this is (as it's title implies) an objective look at handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.

Quote:

(1) Penetration. The tissue through which the projectile passes, and which it disrupts or
destroys.
(2) Permanent Cavity. The volume of space once occupied by tissue that has been
destroyed by the passage of the projectile. This is a function of penetration and the frontal
area of the projectile. Quite simply, it is the hole left by the passage of the bullet.
(3) Temporary Cavity. The expansion of the permanent cavity by stretching due to the
transfer of kinetic energy during the projectile’s passage.
(4) Fragmentation. Projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled
outward from the permanent cavity and may sever muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc.,
apart from the permanent cavity.
7, 8
Fragmentation is not necessarily present in every
projectile wound. It may, or may not, occur and can be considered a secondary effect.
9





Quote:

THE HUMAN TARGET
With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and
reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth.
27
The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and
physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. However, except for
the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed, none of the factors are within the control of
the law enforcement officer.




Quote:

AMMUNITION SELECTION CRITERIA
The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are
penetration
and permanent cavity
.
33
The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs
and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must
penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the
abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back
of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and
the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

....

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While
penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST
reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft
body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate
to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.
36







http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2931390/posts
Quote:

Tests have revealed 16"-24" of penetration into ballistic gelatin at 200 meters using the Aguila SSS 60-grain bullet.




http://www.survivalmonkey.com/threads/lethality-of-the-22-lr-standard-velocity-round.9361/#post-75834


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Re: gun debate... 9mm [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #18773440 - 08/29/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

current said:


yup





so by this reasoning, the .22lris far superior because it has almost no
recoil and follow up shots will be more consistent




nope cause the 22 doesnt have any STOPPING POWER!!!


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