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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #18764571 - 08/27/13 03:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sure, they could go to a judge with a sworn statement claiming they smelled weed.  If the house still has weed to be found when they return, whose stupid mistake is that?


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #18764590 - 08/27/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sure, they could go to a judge with a sworn statement claiming they smelled weed.  If the house still has weed to be found when they return, whose stupid mistake is that?



lol true.

I think its bullshit that a cops word is as good as proof.  :thefuckisthis:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #18764619 - 08/27/13 03:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It isn't, really...and it doesn't have to be a cop.  If your buddy goes down to the station and signs a sworn statement saying that he's seen your grow op, that's enough for a warrant as well.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Enlil]
    #18774297 - 08/29/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

About the only time a cop can bust in without a search warrant is if he believes someone is in immediate danger of being hurt, such as hearing a scream, or if he has an arrest warrant for someone in the house. There may be other instances but those are the only two i've heard of.

If you do not open the door you are in good shape. Shout through the door and if they can't hear you, too bad. If you open the door a crack it could let odor through so dont do it.


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InvisibleCounterCulturest
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Stonehenge]
    #18774303 - 08/29/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Once he is in he in though right ? there is no getting him out


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InvisibleGlobal_Roaming
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: CounterCulturest] * 2
    #18774340 - 08/29/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You can try...


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Global_Roaming]
    #18774393 - 08/29/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

Nothing to see here.  Everyone is having a good time.    Move along....Your job is done.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Stonehenge]
    #18774860 - 08/29/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
or if he has an arrest warrant for someone in the house.



This is enough to enter the house ONLY if it is the residence of the person named in the arrest warrant.  If it is someone else's house, they need a search warrant and an arrest warrant.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #18780111 - 08/31/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

NEVER open the door to cops EVER, if you have anything illegal inside or also in most other cases.

NEVER just throw your door open either!  Make it known to your friends that they knock then say something so you know who it is.  This works like magic, you can avoid salesmen, nosy neighbors, crackheads, dipshits, and other undesirables.  If you don't respond to a knock then nobody knows for sure if you're home or not.  Anyone who knows you will know that you don't answer the door unless you want to see the person outside.  When you don't answer friends will even know to state their business, so you can even screen friends based on why they are stopping by.

Not answering preserves a LOT of rights for you!  You can also claim that you didn't hear them (headphones, music, shower, in the back, hard of hearing, etc.)  Once you answer they can and do lie about what you said, how you sounded, etc..  They will lie (usually grossly exaggerate something subjective) and say things like, "His words were so slurred we thought he was in immediate need of medical attention."  It's much harder for them to make something up from nothing, and they don't like to lie about things that you could potentially prove so absolutely that they'd actually suffer consequences.

Repeatedly knocking on a door with no response from inside makes anyone feel like an idiot, even cops.  Most of the time they will just leave.  If anything ever comes up in court you can say that you never answer the door unless you know who is outside, and you'll have plenty of friends to back that story up.

Talking to the cops is a waste of time, and extremely dangerous to you.  It makes no sense to talk to police just to tell them you have nothing to say.

When you open the door it gives the cops a TON of power.  They'll say they smell weed, or any other bullshit excuse.  True or not they'll say that they have probable cause and don't need a warrant.  When you continue to refuse they will pull you outside and hold you until they get a warrant.

Cops don't just let you back inside to destroy the evidence, they hold you in handcuffs (for your own safety of course) in front of all your friends and neighbors for potentially hours.  Everyone in the area will get pissed at the flashing lights and scowl at you in the handcuffs.  Because it will take a long time for a warrant, everyone will assume that you are guilty of some serious crime.


The REAL answer for the OP is the standard answer... it varies by state.

For example, in Indiana it is not just legal to kill a cop who is illegally entering your place, they've actually passed a law that specifically gives you that right! (google the details)

I don't suggest killing cops.  It will ALWAYS be better for you legally if you don't, even if it's a "clean kill".


One time the cops came to my apartment, knocked and announced themselves.  I hollered back "We didn't order no fucking police!"  They said something else and I repeated the statement.  They knocked again to no answer from inside (or maybe just some laughter), then left.

I never even found out what they wanted, but I think some dipshit friend on probation put down our address on his paperwork.  In any case, they never came back or bothered us again.  Cops don't like to go to places where they know they'll be dissed and laughed at by people who don't respect them and know their rights.

It's probably a really good thing I didn't open the door because I'd have been damn tempted to kick them down the flight of stairs in the dark.  Zero chance they wouldn't have ended up at the bottom, probably quite hurt, and that would have ended poorly for me obviously.


-FF


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Offlineallreadyused
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: fastfred]
    #18804614 - 09/05/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know how true this is but...
I was told in Texas if you are being arrested for a crime you didn't commit you can use whatever deadly force needed to prevent that arrest?  Now I would imagine unless you intend to spend the rest of your life on the run you would eventually have to be found innocent in a court of law of the original crime they were trying to arrest you for.  Any Texans present?
Barry Cooper said never open the door for a cop.  Make them yell back and fourth between a closed window (if you open it up they can say they smell pot) or have them call you on the phone.  Never had to talk to a cop at home but I would imaging if I had to I would do it that way.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: allreadyused]
    #18805139 - 09/05/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

allreadyused said:
I don't know how true this is but...
I was told in Texas if you are being arrested for a crime you didn't commit you can use whatever deadly force needed to prevent that arrest?  Now I would imagine unless you intend to spend the rest of your life on the run you would eventually have to be found innocent in a court of law of the original crime they were trying to arrest you for.  Any Texans present?
Barry Cooper said never open the door for a cop.  Make them yell back and fourth between a closed window (if you open it up they can say they smell pot) or have them call you on the phone.  Never had to talk to a cop at home but I would imaging if I had to I would do it that way.



There is no way in hell that that is a real law. And if it is, definitely don't try to follow it/use it.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home (moved) [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #18805905 - 09/06/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

> There is no way in hell that that is a real law.

No shit.

You're entitled to due process, which means there is never ANY excuse to resist a police officer.  The only justification you could ever come up with is some sort of rogue cop that is so hell bent on killing you that there would never be a chance to rectify it.  A cop doing something clearly illegal AND entering your home might lead you to reasonably believe that.  Pretty hard to float that boat any other way.


-FF


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18813097 - 09/07/13 09:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Three options from the referenced source below:

1. You can open the door, walk outside, close the door behind you, and talk with the officers on the porch.  Personally I don't like this one, because a determined officer will push their way in the moment you crack the door, and probably not give you a chance to walk outside.
2. Simply do not answer the door. Prolly best if you're high.
3. Install a chain lock--my preferred method. Then there's a physical barrier between you and the officer.

The above advice is is taken from this vid... start watching at 5:50:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mUv3A4hscc0#t=358



This is stickied in the the "Videos, Your Rights, and How to Deal with the Cops" thread stickied in this forum.

imnsho, this is mandatory material for pretty much everybody. In other words, take an hour to watch these vids. Many thanks to Alan for creating this thread.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241015

Chain locks on Amazon... many less than $10:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=door%20chain%20lock&sprefix=door+chain+%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Adoor%20chain%20lock


Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/07/13 09:49 PM)


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Anonymous #3

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18813144 - 09/07/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

xbloodwhipx said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Think about it this way, if any stranger tries to push his way into your door, you don't have the right to use force to stop him unless you're in reasonable fear of imminent battery.  Of course, many states create a presumption of reasonable fear when you're in your home, but those statutes rarely apply to police.

So, the question is:  Can you prove that you were in reasonable fear of imminent battery?  If the cops are in uniform, you're going to have to prove that despite his badge and uniform, a reasonably prudent person would be afraid of being harmed by the cop.  That's a very tough sell, and I doubt you'd be able to do it.

Simply put, these situations should be handled later in litigation...not in the heat of the moment.  Using force to stop a cop is never going to work to your advantage.  At best, you'll end up being arrested and charged with an assault that might later be dismissed.  At worst, you'll be shot dead and your family will sue the cops.




So im guessing if you had a pistol on your waist, legally, and they tried to enter your home illegally, and you tried to stop them with force, they tried to shoot you and you shot them first, youd be charged with murder?

Thats fucked up...



If they force their way into your home by breaking down your door you can shoot them in the fucking face.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #18813203 - 09/07/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
If they force their way into your home by breaking down your door you can shoot them in the fucking face.





You always have that option, but their friends will probably shoot you, and then arrest you for murder.  You will almost certainly lose at trial because judges do not like people who kill police.

If you want real protection from police breaking in, it would be a good idea to install a camera near the door that saves the video to an encrypted harddrive.  Linux encrpyted LVM and the motion software would be a good choice.  That way they can not lie as easily later about the reason they entered.




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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #18814060 - 09/08/13 05:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
1. You can open the door, walk outside, close the door behind you, and talk with the officers on the porch.  Personally I don't like this one, because a determined officer will push their way in the moment you crack the door, and probably not give you a chance to walk outside.
2. Simply do not answer the door. Prolly best if you're high.
3. Install a chain lock--my preferred method. Then there's a physical barrier between you and the officer.




Only #2 is a good answer.  Once you're outside they can easily detain you until they get a warrant.  All the while you'll be badgered by them or in handcuffs in front of the neighborhood.

When someone comes to your door, who knows why they're there?  Could be just something like getting served papers.


Your home is your home.  Doesn't matter if you're there or not.

Not answering = they have to violate your constitutionally protected home.

Answering in any way = them able to attach any rights they may have against YOU towards violating the constitutional protections of your home.


One thing should be made clear...  Cops will lie and say they immediately recognized your voice if it later can be proved that you were you.  One peep gives them the world, legally, in many cases.

One peep and legally you are recognized, intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, angry, etc., etc. in the police report.

If you utter no peep whatsoever then they can say NONE of that.

Hopefully Enlil will back me up on that.  One peep and the officer can testify to the court that you sounded intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, angry, etc. and that in their experience that indicated that more likely than not a crime was in progress, which justifies whatever action they took.

OTOH if they try to say that silence or background noise indicated to them... well anything, then they can't really say anything at all, and have no justification for any action they may have taken.

The system often works, if you avail yourself of every right you have at every step.

Waive any option at any point, and you basically deserve what you get.


-FF


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: fastfred] * 1
    #18814539 - 09/08/13 10:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Hopefully Enlil will back me up on that.  One peep and the officer can testify to the court that you sounded intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, angry, etc. and that in their experience that indicated that more likely than not a crime was in progress, which justifies whatever action they took.



I can't back you up on that.  Being intoxicated, high, nervous, deceptive, belligerent, incoherent, or angry doesn't give the cops any probable cause to support a search or a warrant for a search of your home.  It is perfectly legal to be all of the above in your own home, and the cops can testify all they want about it...it doesn't support a search or a warrant.  The test isn't whether the cops think that such behavior indicates criminal activity.  The test is whether it creates OBJECTIVELY reasonable probable cause.  It's unlikely a lower court would uphold a search based on those, and highly unlikely that a higher court would.

Unless the cops are willing to testify that you gave consent or that they literally heard a crime in progress (such as beating someone up, etc), the search is almost certain to be held improper.

This is the real reason for not talking to the police, BTW.  It isn't that you'll sound incoherent or intoxicated...none of that matters in your home (in your car, obviously, it's different)...The problem is that any equivocation about whether you give consent will be interpreted as consent.  Most people aren't pedantic enough to handle the way cops twist words.  Cops have a way of phrasing things so that most people will respond with just vague enough language that a cop can arguably claim that you gave consent to search.

I've seen it at least 50 times, too.  This is standard cop procedure.  They'll ask for consent, and if they get a refusal, they'll start pressing you until you give them something they can use.  Examples:

Cop:  Sir, are you trying to interfere with us doing our job?
Suspect: No, do what you have to do.

Cop:  Are you resisting?
Suspect: No, I'm not stopping you from anything.

Cop:  I need you to cooperate, sir.
Suspect: I'm willing to cooperate completely.

The cops, whether by intentional twisting of your words or honest misunderstanding, will often assume that each of the above answers are consent.  In court, they've only got to prove that they had a "good faith belief" that you consented.  The proper answer to each question is, "I do not consent to any searches whatsoever, but I will not physically hinder any actions you choose to take against my will"

Truthfully, most people are not equipped to handle police tactics, so silence is a better option.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18814869 - 09/08/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Anonymous said:
If they force their way into your home by breaking down your door you can shoot them in the fucking face.





You always have that option, but their friends will probably shoot you, and then arrest you for murder.  You will almost certainly lose at trial because judges do not like people who kill police.

If you want real protection from police breaking in, it would be a good idea to install a camera near the door that saves the video to an encrypted harddrive.  Linux encrpyted LVM and the motion software would be a good choice.  That way they can not lie as easily later about the reason they entered.






That's true about them possibly killing you, and cameras definitely would be a good idea.  In court, the fact that your door was broken down would be a big plus in your favor.

Another thing that would be really helpful in court is if you call 911 and say,"There is an officer outside my door threatening me and attempting to break into my home, I'm scared for my life!  If he breaks in I will defend myself." 

A friend of mine's mom is a courtroom cop, and had a run in with police.  She told them verbatim,"if you come into my house I will shoot you in your fucking face."  I'd say she'd fair better in court than a civilian.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #18814993 - 09/08/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:

Another thing that would be really helpful in court is if you call 911 and say,"There is an officer outside my door threatening me and attempting to break into my home, I'm scared for my life!  If he breaks in I will defend myself."



That is a terrible idea.  Admitting that you knew it was an officer before he broke down the door is pretty much the end of any self-defense claim.  At trial, you'd be unable to establish that you were in reasonable fear.  In fact, the 911 recording would pretty much be enough by itself for the state to prove that any fear that you had was decidedly unreasonable.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Could you use force to keep a police out of your home [Re: Enlil]
    #18815862 - 09/08/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Breaking and entering (and assault if the officer is threatening you) is still breaking and entering if it's done by a police officer or the president himself.  Just because it's a police officer means shit.  Cops do not have the right to kick down your door without a warrant.  Maybe if they were looking through the window and saw that you were stabbing someone (or something similar).  Short of that, they can not break in.

Quote:

In fact, the 911 recording would pretty much be enough by itself for the state to prove that any fear that you had was decidedly unreasonable.



Bullshit! There was a story about an 18 year old girl who basically said the same thing while on the phone with 911.  A scumbag neighbor of hers was trying to break in to rape her, she said something like "I'm scared can I shoot him if he gets in?"  The 911 dispatcher said I cant tell you to do that but you have the right to protect yourself.


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