Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
InvisibleOldHam
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 1,566
Does more poverty = more crime?
    #18754249 - 08/25/13 07:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Saw some guy on Fox talking about the low crime rate of the Great Depression
and the low crime rate of various, extremely poor, Asian communities. Thoughts?

I hear the crime rate has been plummeting recently, right along with America's financial circumstances.

So, does more poverty always mean more crime?


--------------------
The Shallows, Chapter 7, Nicholas Carr


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: OldHam]
    #18754281 - 08/25/13 07:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Whenever something goes down something comes up and vice versa. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOldHam
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 1,566
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Icelander]
    #18754355 - 08/25/13 08:00 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Whenever I post real questions here I get nothing for my effort and then wonder why I bother. :haha:


--------------------
The Shallows, Chapter 7, Nicholas Carr


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: OldHam] * 3
    #18754368 - 08/25/13 08:09 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Do what I do.  I pose unreal questions and get well thought out responses. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOldHam
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 1,566
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Icelander]
    #18754374 - 08/25/13 08:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:iveseenenough:


--------------------
The Shallows, Chapter 7, Nicholas Carr


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: OldHam]
    #18754424 - 08/25/13 08:37 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:ruggedwink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: OldHam]
    #18754679 - 08/25/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldHam said:
Saw some guy on Fox talking about the low crime rate of the Great Depression
and the low crime rate of various, extremely poor, Asian communities. Thoughts?

I hear the crime rate has been plummeting recently, right along with America's financial circumstances.

So, does more poverty always mean more crime?



Thats interesting I would like to some studies to back it up though. Logically you would think that crime is based mostly on economic circumstance which includes poor education lack of good role models. Maybe in these asian communities there are still strong family bonds which could be a detriment to crime?  :strokebeard:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #18754786 - 08/25/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The Asian secret is not being gullible enough to fight and steal from each other just because some fuckwit said that was how life is.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #18754797 - 08/25/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I know plenty of well to do people who are "criminals"(victimless crimes that I don't support remaining illegal) some that are outright wealthy. Poor people don't do well in the drug trade, or they wouldn't be poor. They are as inept at crime as they are at other aspects of their sorry ass lives. As much as bleeding heart liberals don't want to admit it poverty is a sign of failure, and being a loser the vast majority of the time. Except for extenuating circumstances, at least hear in America that is.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: OldHam] * 1
    #18754859 - 08/25/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldHam said:


So, does more poverty always mean more crime?





Poverty and crime probably share a common cause: shitty conditions and shitty parents.  I doubt poverty is a very important cause for all but some opportunistic or casual property crimes with financial benefit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: OldHam]
    #18754994 - 08/25/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

That sounds interesting, but I'd like to see some statistics/studies to support it.

If you look at areas with high crime rates, it's overwhelmingly areas with a poor socio-economic status. But correlation does not equal causation. I think the culture in those communities has a lot to do with it. If crime is viewed as acceptable, or even encouraged, that will certainly lead to higher crime. I think over time, living in poor communities, this culture gets established and that's what leads to the high crime rates, but I don't believe it is just poverty as the cause.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 2
    #18755065 - 08/25/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

the correlation between violent non-profitable crime(i.e. young black males killing each other off at alarming rates) and poverty are also correlated to intelligence levels I'd bet


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18755301 - 08/25/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I'd disagree. I think it has significantly more to do with the culture than with intelligence. I suppose t could have something to do with level of education, but that draws back to poverty again. I'd be really interested to see a study on the claim of intelligence, but I doubt anyone has conducted one to date.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineManianFHS
living in perverty
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 14,741
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18757454 - 08/25/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

any introductory sociology book will be littered with citations showing a high correlation between low socioeconomic status and increased crime rates. in answer to ops question, yes. take a look at detroit for your latest example.


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSmokey420
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 1,057
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: OldHam]
    #18757469 - 08/25/13 10:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I stopped reading after Fox.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18758127 - 08/26/13 01:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I'd disagree. I think it has significantly more to do with the culture than with intelligence. I suppose t could have something to do with level of education, but that draws back to poverty again. I'd be really interested to see a study on the claim of intelligence, but I doubt anyone has conducted one to date.




I don't know about that. I don't care how much education you give an unintelligent person they're still unintelligent. Some people are just dumber then others. We're all born with an intellectual capacity. I find it hard to believe there isn't a correlation between violent/petty crime & IQ. I also don't believe there isn't a correlation between poverty and IQ in places of prosperity & opportunity.

I realize that there are exceptions to every rule, and that there intelligent yet violent psychopaths. That there are intelligent people who fail at life for whatever reason, but do you really believe that intelligent people don't statistically tend to thrive and prosper more then their mentally inferior counterparts?

I mean you do know that the people that are in the county jail especially those who are habitually aren't the brightest bulbs in the box right? The same goes for government housing projects, although those two examples are often the  same segments of the populations.

I also believe that the percentage of unintelligent people that are incarcerated has to be connected to their inability to avoid detection by law enforcement, handle the police intelligently when confronted by arrest by law enforcement, and ability to afford good legal representation in court due to the fact that dumb people tend to earn less money


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Smokey420] * 2
    #18760489 - 08/26/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I stopped reading after Fox.



So you're only comfortable in your own little bubble cloud of smoke?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: ManianFH]
    #18761551 - 08/26/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mick said:
any introductory sociology book will be littered with citations showing a high correlation between low socioeconomic status and increased crime rates. in answer to ops question, yes. take a look at detroit for your latest example.




QFT. It's common sense and has been shown many times over


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Smokey420]
    #18761655 - 08/26/13 09:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I stopped reading after Fox.



And I stopped taking you seriously after I saw 420 in your name


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: ManianFH]
    #18761762 - 08/26/13 10:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mick said:
any introductory sociology book will be littered with citations showing a high correlation between low socioeconomic status and increased crime rates. in answer to ops question, yes. take a look at detroit for your latest example.




So if we follow that line of reasoning, any city that is poorer than Detroit (on a global basis) should have more crime than Detroit, I hardly think that is the case. Detroit also has a major component that is highly correlated with crime, and it's not economic.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: qman] * 1
    #18762338 - 08/27/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

mick said:
any introductory sociology book will be littered with citations showing a high correlation between low socioeconomic status and increased crime rates. in answer to ops question, yes. take a look at detroit for your latest example.




So if we follow that line of reasoning, any city that is poorer than Detroit (on a global basis) should have more crime than Detroit, I hardly think that is the case. Detroit also has a major component that is highly correlated with crime, and it's not economic.



You may be too politically correct to say it, but I am not. That major component you speak of is black people. There is definitely a correlation between crime and African Americans. Anyone who says otherwise is full of shit


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineManianFHS
living in perverty
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 14,741
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: qman]
    #18763804 - 08/27/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

mick said:
any introductory sociology book will be littered with citations showing a high correlation between low socioeconomic status and increased crime rates. in answer to ops question, yes. take a look at detroit for your latest example.




So if we follow that line of reasoning, any city that is poorer than Detroit (on a global basis) should have more crime than Detroit, I hardly think that is the case. Detroit also has a major component that is highly correlated with crime, and it's not economic.




I said a high correlation, not 100% correlation. There are always external factors that influence a variable such as crime. But yes I would bet the farm that I can provide more examples of areas with poverty and high crime rates, than you can provide of areas with poverty and low crime rates. The correlation is higher, and if I wasn't on my phone on the shitter at work I'd dig up some resources to back that up. Maybe later haha


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18765337 - 08/27/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I'd disagree. I think it has significantly more to do with the culture than with intelligence. I suppose t could have something to do with level of education, but that draws back to poverty again. I'd be really interested to see a study on the claim of intelligence, but I doubt anyone has conducted one to date.




I don't know about that. I don't care how much education you give an unintelligent person they're still unintelligent. Some people are just dumber then others. We're all born with an intellectual capacity. I find it hard to believe there isn't a correlation between violent/petty crime & IQ. I also don't believe there isn't a correlation between poverty and IQ in places of prosperity & opportunity.

I realize that there are exceptions to every rule, and that there intelligent yet violent psychopaths. That there are intelligent people who fail at life for whatever reason, but do you really believe that intelligent people don't statistically tend to thrive and prosper more then their mentally inferior counterparts?

I mean you do know that the people that are in the county jail especially those who are habitually aren't the brightest bulbs in the box right? The same goes for government housing projects, although those two examples are often the  same segments of the populations.

I also believe that the percentage of unintelligent people that are incarcerated has to be connected to their inability to avoid detection by law enforcement, handle the police intelligently when confronted by arrest by law enforcement, and ability to afford good legal representation in court due to the fact that dumb people tend to earn less money




I'm not saying intelligence won't play a role, but I think it will play a relatively minor role compared to other values. For example, I think emotional intelligence (EQ) has a lot more to do with how a person handles a potentially stressful encounter, such as a police encounter. I also think that will play a bigger role in how they handle the perpetual stresses of low socioeconomic status and living in high crime areas.

And again, I think the cultural aspect is huge. If the culture of the area they live in is one that tolerates, condones, or even supports violent crime, then they will be much more likely to engage in it themselves. Even intelligent people will get swept up by the actions that the culture condones, but I suppose you could make an argument that those less intelligent will be more likely too. My overall point through all this rambling, though, is that intelligence will have a weaker correlation to violent crime than factors such as EQ, culture, and education.

Just to clarify, the reason I brought up education level was not to suggest that one could "teach intelligence", per say. I agree that you can't teach someone to be smarter. I was trying to imply that more education will lead to lower crime rates. I see this happening for a number of reasons including but not limited to increased opportunities for more income, a growing emotional intelligence, and increased ambition towards other goals.

Also, do you have studies to back up your claims about jail and housing projects? I would expect a small disparity perhaps, but not a large one, which is why I'm interested in seeing what the research concluded.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18766771 - 08/28/13 12:27 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I'd disagree. I think it has significantly more to do with the culture than with intelligence. I suppose t could have something to do with level of education, but that draws back to poverty again. I'd be really interested to see a study on the claim of intelligence, but I doubt anyone has conducted one to date.




I don't know about that. I don't care how much education you give an unintelligent person they're still unintelligent. Some people are just dumber then others. We're all born with an intellectual capacity. I find it hard to believe there isn't a correlation between violent/petty crime & IQ. I also don't believe there isn't a correlation between poverty and IQ in places of prosperity & opportunity.

I realize that there are exceptions to every rule, and that there intelligent yet violent psychopaths. That there are intelligent people who fail at life for whatever reason, but do you really believe that intelligent people don't statistically tend to thrive and prosper more then their mentally inferior counterparts?

I mean you do know that the people that are in the county jail especially those who are habitually aren't the brightest bulbs in the box right? The same goes for government housing projects, although those two examples are often the  same segments of the populations.

I also believe that the percentage of unintelligent people that are incarcerated has to be connected to their inability to avoid detection by law enforcement, handle the police intelligently when confronted by arrest by law enforcement, and ability to afford good legal representation in court due to the fact that dumb people tend to earn less money




I'm not saying intelligence won't play a role, but I think it will play a relatively minor role compared to other values. For example, I think emotional intelligence (EQ) has a lot more to do with how a person handles a potentially stressful encounter, such as a police encounter. I also think that will play a bigger role in how they handle the perpetual stresses of low socioeconomic status and living in high crime areas.

And again, I think the cultural aspect is huge. If the culture of the area they live in is one that tolerates, condones, or even supports violent crime, then they will be much more likely to engage in it themselves. Even intelligent people will get swept up by the actions that the culture condones, but I suppose you could make an argument that those less intelligent will be more likely too. My overall point through all this rambling, though, is that intelligence will have a weaker correlation to violent crime than factors such as EQ, culture, and education.

Just to clarify, the reason I brought up education level was not to suggest that one could "teach intelligence", per say. I agree that you can't teach someone to be smarter. I was trying to imply that more education will lead to lower crime rates. I see this happening for a number of reasons including but not limited to increased opportunities for more income, a growing emotional intelligence, and increased ambition towards other goals.

Also, do you have studies to back up your claims about jail and housing projects? I would expect a small disparity perhaps, but not a large one, which is why I'm interested in seeing what the research concluded.




I will look for more studies, especially those related to your specific request. In the meantime I thought this was relevant to our discussion.

http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED429148
Quote:

From the link
The analysis suggests that those of below-average intelligence would still earn less than their peers with higher IQs. It is concluded that policy analysts must stop avoiding the reality of human inequality.




--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18769558 - 08/28/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

That last sentence, "It is concluded that..." suggested to me right away that that wasn't a peer-reviewed article, or at least not a good one. It also suggests that the researcher(s) may have had a predetermined bias. So I looked into it, and it turns out its not peer reviewed. I realize you never claimed it to be, but I'm pointing out that I don't find that source particularly credible.

It was a book (you can find the full text here)published by the AEI, a think-tank that has had its fair share of controversy in the past. A book published by the same author 4 years earlier, which argued a similar point, was discredited by Cornell economist John Cawley in this paper. The book you cited references that book a lot, but I haven't yet had time to read it in its entirety to know if that influenced the conclusion at all. However, Cawley et al. found "Our second point is that measured cognitive ability and schooling are so highly correlated that one cannot separate their effects without imposing strong, arbitrary parametric structure in estimation which, when tested, is rejected by the data."

So I did some digging of my own and found some more studies which show some bias in that book you cited. To me it seems they looked at the data selectively to shape their conclusion. For example, this study, uses the same data set and comes to this conclusion.

"This research shows that each point increase in IQ test scores raises income by between $234 and $616 per year after holding a variety of factors constant. Regression results suggest no statistically distinguishable relationship between IQ scores and wealth. Financial distress, such as problems paying bills, going bankrupt or reaching credit card limits, is related to IQ scores not linearly but instead in a quadratic relationship. This means higher IQ scores sometimes increase the probability of being in financial difficulty."

And in a quote of his, in this article, he says "being more intelligent does not confer any advantage along two of the three key dimensions of financial success (income, net worth and financial distress)"


This one, published at Dartmouth university writes "Overall the evidence on conditional correlations between cognitive ability and financial decisions is limited, and mixed."

So I don't think that you can draw a conclusion and say that people with a lower IQ are more likely to be poor. There appears to be quite the wealth of evidence refuting that theory actually, or at least demonstrating that the effect is difficult to measure, and modest when found.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18769613 - 08/28/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:



There appears to be quite the wealth of evidence refuting that theory actually,


If there is you haven't provided any
Quote:

or at least demonstrating that the effect is difficult to measure, and modest when found.




I agree that it may be hard to measure but why am I not surprised that the community of social scientists has difficulty accepting the notion that stand alone intelligence is fiscally advantageous?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18769661 - 08/28/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If there is you haven't provided any




You mean aside from the three studies I posted which all found that IQ does not correlate strongly to wealth?

Quote:

I agree that it may be hard to measure but why am I not surprised that the community of social scientists has difficulty accepting the notion that stand alone intelligence is fiscally advantageous?




They don't necessarily have difficulty accepting it, they have difficulty proving it. It might seem intuitive, but not all things that are intuitive are true.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18769681 - 08/28/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

If there is you haven't provided any




You mean aside from the three studies I posted which all found that IQ does not correlate strongly to wealth?




They found no statstically significant correlation.  That does not mean there isn't one.  They just didn't find one.  Do you know what "statistically significant" means?
Quote:



Quote:

I agree that it may be hard to measure but why am I not surprised that the community of social scientists has difficulty accepting the notion that stand alone intelligence is fiscally advantageous?




They don't necessarily have difficulty accepting it, they have difficulty proving it. It might seem intuitive, but not all things that are intuitive are true.




I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18769727 - 08/28/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

They found no statstically significant correlation.  That does not mean there isn't one.  They just didn't find one.  Do you know what "statistically significant" means?




No need to get callous. Them not finding a correlation is evidence that it doesn't exist. Them finding a correlation is evidence that it does exist. They didn't find one.

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?

With the book that Simplicitry posted, the bias was clear to me, but it was opposite than the bias you are suggesting.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18769771 - 08/28/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

They found no statstically significant correlation.  That does not mean there isn't one.  They just didn't find one.  Do you know what "statistically significant" means?




No need to get callous. Them not finding a correlation is evidence that it doesn't exist. Them finding a correlation is evidence that it does exist. They didn't find one.




So you don't know what it means.  It most certainly is NOT evidence that it doesn't exist.  Do you know what the confidence threshold is for finding statistically significant effects are?  A failure to establish significant finding can be due to a whole host of factors utterly unrelated to whether it exists in fact or not.  You would need a study proving beyond a statistical certainly that it is not correlated.  Show me that one.  Failure to prove something is not proof of the opposite.
Quote:



Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?

With the book that Simplicitry posted, the bias was clear to me, but it was opposite than the bias you are suggesting.




You saw bias but don't even know what statistical significance means.  Not every single social scientist is a liberal weenie.  Just 95% of them.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18769786 - 08/28/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

If there is you haven't provided any




You mean aside from the three studies I posted which all found that IQ does not correlate strongly to wealth?




Wealth & income are very different things from the studies that I read the other day before any of your request itseems there doesn't seem to be a strong  correlation between I.Q.and inherited wealth (I really don't find that surprising) but many of the studies I read found a correlation between I.Q. and income. There seems to be some consensus on that point in many studies with much disagreement as to why.

I was also surprised that in researching that there seems to be little dispute that there is an IQ gap between white and black Americans. Again in this situation there's argument over what  the reasons for this are but little dispute that the gap actually does exist

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
They don't necessarily have difficulty accepting it, they have difficulty proving it. It might seem intuitive, but not all things that are intuitive are true.




It does seem intuitive to me and I believe it to be true. But I am on the hunt for sources starting now. I'll get back to you on that before the end of the night


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18769816 - 08/28/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So you don't know what it means.  It most certainly is NOT evidence that it doesn't exist.  Do you know what the confidence threshold is for finding statistically significant effects are?  A failure to establish significant finding can be due to a whole host of factors utterly unrelated to whether it exists in fact or not.  You would need a study proving beyond a statistical certainly that it is not correlated.  Show me that one.  Failure to prove something is not proof of the opposite.




I never said prove. I never argued that the correlation doesn't exist. I just said that their is evidence suggesting it doesn't. The fact that they couldn't find that correlation is evidence suggesting it doesn't exist.

Quote:

You saw bias but don't even know what statistical significance means.  Not every single social scientist is a liberal weenie.  Just 95% of them.




As opposed to personal attacks about things I supposedly don't know (I've worked in three separate research labs, and just published a paper last year. I've got a pretty good understanding of what makes something statistically significant), why don't you answer my question?

What in their methodology introduced bias?

I can point directly to what introduced bias in Murray's book. It was an incomplete analysis and presentation of the data. Your turn.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18769836 - 08/28/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wealth & income are very different things from the studies that I read the other day before any of your request itseems there doesn't seem to be a strong  correlation between I.Q.and inherited wealth (I really don't find that surprising) but many of the studies I read found a correlation between I.Q. and income. There seems to be some consensus on that point in many studies with much disagreement as to why.




I agree. Several studies found correlations between IQ and income, but that didn't lead to a correlation between IQ and wealth. This isn't necessarily the result of inherited wealth. A couple authors speculated on some reasons, but were unable to provide much evidence. It could be anything from living different life styles to answering the survey questions more accurately. Regardless, they didn't find a correlation IQ and wealth.

Quote:

I was also surprised that in researching that there seems to be little dispute that there is an IQ gap between white and black Americans. Again in this situation there's argument over what  the reasons for this are but little dispute that the gap actually does exist




Can you please link one of the studies you found?

Quote:

t does seem intuitive to me and I believe it to be true. But I am on the hunt for sources starting now. I'll get back to you on that before the end of the night




It seemed intuitive to me. I always assumed intelligence played a role, I just thought other factors would play a bigger one.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18769865 - 08/28/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

So you don't know what it means.  It most certainly is NOT evidence that it doesn't exist.  Do you know what the confidence threshold is for finding statistically significant effects are?  A failure to establish significant finding can be due to a whole host of factors utterly unrelated to whether it exists in fact or not.  You would need a study proving beyond a statistical certainly that it is not correlated.  Show me that one.  Failure to prove something is not proof of the opposite.




I never said prove. I never argued that the correlation doesn't exist. I just said that their is evidence suggesting it doesn't. The fact that they couldn't find that correlation is evidence suggesting it doesn't exist.




No, it is not.  You are flat out wrong.  It is evidence of nothing at all.
Quote:



Quote:

You saw bias but don't even know what statistical significance means.  Not every single social scientist is a liberal weenie.  Just 95% of them.




As opposed to personal attacks about things I supposedly don't know (I've worked in three separate research labs, and just published a paper last year. I've got a pretty good understanding of what makes something statistically significant), why don't you answer my question?




No you do not.  Clearly.
Quote:



What in their methodology introduced bias?

I can point directly to what introduced bias in Murray's book. It was an incomplete analysis and presentation of the data. Your turn.




OK do it.

Your Dartmouth link abstract:
Quote:


Recent work on intertemporal choice has varied
the specification of every key aspect of
modeling except the opportunity cost of
consumption. We present evidence that
consumers have present-biased perceptions of
this parameter: they tend to underestimate
the cost of short-term borrowing and the retu
rn to long-term saving. We develop a new
theory that fits this evidence and is based on a more general cognitive tendency to
underestimate exponential growth. The theory generates distinct, behavioral predictions
about relationships between biased perception
s and portfolio choice, wealth levels, and
the use and benefits of financial advice. Th
ese predictions are borne out in microdata




Not relevant

Your USA Today article doesn't present a methodology.  Or even findings.  Just a selected bit of bullshit from a journalist.  Regarding the AEI thing I call your attention to figure 2-1.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18769954 - 08/28/13 07:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

No, it is not.  You are flat out wrong.  It is evidence of nothing at all.




We are clearly at an impasse, and I'd rather not get insulted further.

Quote:

No you do not.  Clearly.




Very funny. Do tell me, what did I say that gave you your wondrous epiphany? Stop trying to make this personal when you obviously have no basis with which to judge my experience of statistical analysis and let's debate the actual issue at hand. Ad hominem does not help you prove your point. If for some reason your curiosity is burning, I can explain to you my exact contribution to the paper, and how it revolved entirely around statistical significance.

Quote:

OK do it.




I already did. A separate peer-reviewed study (not just a book from a think-tank), analyzed the exact same data and drew the same conclusion as the book. IQ and income are correlated. The study, however, presented the rest of their findings, that IQ and wealth are not correlated.

Quote:


Your Dartmouth link abstract:
Quote:


Recent work on intertemporal choice has varied
the specification of every key aspect of
modeling except the opportunity cost of
consumption. We present evidence that
consumers have present-biased perceptions of
this parameter: they tend to underestimate
the cost of short-term borrowing and the retu
rn to long-term saving. We develop a new
theory that fits this evidence and is based on a more general cognitive tendency to
underestimate exponential growth. The theory generates distinct, behavioral predictions
about relationships between biased perception
s and portfolio choice, wealth levels, and
the use and benefits of financial advice. Th
ese predictions are borne out in microdata




Not relevant






This is just one of the studies I presented, and it still doesn't answer my question. An abstract is not a methodology.

Quote:

Your USA Today article doesn't present a methodology.  Or even findings.  Just a selected bit of bullshit from a journalist. 




Please quote me where I suggest it is a study with a methodology, or where I use findings from it as evidence or data. I merely used it to provide a source for a quote from a researcher. Are you noticing any bias in your statements?

Quote:

Regarding the AEI thing I call your attention to figure 2-1.




Figure 2-1 is off-topic to what I am arguing. I never argued there wasn't a correlation between income and IQ. I'm arguing that multiple separate researchers were unable to find a correlation between IQ and wealth. Figure 2-1 has no relation to that.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18770076 - 08/28/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

No, it is not.  You are flat out wrong.  It is evidence of nothing at all.




We are clearly at an impasse, and I'd rather not get insulted further.




Telling you you are wrong is not an insult.  Telling you that you are an idiot is but I did not do that.  Any time.
Quote:



Quote:

No you do not.  Clearly.




Very funny. Do tell me, what did I say that gave you your wondrous epiphany? Stop trying to make this personal when you obviously have no basis with which to judge my experience of statistical analysis and let's debate the actual issue at hand. Ad hominem does not help you prove your point. If for some reason your curiosity is burning, I can explain to you my exact contribution to the paper, and how it revolved entirely around statistical significance.




I'm not making this personal.  You are spouting bullshit and me pointing that out is not the least bit personal.
Quote:



Quote:

OK do it.




I already did. A separate peer-reviewed study (not just a book from a think-tank), analyzed the exact same data and drew the same conclusion as the book. IQ and income are correlated. The study, however, presented the rest of their findings, that IQ and wealth are not correlated.




Which one?
Quote:



Quote:


Your Dartmouth link abstract:
Quote:


Recent work on intertemporal choice has varied
the specification of every key aspect of
modeling except the opportunity cost of
consumption. We present evidence that
consumers have present-biased perceptions of
this parameter: they tend to underestimate
the cost of short-term borrowing and the retu
rn to long-term saving. We develop a new
theory that fits this evidence and is based on a more general cognitive tendency to
underestimate exponential growth. The theory generates distinct, behavioral predictions
about relationships between biased perception
s and portfolio choice, wealth levels, and
the use and benefits of financial advice. Th
ese predictions are borne out in microdata




Not relevant






This is just one of the studies I presented, and it still doesn't answer my question. An abstract is not a methodology.




Why should I comment on the methodology of a study that has no relevance to the discussion at hand?
Quote:



Quote:

Your USA Today article doesn't present a methodology.  Or even findings.  Just a selected bit of bullshit from a journalist. 




Please quote me where I suggest it is a study with a methodology, or where I use findings from it as evidence or data. I merely used it to provide a source for a quote from a researcher. Are you noticing any bias in your statements?

Quote:

Regarding the AEI thing I call your attention to figure 2-1.




Figure 2-1 is off-topic to what I am arguing. I never argued there wasn't a correlation between income and IQ. I'm arguing that multiple separate researchers were unable to find a correlation between IQ and wealth. Figure 2-1 has no relation to that.




Do you not think wealth is correlated with income?:flowstone:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18770164 - 08/28/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Telling you you are wrong is not an insult.  Telling you that you are an idiot is but I did not do that.  Any time.




Not what I was referring to.

Quote:

I'm not making this personal.  You are spouting bullshit and me pointing that out is not the least bit personal.




Disagreeing with me is not personal. Insisting, multiple times, that I don't know what statistical significance is, is. It implies that I am too stupid to follow your arguments or argue the topic. And you have no evidence for your assertion.

Quote:

Which one?




The one published by Zagorksy. Looking back at my post this was my error. I quoted the study but forgot to link it. The link is here.

Quote:

Why should I comment on the methodology of a study that has no relevance to the discussion at hand?




You could comment on the methodology of the studies that do. Again, I posted more than just one study. This one uses IQ in their explanation of results, but you're right, it is not a direct study on the matter.

However, I just stumbled across one that is. And it directly agrees with me. Care to find the bias in it's methodology?  From their abstract: "We find that IQ affects health, but not wealth or happiness." And from their results section : "The positive effect of IQ does not survive if we control for schooling and family background: wealth derives from schooling, not from “raw ability”."

Quote:

Do you not think wealth is correlated with income?:flowstone:




I never said that. I said there is evidence to suggest that IQ and wealth aren't correlated. For someone who made such a big fuss about evidence and statistical significance before, you should know that this figure isn't direct evidence that IQ and wealth are correlated.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18770919 - 08/28/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I said there is a correlation between intelligence and income. Not intelligence and wealth.
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Wealth & income are very different things from the studies that I read the other day before any of your request itseems there doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between I.Q.and inherited wealth (I really don't find that surprising) but many of the studies I read found a correlation between I.Q. and income. There seems to be some consensus on that point in many studies with much disagreement as to why.




and it would appear that you would agree with me. Do you in anyway disagree? our original discussion was about income not wealth.
Quote:

Boldaslove said:
I never argued there wasn't a correlation between income and IQ.



Quote:

Boldaslove said:
I agree. Several studies found correlations between IQ and income




Besides poor people obviously don't have wealth so  wealth becomes a moot point. I would have to assume by your previous statements that you agree with my position


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Edited by Simplicitry (08/28/13 10:50 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18771539 - 08/29/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Wealth correlates with IQ up to a point. Beyond that point the most intelligent will see through the money = self worth deception and move on to other things.

I think that point comes at around 120 on the Cattell scale.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18774173 - 08/29/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Telling you you are wrong is not an insult.  Telling you that you are an idiot is but I did not do that.  Any time.




Not what I was referring to.

Quote:

I'm not making this personal.  You are spouting bullshit and me pointing that out is not the least bit personal.




Disagreeing with me is not personal. Insisting, multiple times, that I don't know what statistical significance is, is. It implies that I am too stupid to follow your arguments or argue the topic. And you have no evidence for your assertion.




You keep proving that you don't know what it means every time you say that a failure to find one is evidence of the opposite proposition.  This is not clear thinking
Quote:



Quote:

Which one?




The one published by Zagorksy. Looking back at my post this was my error. I quoted the study but forgot to link it. The link is here.




Thanks for clearing that up.  I actually went back to try to find what you were talking about and, surprise, it wasn't there.
Quote:



Quote:

Why should I comment on the methodology of a study that has no relevance to the discussion at hand?




You could comment on the methodology of the studies that do. Again, I posted more than just one study. This one uses IQ in their explanation of results, but you're right, it is not a direct study on the matter.




I know I'm right.
Quote:



However, I just stumbled across one that is. And it directly agrees with me. Care to find the bias in it's methodology?  From their abstract: "We find that IQ affects health, but not wealth or happiness." And from their results section : "The positive effect of IQ does not survive if we control for schooling and family background: wealth derives from schooling, not from “raw ability”."




I don't need to comment on their methodology because I read the abstract and it starts with this

Quote:

We explore the effect of schooling on health, wealth and happiness for a cohort of Dutch
individuals born around 1940.





Once again, schooling is not intelligence
Quote:


Quote:

Do you not think wealth is correlated with income?:flowstone:




I never said that. I said there is evidence to suggest that IQ and wealth aren't correlated. For someone who made such a big fuss about evidence and statistical significance before, you should know that this figure isn't direct evidence that IQ and wealth are correlated.




If IQ is correlated with income and income is correlated with wealth it would strike me that there would also be a strong correlation between wealth and IQ, although, as has been pointed out, that wasn't the argument you were responding to.  Further you have failed to disprove a realtionship.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18791019 - 09/02/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
I said there is a correlation between intelligence and income. Not intelligence and wealth.
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Wealth & income are very different things from the studies that I read the other day before any of your request itseems there doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between I.Q.and inherited wealth (I really don't find that surprising) but many of the studies I read found a correlation between I.Q. and income. There seems to be some consensus on that point in many studies with much disagreement as to why.




and it would appear that you would agree with me. Do you in anyway disagree? our original discussion was about income not wealth.
Quote:

Boldaslove said:
I never argued there wasn't a correlation between income and IQ.



Quote:

Boldaslove said:
I agree. Several studies found correlations between IQ and income




Besides poor people obviously don't have wealth so  wealth becomes a moot point. I would have to assume by your previous statements that you agree with my position




So I looked back, and it seems the origins of our discussion aren't clear. I do not disagree that there is a correlation between IQ and income. However, the reason I brought all this up was your claim that a greater percentage of people in government housing projects are of low IQ. I see this as a wealth issue, not an income issue. Wealth is not a moot point, because the poor have wealth, just less of it. That is why I see it as a more accurate measure than income. It is possible to have a very low income, but still be wealthy and vice-versa.

Regardless, the only way to know is a study that addresses the issue directly. I am still waiting to see the studies to confirm most of your claims by the way. I am very interested in them.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791171 - 09/02/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You keep proving that you don't know what it means every time you say that a failure to find one is evidence of the opposite proposition.  This is not clear thinking.





Actually, it is called evidence of absence. The question is whether the analysis conducted is valid enough to be evidence of absence, as opposed to absence of evidence. And in my opinion, some of the studies, particularly Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Ooosterbeek's, have analysis that is valid enough to be evidence of absence. But the statement you just made is not true regardless.

Quote:

Thanks for clearing that up.  I actually went back to try to find what you were talking about and, surprise, it wasn't there.




I had quoted the study's abstract and one other line, but forgot to link it. Now that the link is provided, would you care to comment on the methodology?

Quote:

I know I'm right.




Excellent argument. Actually, you just think you are right; you haven't provided any evidence whatsoever to support your claim. You have yet to comment on a single study's methodology and shown how it supports your claim of bias.

Quote:

I don't need to comment on their methodology because I read the abstract and it starts with this

Quote:


We explore the effect of schooling on health, wealth and happiness for a cohort of Dutch
individuals born around 1940.




Once again, schooling is not intelligence




Had you read the very next line in the abstract, you would realize that they looked at IQ separately:

"We also use observations on childhood IQ and family background."

They investigated the effects of IQ, removed from other factors and found:

"We find that IQ affects health, but not wealth or happiness"

Now, would you like to comment on the study's methodology and show how it introduces bias?

Quote:

If IQ is correlated with income and income is correlated with wealth it would strike me that there would also be a strong correlation between wealth and IQ, although, as has been pointed out, that wasn't the argument you were responding to.  Further you have failed to disprove a realtionship.




If the correlation were really that simple or strong, you think they would have found it by now. They have not. Up until now, I have not seen a study that has found a strong correlation between IQ and wealth.

And I have not tried to disprove the relationship. I never tried to prove anything. I have only tried to show evidence, not proof, and I thought I had made that clear, but my apologies if that wasn't the case.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSmokey420
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 1,057
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 1
    #18791232 - 09/02/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I stopped reading after Fox.



And I stopped taking you seriously after I saw 420 in your name



And I never took you seriously to begin with, so we're on even ground. 420 is a cooler number then 18 :shrug:


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18791520 - 09/02/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You keep proving that you don't know what it means every time you say that a failure to find one is evidence of the opposite proposition.  This is not clear thinking.





Actually, it is called evidence of absence. The question is whether the analysis conducted is valid enough to be evidence of absence, as opposed to absence of evidence. And in my opinion, some of the studies, particularly Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Ooosterbeek's, have analysis that is valid enough to be evidence of absence. But the statement you just made is not true regardless.

Quote:

Thanks for clearing that up.  I actually went back to try to find what you were talking about and, surprise, it wasn't there.




I had quoted the study's abstract and one other line, but forgot to link it. Now that the link is provided, would you care to comment on the methodology?

Quote:

I know I'm right.




Excellent argument. Actually, you just think you are right; you haven't provided any evidence whatsoever to support your claim. You have yet to comment on a single study's methodology and shown how it supports your claim of bias.

Quote:

I don't need to comment on their methodology because I read the abstract and it starts with this

Quote:


We explore the effect of schooling on health, wealth and happiness for a cohort of Dutch
individuals born around 1940.




Once again, schooling is not intelligence




Had you read the very next line in the abstract, you would realize that they looked at IQ separately:

"We also use observations on childhood IQ and family background."

They investigated the effects of IQ, removed from other factors and found:

"We find that IQ affects health, but not wealth or happiness"

Now, would you like to comment on the study's methodology and show how it introduces bias?

Quote:

If IQ is correlated with income and income is correlated with wealth it would strike me that there would also be a strong correlation between wealth and IQ, although, as has been pointed out, that wasn't the argument you were responding to.  Further you have failed to disprove a realtionship.




If the correlation were really that simple or strong, you think they would have found it by now. They have not. Up until now, I have not seen a study that has found a strong correlation between IQ and wealth.

And I have not tried to disprove the relationship. I never tried to prove anything. I have only tried to show evidence, not proof, and I thought I had made that clear, but my apologies if that wasn't the case.




Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

They found no statstically significant correlation.  That does not mean there isn't one.  They just didn't find one.  Do you know what "statistically significant" means?




No need to get callous. Them not finding a correlation is evidence that it doesn't exist. Them finding a correlation is evidence that it does exist. They didn't find one.





When one performs an experiment that relies on statistical analysis it begins with a hypothesis, collects data and submits that data to a statistical test that requires a minimum of 95% confidence and more often 98 or 99%.  A failure to reach that confidence level is of no value in establishing the opposite proposition.  In order to do that one would have to design a study looking specifically at that question and find it to within a statistical level of confidence of minimum 95%.  I do not know why you cannot grasp this.  And you can design a study to find an absence of correlation.

Stupid people make less money and commit more crime.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791652 - 09/02/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
When one performs an experiment that relies on statistical analysis it begins with a hypothesis, collects data and submits that data to a statistical test that requires a minimum of 95% confidence and more often 98 or 99%.  A failure to reach that confidence level is of no value in establishing the opposite proposition.  In order to do that one would have to design a study looking specifically at that question and find it to within a statistical level of confidence of minimum 95%.  I do not know why you cannot grasp this.  And you can design a study to find an absence of correlation.

Stupid people make less money and commit more crime.




Once again, I have not made any claims that these experiments show, to any level of confidence, that the correlation does not exist. I have only said that they are evidence that it doesn't exist. These studies specifically looked for that correlation and didn't find it. This is evidence of absence. This is not proof, this is merely evidence.

And can I assume from you ignoring my questions about methodology that you have no interest in supporting your claim regarding bias?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18791694 - 09/02/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

They are not evidence of any such thing. 

I went back through the thread and cannot tell what study you want me to comment on the methodology of.  I assume you know and can re link it so I don't have to go through all of the irrelevant bullshit again.  Thanks in advance


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791744 - 09/02/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I went back through the thread and cannot tell what study you want me to comment on the methodology of.  I assume you know and can re link it so I don't have to go through all of the irrelevant bullshit again.  Thanks in advance




This is your original post that I am referring to, and my response.

Quote:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?





From what I can find, you haven't posted anything specific from any methodologies. You quoted the abstract of one study, which I admitted didn't actually research the topic. Though, that doesn't support your claim, as the author's never made any claims (that I could find) trying to disprove the correlation. You also commented on an article I quoted, and discussed the first line from the abstract of a separate study. This is the extent of what I could find that you posted, but if I missed anything, please link it.

The two methodologies I am particularly interested in you commenting on are Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Oosterbeek's (both have been linked in this thread).


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18791764 - 09/02/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I went back through the thread and cannot tell what study you want me to comment on the methodology of.  I assume you know and can re link it so I don't have to go through all of the irrelevant bullshit again.  Thanks in advance




This is your original post that I am referring to, and my response.

Quote:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?





From what I can find, you haven't posted anything specific from any methodologies. You quoted the abstract of one study, which I admitted didn't actually research the topic. Though, that doesn't support your claim, as the author's never made any claims (that I could find) trying to disprove the correlation. You also commented on an article I quoted, and discussed the first line from the abstract of a separate study. This is the extent of what I could find that you posted, but if I missed anything, please link it.

The two methodologies I am particularly interested in you commenting on are Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Oosterbeek's (both have been linked in this thread).




--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791783 - 09/02/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I went back through the thread and cannot tell what study you want me to comment on the methodology of.  I assume you know and can re link it so I don't have to go through all of the irrelevant bullshit again.  Thanks in advance




This is your original post that I am referring to, and my response.

Quote:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?





From what I can find, you haven't posted anything specific from any methodologies. You quoted the abstract of one study, which I admitted didn't actually research the topic. Though, that doesn't support your claim, as the author's never made any claims (that I could find) trying to disprove the correlation. You also commented on an article I quoted, and discussed the first line from the abstract of a separate study. This is the extent of what I could find that you posted, but if I missed anything, please link it.

The two methodologies I am particularly interested in you commenting on are Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Oosterbeek's (both have been linked in this thread).







My bad. Misread and thought you meant you didn't know what you needed to comment regarding.

Zagorsky's study

Hastrog and Oosterbeek's study


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Smokey420]
    #18791823 - 09/02/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I stopped reading after Fox.



And I stopped taking you seriously after I saw 420 in your name



And I never took you seriously to begin with, so we're on even ground. 420 is a cooler number then 18 :shrug:



You don't take me seriously because you fear that you are wrong about your socialist ideology. By dismissing me and my opnions you solidify your dogma.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 1
    #18791847 - 09/02/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Zagorsky
Quote:

If you do not have a Username and Password, click the "Register to Purchase" button below to purchase this article.

Price: US $ 31.50




Hastrog

Quote:

For our analyses we use a unique Dutch data set




--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791909 - 09/02/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Zagorsky
Quote:

If you do not have a Username and Password, click the "Register to Purchase" button below to purchase this article.

Price: US $ 31.50








I have access to this paper through my institution. I am sorry that you don't have access.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Hastrog

Quote:

For our analyses we use a unique Dutch data set







And how does this support your claim? Hastrog and Oosterbeek are Dutch, which is why it would make sense that they study Dutch individuals. The Brabant survey, which they refer to in their study, seems like a fair sample to me.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18791962 - 09/02/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever.  You asked me to comment on their methodology and I did.  You didn't link the Brabant survey and I didn't see any need to go further into Hastrog.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18792013 - 09/02/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Whatever.  You asked me to comment on their methodology and I did.  You didn't link the Brabant survey and I didn't see any need to go further into Hastrog.




I asked you to show which part of their methodology invoked bias into the results (and supports your claim of them trying to disprove the impact of IQ), you didn't. Not even close. I didn't link the survey, because I figured someone who had evidence to support his theories would be able to find it themselves. Nonetheless, here is the survey.

So far you've provided zero evidence to support your claim, and you show little interest in commenting on the methodologies of the studies I provided. In fact, you didn't even read the methodology of at least Zagorsky's study, and possibly others. So you can't have drawn evidence from there. With this being the case, can you provide evidence from other sources to support your claim?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18792091 - 09/02/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Whatever.  You asked me to comment on their methodology and I did.  You didn't link the Brabant survey and I didn't see any need to go further into Hastrog.




I asked you to show which part of their methodology invoked bias into the results (and supports your claim of them trying to disprove the impact of IQ), you didn't. Not even close. I didn't link the survey, because I figured someone who had evidence to support his theories would be able to find it themselves. Nonetheless, here is the survey.

So far you've provided zero evidence to support your claim, and you show little interest in commenting on the methodologies of the studies I provided. In fact, you didn't even read the methodology of at least Zagorsky's study, and possibly others. So you can't have drawn evidence from there. With this being the case, can you provide evidence from other sources to support your claim?


I can't read the Zagorsky methodology unless you paste it.  I am not paying 30 dollars to see  a study that found nothing.  I made a comment on Hastrog's methodology.  The first thing you look at is the sample.  Duh.

Which claim would you like me to support?  That poor people are stupid?  Really?  I believe the Bell Curve established that.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18792268 - 09/02/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I can't read the Zagorsky methodology unless you paste it.  I am not paying 30 dollars to see  a study that found nothing.  I made a comment on Hastrog's methodology.  The first thing you look at is the sample.  Duh.

Which claim would you like me to support?  That poor people are stupid?  Really?  I believe the Bell Curve established that.




I'm not going to paste a study that I don't own. I don't have the right to post anything that isn't already available free of charge. My point in mentioning that study and how you didn't read it is that you made your claim with a seemingly very narrow scope of evidence, you were already commenting on the intentions of a man you never met (I'm assuming. Correct me if I'm wrong.) and a study you never read.

You did make a comment on the methodology of Hastrog and Oosterbeek. You didn't, however, make any clarification on how that introduced bias. In fact, now that I've posted an explanation of the data set this study used, you still haven't made any clarifications as to how it invokes bias. And you certainly haven't shown how it provides evidence for your claim that:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




Which, by the way, is the claim I would like you to support. I have made this pretty clear in the last few posts. So, I will pose my question again. Can you provide evidence to support your claim that social researchers are actively vested in disproving a correlation of IQ with wealth/income?

And if I have misunderstood your claim (you can see the small conversation we had regarding it in this post), please clarify.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18794813 - 09/03/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

I can't read the Zagorsky methodology unless you paste it.  I am not paying 30 dollars to see  a study that found nothing.  I made a comment on Hastrog's methodology.  The first thing you look at is the sample.  Duh.

Which claim would you like me to support?  That poor people are stupid?  Really?  I believe the Bell Curve established that.




I'm not going to paste a study that I don't own. I don't have the right to post anything that isn't already available free of charge. My point in mentioning that study and how you didn't read it is that you made your claim with a seemingly very narrow scope of evidence, you were already commenting on the intentions of a man you never met (I'm assuming. Correct me if I'm wrong.) and a study you never read.

You did make a comment on the methodology of Hastrog and Oosterbeek. You didn't, however, make any clarification on how that introduced bias. In fact, now that I've posted an explanation of the data set this study used, you still haven't made any clarifications as to how it invokes bias. And you certainly haven't shown how it provides evidence for your claim that:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




Which, by the way, is the claim I would like you to support. I have made this pretty clear in the last few posts. So, I will pose my question again. Can you provide evidence to support your claim that social researchers are actively vested in disproving a correlation of IQ with wealth/income?

And if I have misunderstood your claim (you can see the small conversation we had regarding it in this post), please clarify.




Social scientists skew extremely liberal. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html?_r=0

I don't know if you remember the hue and cry that went up when The Bell Curve came out but they were pilloried by the community.  I think they are actively invested in providing external excuses for people's failures.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18795250 - 09/03/13 04:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Social scientists skew extremely liberal. 




Social scientists skewing liberal is not support for your claim. You claimed that they are actively invested in disproving that IQ and wealth are correlated. I am asking for evidence that supports this claim. An article about how most social scientists are liberal is not that evidence.

I figured the easiest and most direct evidence would come from the studies on this subject matter themselves. If the studies are really that biased, you should be able to find flaws in their methodology and explain how that is them actively trying to disprove any correlation, but I have not yet seen that, or any other evidence, to support your claim.

Quote:

I don't know if you remember the hue and cry that went up when The Bell Curve came out but they were pilloried by the community.  I think they are actively invested in providing external excuses for people's failures.




Or they were trying to point out flaws in the book. The most obvious of which is that the book was not peer-reviewed, and therefore the validity of the data is immediately in question, which is what caused a lot of the hubbub. Since that time, however, several peer reviews have been done and published and are available online if you are interested.

Furthermore, the criticism that the authors placed too much statistical importance on g (their measure of general intelligence) is well placed in my opinion. They did not put enough importance on family background or parental socioeconomic status. And separate investigations using the same data but weighting it differently (especially when it comes to the effects of education), found drastically different results, which further casts doubt on The Bell Curve's findings as a whole.

However, I will agree with you that The Bell Curve deserves praise for investigating something that isn't often looked at. It also deserves praise for triggering much more investigation into the topic matter. Irregardless of this, many of the criticisms are justified, and using this example does not support your claim that social scientists are actively invested in disproving relationships between IQ and wealth/income.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18795297 - 09/03/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Social scientists skew extremely liberal. 




Social scientists skewing liberal is not support for your claim. You claimed that they are actively invested in disproving that IQ and wealth are correlated. I am asking for evidence that supports this claim. An article about how most social scientists are liberal is not that evidence.




What do you think liberal means?
Quote:



I figured the easiest and most direct evidence would come from the studies on this subject matter themselves. If the studies are really that biased, you should be able to find flaws in their methodology and explain how that is them actively trying to disprove any correlation, but I have not yet seen that, or any other evidence, to support your claim.




I took apart the methodology of the only study in which the methodology was presented
Quote:



Quote:

I don't know if you remember the hue and cry that went up when The Bell Curve came out but they were pilloried by the community.  I think they are actively invested in providing external excuses for people's failures.




Or they were trying to point out flaws in the book. The most obvious of which is that the book was not peer-reviewed, and therefore the validity of the data is immediately in question, which is what caused a lot of the hubbub. Since that time, however, several peer reviews have been done and published and are available online if you are interested.




Not peer reviewed is now a flaw?  They reviewed it.  They went nuts
Quote:



Furthermore, the criticism that the authors placed too much statistical importance on g (their measure of general intelligence) is well placed in my opinion. They did not put enough importance on family background or parental socioeconomic status. And separate investigations using the same data but weighting it differently (especially when it comes to the effects of education), found drastically different results, which further casts doubt on The Bell Curve's findings as a whole.




I don't give a shit why people are stupid.  Just that they are.
Quote:



However, I will agree with you that The Bell Curve deserves praise for investigating something that isn't often looked at. It also deserves praise for triggering much more investigation into the topic matter. Irregardless of this, many of the criticisms are justified, and using this example does not support your claim that social scientists are actively invested in disproving relationships between IQ and wealth/income.




Perhaps we should do a study.  We can canvass social scientists and ask if they  are more likely to try to replicate Watson et al or disprove Watson et al.  Wanna bet how it turns out?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18795371 - 09/03/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think liberal means?




I don't think it means "One who is actively invested in disproving correlations between IQ and wealth." I am still waiting for you to present direct evidence to support your claim.

Quote:

I took apart the methodology of the only study in which the methodology was presented




Not true. You didn't present anything at all from the methodology of that study. The sentence you quoted the first time came from the abstract, and the few words you posted yesterday, came from the Introduction. Neither of which is the methodology, and neither time did you offer any insight or explanation of your own. When I questioned why you thought it showed bias (much less active intent to skew results), I received no response. That hardly constitutes "taking apart" and it certainly doesn't constitute evidence for your claim.

Furthermore, the methodology was presented in all the studies I linked, but from what I garner, you haven't read more than one of them. This is hardly enough information for you to make your claim.

Quote:

Not peer reviewed is now a flaw?  They reviewed it.  They went nuts




If author's were hoping for their data to be more credible, than it is their flaw. In the scientific community something that is not peer-reviewed carries far less credibility than something that is. This is why books are rarely cited in published studies. Peer-review allows the data and methodology to be examined by experts in the field for biases, errors, and omissions. Because The Bell Curve did not do this, it shouldn't be surprising that their findings weren't immediately accepted.

Quote:

I don't give a shit why people are stupid.  Just that they are.




What I posted in no way discussed reasons for people's stupidity, and your response is not a rebuttal. These were criticisms raised by multiple sources and still cast doubt on The Bell Curve's findings. If you are interested in proving your point, you need to show why these criticisms are not justified, and are instead the social scientists actively trying to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income.

Quote:

Perhaps we should do a study.  We can canvass social scientists and ask if they  are more likely to try to replicate Watson et al or disprove Watson et al.  Wanna bet how it turns out?




Do you have results for such study? Because if you don't then you are simply making assumptions. Either way, I still don't see how this supports your claim.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18795487 - 09/03/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

What do you think liberal means?




I don't think it means "One who is actively invested in disproving correlations between IQ and wealth." I am still waiting for you to present direct evidence to support your claim.

Quote:

I took apart the methodology of the only study in which the methodology was presented




Not true. You didn't present anything at all from the methodology of that study. The sentence you quoted the first time came from the abstract, and the few words you posted yesterday, came from the Introduction. Neither of which is the methodology, and neither time did you offer any insight or explanation of your own. When I questioned why you thought it showed bias (much less active intent to skew results), I received no response. That hardly constitutes "taking apart" and it certainly doesn't constitute evidence for your claim.

Furthermore, the methodology was presented in all the studies I linked, but from what I garner, you haven't read more than one of them. This is hardly enough information for you to make your claim.

Quote:

Not peer reviewed is now a flaw?  They reviewed it.  They went nuts




If author's were hoping for their data to be more credible, than it is their flaw. In the scientific community something that is not peer-reviewed carries far less credibility than something that is. This is why books are rarely cited in published studies. Peer-review allows the data and methodology to be examined by experts in the field for biases, errors, and omissions. Because The Bell Curve did not do this, it shouldn't be surprising that their findings weren't immediately accepted.




If your sample is unique to only that population, as the writers freely admit, their methodology cannot possibly apply beyond it
Quote:



Quote:

I don't give a shit why people are stupid.  Just that they are.




What I posted in no way discussed reasons for people's stupidity, and your response is not a rebuttal. These were criticisms raised by multiple sources and still cast doubt on The Bell Curve's findings. If you are interested in proving your point, you need to show why these criticisms are not justified, and are instead the social scientists actively trying to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income.


  What criticisms do you reference?  See below.

Quote:

Perhaps we should do a study.  We can canvass social scientists and ask if they  are more likely to try to replicate Watson et al or disprove Watson et al.  Wanna bet how it turns out?




Do you have results for such study? Because if you don't then you are simply making assumptions. Either way, I still don't see how this supports your claim.




I presented a hypothesis.  I suggested a study  Let's do it.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18795584 - 09/03/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If your sample is unique to only that population, as the writers freely admit, their methodology cannot possibly apply beyond it




EDIT: Looking back after writing all this, I can't tell what your comment is in response to. If it is in response to my comments on The Bell Curve, the below applies. If it is in response to comments about Hastrog, then skip to the bold "Edit 2".


Please cite in the book where they said that their results cannot be applied beyond that population.

One of their main parts in the book was all of the policy recommendations they made. For example, one section is entitled "More General Implications for Policy." One of the sections I remember debating before is:

"The technically precise description of America's fertility policy is that it subsidizes births among poor women, who are also disproportionately at the low end of the intelligence distribution. We urge generally that these policies, represented by the extensive network of cash and services for low-income women who have babies, be ended. The government should stop subsidizing births to anyone rich or poor. The other generic recommendation, as close to harmless as any government program we can imagine, is to make it easy for women to make good on their prior decision not to get pregnant by making available birth control mechanisms that are increasingly flexible, foolproof, inexpensive, and safe." (This excerpt begins on p.548 of the copy of The Bell Curve which I own. The page may be different if you are looking at a different copy.)

To me it seems that they had little interest in keeping their results specific to a unique population and instead wanted to make broad policy changes based on their findings. Do you disagree?

Also, do you have nothing further to say on Hastrog's and Oosterbeek's methodology? I assume by your lack of response that you cannot find any active intent to disprove anything in their methodology, but correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT 2: This is not evidence that they are biased or actively trying to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income. Please provide evidence for that.

Quote:

What criticisms do you reference?  See below.




Criticisms such as those brought up by Hout, Matthews, Korenman, and Heckman to name a few.

Quote:

I presented a hypothesis.  I suggested a study  Let's do it.




No "let's." The burden of proof for your claims is on you. Please conduct this study and post your results as well as your methodology. There is a wealth of data to collect from, and most of it should be easily accessible to you. Some of it will be available free of charge, but grants can cover your costs. I eagerly await the results.

In the meantime, you seem to be dodging my question repeatedly zappa. Do you have any direct evidence whatsoever to support your earlier claims?


Edited by BoldAsLove (09/03/13 06:45 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18799715 - 09/04/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I was talking about Hatrog in re: the unique nature of their sample size which has exactly zero applicability to US housing project denizens.  You have not presented one shred of evidence that they are not stupider than the general population and there has been other evidence that they are since their qualification for residence is based on income and not wealth. 


That the community of social scientists is invested in finding for liberal positions?  Are you fucking kidding me?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18799921 - 09/04/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

First of all, I missed anywhere in that paper where they related their findings to place of residence. They compared IQ to wealth, happiness, and health. As far as I can find, that's it. And again, this has nothing at all to do with you supporting your claim. See below.

Second, I am repeating myself on this point far too many times. You made a claim that the researchers who wrote the studies I cited (and perhaps more broadly, all social scientists; I can't tell from your wording) are personally invested, and actively seeking, to disprove any connection between IQ and wealth/income. For this claim, you have cited zero evidence. This is the claim I am asking you to support.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18800025 - 09/04/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
First of all, I missed anywhere in that paper where they related their findings to place of residence. They compared IQ to wealth, happiness, and health. As far as I can find, that's it. And again, this has nothing at all to do with you supporting your claim. See below.




Yes.  In a small group of unique subjects.  It is applicable to no one else.  See this post of yours regarding place of residence:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18765337#18765337
Quote:



Second, I am repeating myself on this point far too many times. You made a claim that the researchers who wrote the studies I cited (and perhaps more broadly, all social scientists; I can't tell from your wording) are personally invested, and actively seeking, to disprove any connection between IQ and wealth/income. For this claim, you have cited zero evidence. This is the claim I am asking you to support.




I made a claim about the social science community.  I made no claims about any specific researchers you cited.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18800150 - 09/04/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yes.  In a small group of unique subjects.  It is applicable to no one else.  See this post of yours regarding place of residence:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18765337#18765337




I think I'm confused as to the point of this post, so please clarify if I'm arguing something you didn't say.

First, the small group was actually nearly 3,000 participants. I found no reason that they were in any way not a good selection for most of the Dutch population, but I also don't know much of anything about the Dutch schooling system and therefore the Barbant survey is a little Greek to me. Regardless, I think their results can shed light on the Dutch population, but follow up studies are certainly needed to confirm their results.

Second, the authors made no claims on place of residence in their paper that I could find. So I think your post, two posts ago, is wrong. I likewise made no claims. The point I tried to make is that I don't think that income is necessarily a fair middle man to correlate IQ and government housing residents. I don't think wealth is fair to use either, but I do think it's surprising that IQ and income are correlated and IQ and wealth are not (yet?). This suggests that neither measure is a good way to gauge who will be living in government housing. I made the assumption that wealth would work a little better because those with extremely little wealth (not extremely low income) are the ones I'd consider "poor."

Regardless, this is why I wanted Simplicitry to post a direct study supporting his claim, but I saw none. And without the evidence, that I'm waiting for him to provide to support his claim, I feel like the discussion regarding place of residence is moot.


Quote:

I made a claim about the social science community.  I made no claims about any specific researchers you cited.




It doesn't change the point that you have presented an article which says most social scientists are liberal (big surprise, right?) and nothing else. Certainly no direct evidence for your claim, regardless of who it was applying to.

From what I found, the studies that I cited are a couple of the most prominent ones conducted regarding this subject, which is why I assumed your claim would also apply to them, but apparently I'm wrong. Do you believe the scientists who conducted the studies I posted were actively interested in using their results to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18800270 - 09/04/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Yes.  In a small group of unique subjects.  It is applicable to no one else.  See this post of yours regarding place of residence:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18765337#18765337




I think I'm confused as to the point of this post, so please clarify if I'm arguing something you didn't say.

First, the small group was actually nearly 3,000 participants. I found no reason that they were in any way not a good selection for most of the Dutch population, but I also don't know much of anything about the Dutch schooling system and therefore the Barbant survey is a little Greek to me. Regardless, I think their results can shed light on the Dutch population, but follow up studies are certainly needed to confirm their results.

Second, the authors made no claims on place of residence in their paper that I could find. So I think your post, two posts ago, is wrong. I likewise made no claims. The point I tried to make is that I don't think that income is necessarily a fair middle man to correlate IQ and government housing residents. I don't think wealth is fair to use either, but I do think it's surprising that IQ and income are correlated and IQ and wealth are not (yet?). This suggests that neither measure is a good way to gauge who will be living in government housing. I made the assumption that wealth would work a little better because those with extremely little wealth (not extremely low income) are the ones I'd consider "poor."




I think that was a mistake but not that important.  Wealth can come from an inheritance or a lottery ticket and has nothing to do with merit.
Quote:



 

Regardless, this is why I wanted Simplicitry to post a direct study supporting his claim, but I saw none. And without the evidence, that I'm waiting for him to provide to support his claim, I feel like the discussion regarding place of residence is moot.


Quote:

I made a claim about the social science community.  I made no claims about any specific researchers you cited.




It doesn't change the point that you have presented an article which says most social scientists are liberal (big surprise, right?) and nothing else. Certainly no direct evidence for your claim, regardless of who it was applying to.




Really?  Do you not think that the overwhelmingly liberal community of social scientists selects its studies based on their orientation?  They are human after all.
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~maccoun/ar_bias.html

Quote:

In this essay, I have cited a wealth of evidence that biased research interpretation is a common phenomenon




Quote:



From what I found, the studies that I cited are a couple of the most prominent ones conducted regarding this subject, which is why I assumed your claim would also apply to them, but apparently I'm wrong. Do you believe the scientists who conducted the studies I posted were actively interested in using their results to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income?




I could only read one study and it wasn't applicable and the authors made that self same point that it was not applicable to any other demographic.  Try this.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/02/06/correlations-of-iq-with-income-and-wealth/

Quote:

The relationship between IQ and income is somewhat correlated; in general, people with higher IQs make more money:





--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18804532 - 09/05/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I think that was a mistake but not that important.  Wealth can come from an inheritance or a lottery ticket and has nothing to do with merit.




I agree, wealth does not necessarily come from merit.

Quote:

Really?  Do you not think that the overwhelmingly liberal community of social scientists selects its studies based on their orientation?  They are human after all.
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~maccoun/ar_bias.html




You're right, I think their bias will mainly portray itself in the topics they choose to study. But I found nothing wrong with their (social scientists in general) findings thus far on this topic, or the methodology they used. Therefore I don't see how they were actively trying to disprove anything.

Quote:

I could only read one study and it wasn't applicable and the authors made that self same point that it was not applicable to any other demographic.  Try this.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/02/06/correlations-of-iq-with-income-and-wealth/




So, this article you just posted, takes those two figures from Zagorsky's paper. The one I posted earlier. And you only posted half of the relevant information. From your article, very next line down:

"But the relationship between IQ and wealth is all over the map"

And the conclusions he draws, are not the same ones that Zagorsky (the person who conducted the research, not the person who looked at the figures) draws. Zagorsky states in his abstract: "Financial distress, such as problems paying bills, going bankrupt or reaching credit card limits, is related to IQ scores not linearly but instead in a quadratic relationship. This means higher IQ scores sometimes increase the probability of being in financial difficulty."

And finally, the issue with drawing conclusions from those figures, is that they do not statistically eliminate other variables. The one I'm mainly thinking of is education. It stands to reason that those with a higher IQ are more likely to pursue some form of higher education, which increases their chance of a higher wage.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18804655 - 09/05/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I cannot comment on anything about Zygorski except what is freely available.  I am not paying $30 to read them and unless you're willing to put the paper out there for all to see you should stop citing it.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18804773 - 09/05/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The abstract, which I just cited, is freely available. You can go read it if you wish. You, likewise, shouldn't cite something that you haven't read. I was pointing out the flaw in the analysis of the data you presented. Should I let misinterpretations of data go un-corrected just because the study which the data comes from costs money? And I am not going to post a study which I don't own the rights to and isn't freely available, that's stealing.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18804834 - 09/05/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You keep insisting I comment on their methodology.  Will you just fucking stop with this nonsense?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18805408 - 09/05/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I haven't asked you to comment on their methodology since you said you didn't have free access to their paper a few days ago. I was simply pointing out that the article you pulled that info from doesn't tell the whole story and was trying to correct that.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Abortion: crime prevention?
( 1 2 3 all )
SneezingPenis 4,056 58 04/27/07 11:38 PM
by SneezingPenis
* On Capitolism, Poverty, and Suffering Eightball 2,569 18 07/07/02 10:07 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* The military are not that unintelligent FrenchSocialist 386 0 05/01/07 04:32 PM
by FrenchSocialist
* William Bennett... "abort every black baby to reduce crime"
( 1 2 3 all )
carbonhoots 3,946 47 10/05/05 08:09 AM
by SirTripAlot
* the "roots" of crime... Anonymous 637 8 09/17/04 06:07 PM
by Evolving
* Wal-Mart recruits intelligence officers FrenchSocialist 2,292 13 04/26/07 01:44 PM
by fireworks_god
* Thoughts On Poverty And its Absence. lonestar2004 2,615 12 06/28/05 03:06 PM
by RandalFlagg
* Central Banks and Poverty FrankieJustTrypt 726 5 10/12/04 07:14 PM
by FrankieJustTrypt

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,173 topic views. 6 members, 7 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.06 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 14 queries.