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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: r72rock]
    #18770706 - 08/28/13 09:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

lolwut said:
Just wondering what the deal is with heroin and philosophical content. My drug use in the past (practically everything except opiates) have led me to many insights and ideas and realizations about life and myself etc.

In music I have heard many songs about it, many songs written from the perspective of a (musically talented) addict and am wondering if anyone here who has had experience with the drug has anything to say about it.




I have zero experience with it.  I hate guns and I hate roses and their thorns and their diseases.  But this song is pretty cool.  That's what I have to say.






Eh, GnR is an excellent band at times but I would have pegged you for a VU man.



Quote:

r72rock said:
I'm not sure about heroin, but I've had some insights on Opiates way back in the day. Mostly that, I'm seeking pleasure, and we're all seeking pleasure be it in one way or another.




:thumbup:

Can you think of any human behavior or activity that is not, fundamentally, motivated around acquiring pleasure (short-term or long-term)?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: deCypher]
    #18770835 - 08/28/13 09:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

lolwut said:
Just wondering what the deal is with heroin and philosophical content. My drug use in the past (practically everything except opiates) have led me to many insights and ideas and realizations about life and myself etc.

In music I have heard many songs about it, many songs written from the perspective of a (musically talented) addict and am wondering if anyone here who has had experience with the drug has anything to say about it.




I have zero experience with it.  I hate guns and I hate roses and their thorns and their diseases.  But this song is pretty cool.  That's what I have to say.






Eh, GnR is an excellent band at times but I would have pegged you for a VU man.



You would have pegged me?



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: r72rock]
    #18771222 - 08/28/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
I'm not sure about heroin, but I've had some insights on Opiates way back in the day. Mostly that, I'm seeking pleasure, and we're all seeking pleasure be it in one way or another. I heard it a million times before hand, but feeling it to the bone... that's a different story. :smile:

By the way, awesome avatar. I love King Crimson. :awehigh:




In 1971 on my first acid trip that's the LP we played.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelolwut
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: r72rock]
    #18771252 - 08/28/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
I'm not sure about heroin, but I've had some insights on Opiates way back in the day. Mostly that, I'm seeking pleasure, and we're all seeking pleasure be it in one way or another. I heard it a million times before hand, but feeling it to the bone... that's a different story. :smile:

By the way, awesome avatar. I love King Crimson. :awehigh:




My Dad and Icelander both recommended it to me within a day or so's time (:eek:), and I knew 21st Century Schizoid Man from a "Top 100 Guitar Solos" mix I've got already so I paid it a listen and was pretty impressed


--------------------
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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: lolwut]
    #18775374 - 08/29/13 10:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Can you think of any human behavior or activity that is not, fundamentally, motivated around acquiring pleasure (short-term or long-term)?




Nah, I personally can't. That's what Opium was showing me, hahah.

Quote:

lolwut said:
My Dad and Icelander both recommended it to me within a day or so's time (:eek:), and I knew 21st Century Schizoid Man from a "Top 100 Guitar Solos" mix I've got already so I paid it a listen and was pretty impressed




Couldn't recommend it enough either. It's a fantastic album. :thumbup: Robert Fripp does some next level shit when it comes to music composition. :lol:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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InvisibleAstrodelic
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: deCypher]
    #18775469 - 08/29/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Can you think of any human behavior or activity that is not, fundamentally, motivated around acquiring pleasure (short-term or long-term)?




cops scraping dead kids off the highway after a drunk collision.


Calling a new widow to give her the news about her husband who just died in Iraq.

Putting down dogs at the pound because there isn't a home for them.

Being cordial with people you don't like.

When you were a kid, going to school and having to deal with being picked on.

Being nice to an ex when you run into him/her at random while they're with their new love.

I can continue?


--------------------
My Journal
“Television is by nature the dominator drug par excellence. Control of content, uniformity of content, repeatability of content make it inevitably a tool of coersion, brainwashing, and manipulation.”-Mckenna

Everything I say is part of a roll playing fantasy and should be considered a lie. Engaging in illegal activity is dangerous.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: Astrodelic]
    #18776269 - 08/30/13 07:00 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

All those things can be termed pleasure seeking on some level.

For instance if you don't scrape up the bodies they look ugly and stink. It's more pleasurable to have them gone.  And on  and on.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: deCypher]
    #18777328 - 08/30/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

These are well-chosen quotes, but any of the truths that an opium user can discern based on these quotes, can also be discerned with psychedelics, only opiates are enslaving and psychedelics are liberating. Freedom is the singular feature that determines my valuation of a substance. Eternity Itself seem to have qualifications of Heavens, Hells, or the transcendence of these extremes altogether. I prefer the writings of those who espouse psychedelics over the ones who espouse the alleged virtues of narcotics, like Crowley, De Quincy, Coleridge, JD Morrison. There may be exquisite eloquence in these writers, but their language is enveloped in a gray aura, so-to-speak. I prefer lucid luminescence and upliftingly sublime emotions, not sweet blissfulness terminating in darkness. I'm not versed in Huxley's writings on opiate, but I rather enjoy his work on mescaline.
"I've been down so goddamned long, that it looks like up to me..." - JDM


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleThe Phleg
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18777794 - 08/30/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I prefer lucid luminescence and upliftingly sublime emotions, not sweet blissfulness terminating in darkness.



Interesting you put it that way. What do you think the difference is between people choosing one view from the other?


--------------------
You wanna get high? Drink tap water.
--------------------


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: Astrodelic]
    #18781472 - 08/31/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Astrodelic said:
Quote:


Can you think of any human behavior or activity that is not, fundamentally, motivated around acquiring pleasure (short-term or long-term)?




cops scraping dead kids off the highway after a drunk collision.


Calling a new widow to give her the news about her husband who just died in Iraq.

Putting down dogs at the pound because there isn't a home for them.

Being cordial with people you don't like.

When you were a kid, going to school and having to deal with being picked on.

Being nice to an ex when you run into him/her at random while they're with their new love.

I can continue?




All these might not be pleasurable in the immediate short-term, but in the long-term I'd argue they provide the people who perform these actions with more pleasure/less pain than if they hadn't performed them.  The cop who scrapes dead kids off the highway is doing so because he feels like it's the right thing to do, sure, but he also knows that doing the right thing as opposed to the wrong thing will avoid him feeling guilt and shame.  He probably also will feel good after doing it because he knows he helped society in a capacity that few of us can.  :shrug:

Same goes for all the other things you listed.  We might not go about all the actions in our life with the immediate, direct conscious motivation of seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, but ultimately I think it always comes down to that, whether in the form of avoiding the repercussions of guilt and other negative emotions, or just in the subtle good feeling of knowing we've helped someone else.  :thumbup: to Ice's response too.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18781481 - 08/31/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I prefer lucid luminescence and upliftingly sublime emotions, not sweet blissfulness terminating in darkness.




There is a certain seduction in the nihilistic euphoria inherent in the compound, I feel.  Freud's Thanatos and Eros instincts all wrapped up together into a syringe--some heroin users report falling in love with the drug, and some certainly seem to chase after death like it's their job.  I watched a documentary once where a heroin user's best friend died from an OD and the first thing he thought of was that he needed to find the dealer who had supplied him because their product was obviously really good.  :syringe:

Funny you mention Crowley, though.  His book Diary of a Drug Fiend was an excellent read if anyone's interested in a fictional (though based off Crowley's own experiences) account of both the highs and lows of cocaine and heroin abuse.  :thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: deCypher]
    #18784439 - 09/01/13 08:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I prefer lucid luminescence and upliftingly sublime emotions, not sweet blissfulness terminating in darkness.




There is a certain seduction in the nihilistic euphoria inherent in the compound, I feel.  Freud's Thanatos and Eros instincts all wrapped up together into a syringe--some heroin users report falling in love with the drug, and some certainly seem to chase after death like it's their job.  I watched a documentary once where a heroin user's best friend died from an OD and the first thing he thought of was that he needed to find the dealer who had supplied him because their product was obviously really good.  :syringe:

Funny you mention Crowley, though.  His book Diary of a Drug Fiend was an excellent read if anyone's interested in a fictional (though based off Crowley's own experiences) account of both the highs and lows of cocaine and heroin abuse.  :thumbup:




I love this post!


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #18784534 - 09/01/13 09:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:  I just ordered that book due to his post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: Icelander]
    #18784540 - 09/01/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Let me know what you think of it. Been planning on reading it for a while.

On a side note. I'm getting some heroin today. Can't wait. :grin:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSse
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #18785000 - 09/01/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

be careful mang


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: Sse]
    #18785028 - 09/01/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Tnx man. I will. Especially since I hardly ever do it.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSse
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #18785599 - 09/01/13 02:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Good to hear


The only times I've done it were smoking a few hits after a lot of other drugs. I usually passed out not long after. I preferred ingesting or smoking the big pharma pills seems a lot safer but I imagine smoking heroin/pills could be overdone easily too, especially if you get an unusually strong batch of H.

The people I've known to O.D were shooting up but they were everyday all day users.

:rockon: have fun :drooling:

:tongue:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: deCypher]
    #18786257 - 09/01/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I had Diary of a Drug Fiend in mind when I wrote this. I read that book in 1986 when I began my former gig of 27 years as a substance abuse specialist in a major school system.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: The Phleg]
    #18786381 - 09/01/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pyrate999 said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I prefer lucid luminescence and upliftingly sublime emotions, not sweet blissfulness terminating in darkness.



Interesting you put it that way. What do you think the difference is between people choosing one view from the other?




Like the Jim Morrison quote, I am reminded of a parallel by way of metaphor, namely nitrogen narcosis, AKA 'raptures of the deep.' I was a scuba diver for a few years in Miami, and you have to take a training course, pass written and water certification tests, without which people don't risk selling you compressed air, or take you out on dive trips. Anyway, if one exceeds one's designated 'bottom time,' which means just so many minutes at increasing depths, the nitrogen that you're breathing (air is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% other gases) begins to have an intoxicating effect on your body. You develop the inebriating effects of intoxication, and divers have been known to swim deeper and deeper. 130 feet is the maximum on air. Deeper dives require other gases. But a basic confusion occurs, or a death-wish sets in. I don't know because at those depths, the dead diver doesn't come back up and if he did, he couldn't tell us what he was thinking, being dead and all.

People get confused in life just as the diver with nitrogen narcosis. They begin to plumb depths which will inevitably result in premature death. "I've been down so goddamned long, it looks like up to me..." High states of consciousness may be accompanied by bliss, but in Buddhism, which understands these conditions, one wants to move past bliss into clarity, Vajra consciousness. Attachment to blisses of various kinds is where people lose their way, just as the diver does. They pursue more and more intense blisses even though that is what death feels like under certain conditions. It certainly 'high' on the pleasure-pain continuum compared to the Buddhist who self-immolates himself. But higher consciousness transcends the entire pleasure-pain continuum to arrive at a condition of unification from which that dualistic continuum emerges. The opiate addict simply becomes addicted to bliss, even though bliss is the mask of death. It's a Thanatos-Eros, death-life, Muladhara-Svadhisthana chakra, anal-genital constellation. It's about pre-personal, instinctual, regressive tendencies, not personal or trans-personal, intuitive, progressive tendencies. In fact people who confuse the blissful opiate conditions with the word 'high,' demonstrate what Ken Wilber brilliantly called the "Pre-Trans Fallacy." Being on narcotics is being 'low,' not 'high,' on several levels, including the predominating chakra-motivation, the regression towards formerly intrauterine existence (Freud's "oceanic feelings"), and the reduction of moral development commensurate with infantile, pre-personal stages of development. The 'I want what I want when I want it' mentality of a junkie is infantile primary process material, with no ability to defer gratification. A raging baby in an adult body, with no moral development is a era danger to self and others IMO.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMemories
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Re: Philosophical content of Heroin? [Re: The Phleg]
    #18786548 - 09/01/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
sweet blissfulness terminating in darkness.




I think this describes opiates quite well. When i was a heavy user in the past, i accepted the immenent future of increasingly pervasive agony and soul-shattering despair in turn for that quick escape into the warm, thoughtless bliss that is opiates.


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