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Offlinexbloodwhipx

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Could you use force to keep a police out of your home
    #18753577 - 08/24/13 11:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If like, a cop came to your door with no warrant because your neighbor reported smelling marijuana. He ask if he can come in and search your house. You say no and he starts trying to push his way in.

What could you legally do to keep him out of your home?

Just a random though I had.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18753581 - 08/24/13 11:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

This thread was moved from The Pub.

Reason:
More topical forum


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: johnm214]
    #18753584 - 08/24/13 11:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

you have no power in that situation. I mean, even with video evidence, good luck suing a cop


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OfflinegENERIX
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #18755110 - 08/25/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Is the suspected smell of marijuana probable cause to allow the police to enter?!


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Offlinexbloodwhipx

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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: gENERIX]
    #18755652 - 08/25/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gENERIX said:
Is the suspected smell of marijuana probable cause to allow the police to enter?!



I thought they needed a warrant to enter your home, and probable cause only allows cops to search your car?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18755750 - 08/25/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gENERIX said:
Is the suspected smell of marijuana probable cause to allow the police to enter?!





Probably, but probable cause isn't enough for the police to force a warantless entry into a residence.


Quote:

xbloodwhipx said:
Quote:

gENERIX said:
Is the suspected smell of marijuana probable cause to allow the police to enter?!



I thought they needed a warrant to enter your home, and probable cause only allows cops to search your car?





THere isn't a contradiction between these two positions.  Warrants are issued upon a finding of probable cause.


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Offlinexbloodwhipx

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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: johnm214]
    #18756070 - 08/25/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So would you get in trouble if you pushed him back and locked your door?


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Invisiblemytehdogizflying
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18756373 - 08/25/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

xbloodwhipx said:
So would you get in trouble if you pushed him back and locked your door?




You could be charged with assaulting an officer.


--------------------
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Offlinexbloodwhipx

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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: mytehdogizflying]
    #18756377 - 08/25/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mytehdogizflying said:
Quote:

xbloodwhipx said:
So would you get in trouble if you pushed him back and locked your door?




You could be charged with assaulting an officer.




Whaaaaat? Even if hes trying to illegally enter your house?


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OnlineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18757371 - 08/25/13 09:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

xbloodwhipx said

Whaaaaat? Even if hes trying to illegally enter your house?





Yes.  The laws against assaulting an officer do not have an exception for when cops are breaking into your house.


Your only remedies are calling the cops, section 1983 lawsuit, filing a complaint at the station,  or filing a motion to suppress the evidence.


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OfflineRockhound
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18757602 - 08/25/13 10:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Don't open your door,talk to him ((or her) through the window.An open door and a step back on your part could be construed as a non-verbal invitation.Tell him through the window you do not consent to a warrantless search.


--------------------
Rocks speak to me, and tell me this:
The Hell Creek formation is a gigantic slab of rocks that covers several western states. It contains an account of the dinosaurs' demise.  In the late Cretaceous period, the first Cannabis species appear, and soon after, all the non-bird dinosaurs disappeared. Obviously, marihuana killed the dinosaurs. That giant meteor that smacked the yucatan peninsula right afterwards, coincidence.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 1
    #18757635 - 08/25/13 10:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

NEVER open the door for the cops or anyone you don't know. NEVER means NEVER.
Especially if you look freaky, smell like weed, or are a minority.

If they have a warrant let them break the door down.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18758789 - 08/26/13 08:16 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Think about it this way, if any stranger tries to push his way into your door, you don't have the right to use force to stop him unless you're in reasonable fear of imminent battery.  Of course, many states create a presumption of reasonable fear when you're in your home, but those statutes rarely apply to police.

So, the question is:  Can you prove that you were in reasonable fear of imminent battery?  If the cops are in uniform, you're going to have to prove that despite his badge and uniform, a reasonably prudent person would be afraid of being harmed by the cop.  That's a very tough sell, and I doubt you'd be able to do it.

Simply put, these situations should be handled later in litigation...not in the heat of the moment.  Using force to stop a cop is never going to work to your advantage.  At best, you'll end up being arrested and charged with an assault that might later be dismissed.  At worst, you'll be shot dead and your family will sue the cops.


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Offlinexbloodwhipx

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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Enlil]
    #18761381 - 08/26/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Think about it this way, if any stranger tries to push his way into your door, you don't have the right to use force to stop him unless you're in reasonable fear of imminent battery.  Of course, many states create a presumption of reasonable fear when you're in your home, but those statutes rarely apply to police.

So, the question is:  Can you prove that you were in reasonable fear of imminent battery?  If the cops are in uniform, you're going to have to prove that despite his badge and uniform, a reasonably prudent person would be afraid of being harmed by the cop.  That's a very tough sell, and I doubt you'd be able to do it.

Simply put, these situations should be handled later in litigation...not in the heat of the moment.  Using force to stop a cop is never going to work to your advantage.  At best, you'll end up being arrested and charged with an assault that might later be dismissed.  At worst, you'll be shot dead and your family will sue the cops.




So im guessing if you had a pistol on your waist, legally, and they tried to enter your home illegally, and you tried to stop them with force, they tried to shoot you and you shot them first, youd be charged with murder?

Thats fucked up...


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18761420 - 08/26/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

That would depend on if anyone died, but yes...if you shoot a cop, you're going to be charged.


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Anonymous #2

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Enlil]
    #18761617 - 08/26/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You have ZERO right to defend yourself against police.  It's the way the law is written.  You could come home from work and find a cop torturing your newborn baby by shoving a red hot poker into the baby's eyes.  Know how much right you have to defend yourself or your helpless infant?  ZERO.  That's why we wind up with cases like where 10 cops in plain clothes run out of the shadows, draw guns on someone, and in the course of fleeing they accidentally graze a cop (causing no injury) with the bumper of their car.  The innocent escapee then typically faces felony resisting with violence charges.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #18762545 - 08/27/13 04:35 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
You have ZERO right to defend yourself against police.  It's the way the law is written. 



This isn't true, either.  The reason that most self-defense claims fail when the victim is a cop isn't because of how the law is written.  It's because of the built-in credibility that cops enjoy.


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InvisibleCounterCulturest
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: johnm214]
    #18764441 - 08/27/13 03:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

gENERIX said:
Is the suspected smell of marijuana probable cause to allow the police to enter?!





Probably, but probable cause isn't enough for the police to force a warantless entry into a residence.


Quote:

xbloodwhipx said:
Quote:

gENERIX said:
Is the suspected smell of marijuana probable cause to allow the police to enter?!



I thought they needed a warrant to enter your home, and probable cause only allows cops to search your car?





THere isn't a contradiction between these two positions.  Warrants are issued upon a finding of probable cause.




I thought that is exactly what probably cause was ?

I was under the impression that if an officer could smell weed then he could enter or if he saw a pipe on the table through the window, he could enter. No ?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: CounterCulturest]
    #18764475 - 08/27/13 03:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CounterCulturest said:
I was under the impression that if an officer could smell weed then he could enter or if he saw a pipe on the table through the window, he could enter. No ?



The cops need a warrant to enter a residence in most cases.  Having probable cause without a warrant is NOT enough.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Enlil]
    #18764545 - 08/27/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

but probable cause is all they need to get a warrant, correct? So it would be the beginning of them entering, if they felt the need to be dicks and get the warrant.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #18764571 - 08/27/13 03:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sure, they could go to a judge with a sworn statement claiming they smelled weed.  If the house still has weed to be found when they return, whose stupid mistake is that?


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #18764590 - 08/27/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sure, they could go to a judge with a sworn statement claiming they smelled weed.  If the house still has weed to be found when they return, whose stupid mistake is that?



lol true.

I think its bullshit that a cops word is as good as proof.  :thefuckisthis:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #18764619 - 08/27/13 03:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It isn't, really...and it doesn't have to be a cop.  If your buddy goes down to the station and signs a sworn statement saying that he's seen your grow op, that's enough for a warrant as well.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Enlil]
    #18774297 - 08/29/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

About the only time a cop can bust in without a search warrant is if he believes someone is in immediate danger of being hurt, such as hearing a scream, or if he has an arrest warrant for someone in the house. There may be other instances but those are the only two i've heard of.

If you do not open the door you are in good shape. Shout through the door and if they can't hear you, too bad. If you open the door a crack it could let odor through so dont do it.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleCounterCulturest
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Stonehenge]
    #18774303 - 08/29/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Once he is in he in though right ? there is no getting him out


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: CounterCulturest] * 2
    #18774340 - 08/29/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You can try...


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OnlineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Global_Roaming]
    #18774393 - 08/29/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

Nothing to see here.  Everyone is having a good time.    Move along....Your job is done.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Stonehenge]
    #18774860 - 08/29/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
or if he has an arrest warrant for someone in the house.



This is enough to enter the house ONLY if it is the residence of the person named in the arrest warrant.  If it is someone else's house, they need a search warrant and an arrest warrant.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #18780111 - 08/31/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

NEVER open the door to cops EVER, if you have anything illegal inside or also in most other cases.

NEVER just throw your door open either!  Make it known to your friends that they knock then say something so you know who it is.  This works like magic, you can avoid salesmen, nosy neighbors, crackheads, dipshits, and other undesirables.  If you don't respond to a knock then nobody knows for sure if you're home or not.  Anyone who knows you will know that you don't answer the door unless you want to see the person outside.  When you don't answer friends will even know to state their business, so you can even screen friends based on why they are stopping by.

Not answering preserves a LOT of rights for you!  You can also claim that you didn't hear them (headphones, music, shower, in the back, hard of hearing, etc.)  Once you answer they can and do lie about what you said, how you sounded, etc..  They will lie (usually grossly exaggerate something subjective) and say things like, "His words were so slurred we thought he was in immediate need of medical attention."  It's much harder for them to make something up from nothing, and they don't like to lie about things that you could potentially prove so absolutely that they'd actually suffer consequences.

Repeatedly knocking on a door with no response from inside makes anyone feel like an idiot, even cops.  Most of the time they will just leave.  If anything ever comes up in court you can say that you never answer the door unless you know who is outside, and you'll have plenty of friends to back that story up.

Talking to the cops is a waste of time, and extremely dangerous to you.  It makes no sense to talk to police just to tell them you have nothing to say.

When you open the door it gives the cops a TON of power.  They'll say they smell weed, or any other bullshit excuse.  True or not they'll say that they have probable cause and don't need a warrant.  When you continue to refuse they will pull you outside and hold you until they get a warrant.

Cops don't just let you back inside to destroy the evidence, they hold you in handcuffs (for your own safety of course) in front of all your friends and neighbors for potentially hours.  Everyone in the area will get pissed at the flashing lights and scowl at you in the handcuffs.  Because it will take a long time for a warrant, everyone will assume that you are guilty of some serious crime.


The REAL answer for the OP is the standard answer... it varies by state.

For example, in Indiana it is not just legal to kill a cop who is illegally entering your place, they've actually passed a law that specifically gives you that right! (google the details)

I don't suggest killing cops.  It will ALWAYS be better for you legally if you don't, even if it's a "clean kill".


One time the cops came to my apartment, knocked and announced themselves.  I hollered back "We didn't order no fucking police!"  They said something else and I repeated the statement.  They knocked again to no answer from inside (or maybe just some laughter), then left.

I never even found out what they wanted, but I think some dipshit friend on probation put down our address on his paperwork.  In any case, they never came back or bothered us again.  Cops don't like to go to places where they know they'll be dissed and laughed at by people who don't respect them and know their rights.

It's probably a really good thing I didn't open the door because I'd have been damn tempted to kick them down the flight of stairs in the dark.  Zero chance they wouldn't have ended up at the bottom, probably quite hurt, and that would have ended poorly for me obviously.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid


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Offlineallreadyused
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #18804614 - 09/05/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know how true this is but...
I was told in Texas if you are being arrested for a crime you didn't commit you can use whatever deadly force needed to prevent that arrest?  Now I would imagine unless you intend to spend the rest of your life on the run you would eventually have to be found innocent in a court of law of the original crime they were trying to arrest you for.  Any Texans present?
Barry Cooper said never open the door for a cop.  Make them yell back and fourth between a closed window (if you open it up they can say they smell pot) or have them call you on the phone.  Never had to talk to a cop at home but I would imaging if I had to I would do it that way.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: allreadyused]
    #18805139 - 09/05/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

allreadyused said:
I don't know how true this is but...
I was told in Texas if you are being arrested for a crime you didn't commit you can use whatever deadly force needed to prevent that arrest?  Now I would imagine unless you intend to spend the rest of your life on the run you would eventually have to be found innocent in a court of law of the original crime they were trying to arrest you for.  Any Texans present?
Barry Cooper said never open the door for a cop.  Make them yell back and fourth between a closed window (if you open it up they can say they smell pot) or have them call you on the phone.  Never had to talk to a cop at home but I would imaging if I had to I would do it that way.



There is no way in hell that that is a real law. And if it is, definitely don't try to follow it/use it.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #18805905 - 09/06/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

> There is no way in hell that that is a real law.

No shit.

You're entitled to due process, which means there is never ANY excuse to resist a police officer.  The only justification you could ever come up with is some sort of rogue cop that is so hell bent on killing you that there would never be a chance to rectify it.  A cop doing something clearly illegal AND entering your home might lead you to reasonably believe that.  Pretty hard to float that boat any other way.


-FF


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18813097 - 09/07/13 09:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Three options from the referenced source below:

1. You can open the door, walk outside, close the door behind you, and talk with the officers on the porch.  Personally I don't like this one, because a determined officer will push their way in the moment you crack the door, and probably not give you a chance to walk outside.
2. Simply do not answer the door. Prolly best if you're high.
3. Install a chain lock--my preferred method. Then there's a physical barrier between you and the officer.

The above advice is is taken from this vid... start watching at 5:50:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mUv3A4hscc0#t=358



This is stickied in the the "Videos, Your Rights, and How to Deal with the Cops" thread stickied in this forum.

imnsho, this is mandatory material for pretty much everybody. In other words, take an hour to watch these vids. Many thanks to Alan for creating this thread.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241015

Chain locks on Amazon... many less than $10:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=door%20chain%20lock&sprefix=door+chain+%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Adoor%20chain%20lock


Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/07/13 09:49 PM)


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Anonymous #3

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18813144 - 09/07/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

xbloodwhipx said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Think about it this way, if any stranger tries to push his way into your door, you don't have the right to use force to stop him unless you're in reasonable fear of imminent battery.  Of course, many states create a presumption of reasonable fear when you're in your home, but those statutes rarely apply to police.

So, the question is:  Can you prove that you were in reasonable fear of imminent battery?  If the cops are in uniform, you're going to have to prove that despite his badge and uniform, a reasonably prudent person would be afraid of being harmed by the cop.  That's a very tough sell, and I doubt you'd be able to do it.

Simply put, these situations should be handled later in litigation...not in the heat of the moment.  Using force to stop a cop is never going to work to your advantage.  At best, you'll end up being arrested and charged with an assault that might later be dismissed.  At worst, you'll be shot dead and your family will sue the cops.




So im guessing if you had a pistol on your waist, legally, and they tried to enter your home illegally, and you tried to stop them with force, they tried to shoot you and you shot them first, youd be charged with murder?

Thats fucked up...



If they force their way into your home by breaking down your door you can shoot them in the fucking face.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #18813203 - 09/07/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
If they force their way into your home by breaking down your door you can shoot them in the fucking face.





You always have that option, but their friends will probably shoot you, and then arrest you for murder.  You will almost certainly lose at trial because judges do not like people who kill police.

If you want real protection from police breaking in, it would be a good idea to install a camera near the door that saves the video to an encrypted harddrive.  Linux encrpyted LVM and the motion software would be a good choice.  That way they can not lie as easily later about the reason they entered.




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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #18814060 - 09/08/13 05:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
1. You can open the door, walk outside, close the door behind you, and talk with the officers on the porch.  Personally I don't like this one, because a determined officer will push their way in the moment you crack the door, and probably not give you a chance to walk outside.
2. Simply do not answer the door. Prolly best if you're high.
3. Install a chain lock--my preferred method. Then there's a physical barrier between you and the officer.




Only #2 is a good answer.  Once you're outside they can easily detain you until they get a warrant.  All the while you'll be badgered by them or in handcuffs in front of the neighborhood.

When someone comes to your door, who knows why they're there?  Could be just something like getting served papers.


Your home is your home.  Doesn't matter if you're there or not.

Not answering = they have to violate your constitutionally protected home.

Answering in any way = them able to attach any rights they may have against YOU towards violating the constitutional protections of your home.


One thing should be made clear...  Cops will lie and say they immediately recognized your voice if it later can be proved that you were you.  One peep gives them the world, legally, in many cases.

One peep and legally you are recognized, intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, angry, etc., etc. in the police report.

If you utter no peep whatsoever then they can say NONE of that.

Hopefully Enlil will back me up on that.  One peep and the officer can testify to the court that you sounded intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, angry, etc. and that in their experience that indicated that more likely than not a crime was in progress, which justifies whatever action they took.

OTOH if they try to say that silence or background noise indicated to them... well anything, then they can't really say anything at all, and have no justification for any action they may have taken.

The system often works, if you avail yourself of every right you have at every step.

Waive any option at any point, and you basically deserve what you get.


-FF


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: fastfred] * 1
    #18814539 - 09/08/13 10:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Hopefully Enlil will back me up on that.  One peep and the officer can testify to the court that you sounded intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, angry, etc. and that in their experience that indicated that more likely than not a crime was in progress, which justifies whatever action they took.



I can't back you up on that.  Being intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, or angry doesn't give the cops any probable cause to support a search or a warrant for a search of your home.  It is perfectly legal to be all of the above in your own home, and the cops can testify all they want about it...it doesn't support a search or a warrant.  The test isn't whether the cops think that such behavior indicates criminal activity.  The test is whether it creates OBJECTIVELY reasonable probable cause.  It's unlikely a lower court would uphold a search based on those, and highly unlikely that a higher court would.

Unless the cops are willing to testify that you gave consent or that they literally heard a crime in progress (such as beating someone up, etc), the search is almost certain to be held improper.

This is the real reason for not talking to the police, BTW.  It isn't that you'll sound incoherent or intoxicated...none of that matters in your home (in your car, obviously, it's different)...The problem is that any equivocation about whether you give consent will be interpreted as consent.  Most people aren't pedantic enough to handle the way cops twist words.  Cops have a way of phrasing things so that most people will respond with just vague enough language that a cop can arguably claim that you gave consent to search.

I've seen it at least 50 times, too.  This is standard cop procedure.  They'll ask for consent, and if they get a refusal, they'll start pressing you until you give them something they can use.  Examples:

Cop:  Sir, are you trying to interfere with us doing our job?
Suspect: No, do what you have to do.

Cop:  Are you resisting?
Suspect: No, I'm not stopping you from anything.

Cop:  I need you to cooperate, sir.
Suspect: I'm willing to cooperate completely.

The cops, whether by intentional twisting of your words or honest misunderstanding, will often assume that each of the above answers are consent.  In court, they've only got to prove that they had a "good faith belief" that you consented.  The proper answer to each question is, "I do not consent to any searches whatsoever, but I will not physically hinder any actions you choose to take against my will"

Truthfully, most people are not equipped to handle police tactics, so silence is a better option.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18814869 - 09/08/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Anonymous said:
If they force their way into your home by breaking down your door you can shoot them in the fucking face.





You always have that option, but their friends will probably shoot you, and then arrest you for murder.  You will almost certainly lose at trial because judges do not like people who kill police.

If you want real protection from police breaking in, it would be a good idea to install a camera near the door that saves the video to an encrypted harddrive.  Linux encrpyted LVM and the motion software would be a good choice.  That way they can not lie as easily later about the reason they entered.






That's true about them possibly killing you, and cameras definitely would be a good idea.  In court, the fact that your door was broken down would be a big plus in your favor.

Another thing that would be really helpful in court is if you call 911 and say,"There is an officer outside my door threatening me and attempting to break into my home, I'm scared for my life!  If he breaks in I will defend myself." 

A friend of mine's mom is a courtroom cop, and had a run in with police.  She told them verbatim,"if you come into my house I will shoot you in your fucking face."  I'd say she'd fair better in court than a civilian.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #18814993 - 09/08/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:

Another thing that would be really helpful in court is if you call 911 and say,"There is an officer outside my door threatening me and attempting to break into my home, I'm scared for my life!  If he breaks in I will defend myself."



That is a terrible idea.  Admitting that you knew it was an officer before he broke down the door is pretty much the end of any self-defense claim.  At trial, you'd be unable to establish that you were in reasonable fear.  In fact, the 911 recording would pretty much be enough by itself for the state to prove that any fear that you had was decidedly unreasonable.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Enlil]
    #18815862 - 09/08/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Breaking and entering (and assault if the officer is threatening you) is still breaking and entering if it's done by a police officer or the president himself.  Just because it's a police officer means shit.  Cops do not have the right to kick down your door without a warrant.  Maybe if they were looking through the window and saw that you were stabbing someone (or something similar).  Short of that, they can not break in.

Quote:

In fact, the 911 recording would pretty much be enough by itself for the state to prove that any fear that you had was decidedly unreasonable.



Bullshit! There was a story about an 18 year old girl who basically said the same thing while on the phone with 911.  A scumbag neighbor of hers was trying to break in to rape her, she said something like "I'm scared can I shoot him if he gets in?"  The 911 dispatcher said I cant tell you to do that but you have the right to protect yourself.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #18815896 - 09/08/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You could also just say that someone is trying to break into your house and not mention that you knew it was a pig.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Enlil]
    #18815914 - 09/08/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The proper answer to each question is, "I do not consent to any searches whatsoever, but I will not physically hinder any actions you choose to take against my will"






Great advice!


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #18816146 - 09/08/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:

Bullshit! There was a story about an 18 year old girl who basically said the same thing while on the phone with 911.  A scumbag neighbor of hers was trying to break in to rape her, she said something like "I'm scared can I shoot him if he gets in?"  The 911 dispatcher said I cant tell you to do that but you have the right to protect yourself.



Was the neighbor wearing a police uniform?  I didn't think so.

You are clearly talking out of your ass here.  Someone breaking into your house doesn't give you the right to kill them in any state in the country.  At most, it gives you a rebuttable presumption that you're in reasonable fear of serious bodily harm.  That presumption, however, is pretty much rendered moot if you know that it's a cop coming into your house.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #18817221 - 09/08/13 11:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

At most, it gives you a rebuttable presumption that you're in reasonable fear of serious bodily harm.




In which you could react to

and also
Quote:

Anonymous said:
You could also just say that someone is trying to break into your house and not mention that you knew it was a pig.




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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #18817814 - 09/09/13 04:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Again, you are talking out of your ass here.  A rebuttable presumption just means that IN COURT, the state has the burden of rebutting the presumption.  In their case in chief, they introduce the 911 call where you say that cops are outside your house, and they've almost certainly rebut that presumption unless you have the most jaded jury on the planet.

Even without the 911 call, the fact that the cops have uniforms make it very easy for the state to rebut.  As I said before, unless you happen to have the gun on your lap and shoot the instant that the door opens, you're probably fucked on a self-defense argument.  If you had time to identify the "intruders" as cops, it's going to have a very hard time convincing a jury that you were in reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily harm.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Enlil]
    #18818396 - 09/09/13 10:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Notwithstanding the above discussion, in some circumstances, I think that answering the door--with the chain--is the best option.

Heck, what if they just want you to move your car?


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"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Enlil]
    #18820027 - 09/09/13 06:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

fastfred said:
Hopefully Enlil will back me up on that.  One peep and the officer can testify to the court that you sounded intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, angry, etc. and that in their experience that indicated that more likely than not a crime was in progress, which justifies whatever action they took.



I can't back you up on that.  Being intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, or angry doesn't give the cops any probable cause to support a search or a warrant for a search of your home.




I wasn't really saying this gives them cause, but it is something they will say at trial.  It's another nail in your coffin and makes you sound like a scumbag.  Many jurors will think that shitfaced drunk = most likely a criminal.  The officer can continue to spin that by saying that "In my many years of experience I have found criminal activity 99% of the time in people who respond this way."

If things work out right, and often they don't, a judge will suppress the evidence.  I think when a jury hears this though they go with their gut and you're sunk.

In any case, we both seem to agree that saying anything can only hurt you.

Quote:

Notwithstanding the above discussion, in some circumstances, I think that answering the door--with the chain--is the best option.

Heck, what if they just want you to move your car?




Wrong.  There's two ways that goes.  If you car is parked legally then who gives a shit?  If it's parked illegally then you're facing a parking ticket, or at most a $150 tow charge.  If things go south on you you're facing a hell of a lot more than that.

Any interaction with the police can quickly go south on you, non-interaction very, very rarely can ever hurt you.


-FF


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: fastfred]
    #18820046 - 09/09/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The jury won't ever hear the officer's opinion about what this means in 99% of the cases.  It's highly unlikely the jury will hear anything about the conversation unless it directly bears on whatever you're charged with.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Enlil]
    #18820127 - 09/09/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The jury won't ever hear the officer's opinion about what this means in 99% of the cases.  It's highly unlikely the jury will hear anything about the conversation unless it directly bears on whatever you're charged with.




I've seen it a few times.  "He looked, sounded, and acted like he was high on drugs, which is why I searched him for drugs."  They can make it sound pretty reasonable in court.

That's a big stretch if all they have is the sound of your voice, but that's still one more thing they will have than if you stayed silent.

Don't put it past them to say they heard a lighter, bong or pipe hit, distorted voice like holding in a hit, and coughing.  If they say this combined with the fact that you were slurring your words in an intoxicated way while taunting them from the other side of the door... it can be convincing.

And what if they parlay that?  Your voice, responses, and other noise led them to believe a crime was in progress or someone's safety was in danger.  So they forced the door open with no intention of entering or searching.  At which point they visibly observed you or your place which indicated a crime was in progress.

I'm no legal expert, but I've seen many things floated before.  IME you've got a maybe 50/50 chance of getting something clearly illegal suppressed, and that involves $1,000's in legal bills.

So whether or not it eventually holds up you're still fucked.  If you give them anything you may well be out your money, drugs, property, cash, and freedom.  Eventually getting some of that back is really not a "win" for the person involved.


-FF


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #18820931 - 09/09/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I am not sure if this is 100% correct but I have believed that they required probably cause and evidence to enter. Since they have no evidence of the smell of weed unless another person attest to the smell they cannot enter. I may be wrong though.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: SteelPanther]
    #18822039 - 09/10/13 04:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, you are wrong.

They need a warrant to enter.  They need probable cause to get a warrant.  Probable cause can be based on a sworn statement from any person, including a cop.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Enlil]
    #18918359 - 10/01/13 09:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

this is some highly informative and wild shit!!! I personally think most of our enforcers are corrupt due to greed and power!:mushroom2:


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Anonymous #4

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #19049298 - 10/28/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

simple "DON'T ANSWER THE DOOR"

Never ever answer the door. They can not come in. Unless they hear screaming for help or reason to believe someone, even your self is in harms ways.


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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #4]
    #19050125 - 10/29/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Don't open the door, don't consent to searches, don't say anything except for yes or no.
3 simple rules to live by.


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