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Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates?
    #1875254 -

I ran across a whole series of articals addressing the issue of human propensity for spicey foods. Most of the articals are in the realm of evolution and primarly evolutionary psychology but I couldn't help but wonder about there application in the realm of mycology.

The primary finding was that common spices had a very pronounced antimicrobial effect. At first this doesnt sound that promising because fungi might be too adversly effected but most of the findings seemed to show that spices had a much greater effect on bacteria than fungi. Here is a quote from one paper:

"Inhibition of bacteria is especially important because they are more common in outbreaks of food-borne diseases and food poisoning than are fungi. Of the 30 spices for which information was available, all inhibited or killed at least one-quarter of the bacterial species on which they were tested, and half the spices inhibited or killed three-quarters of these bacteria. The four most potent spices--garlic, onion, allspice and oregano--killed every bacterial species tested. Most of the bacteria that were tested are widely distributed and are frequently implicated in food-borne illness."

"Bacteria have been more commonly incriminated in food poisoning and foodborne disease outbreaks than yeasts and fungi (e.g., Varnam and Evans 1991; Todd 1994, 1996)."

"We obtained information on the antibacterial properties of 30 spices (Appendix A). All of them (100%) inhibit some species of bacteria, 24 (80%) inhibit [is greater than or equal to] 50%, 15 (50%) inhibit [is greater than or equal to] 75%, and 4 (13%) inhibit 100% (Figure 6). The average spice inhibits 67% (+23%) of bacteria. Garlic, onion, allspice and oregano inhibit every bacterium they have been tested on; at the other extreme, lemon and lime juice inhibit only 24% of bacteria. "


So I was thinking these spices might be a common, cheap and easy tool for controling or killing bacterial infections. I was wondering what thoughts you guys might have?

I am interested in testing this further, but had some questions. What are the most common types of bacteria one encounters in substrates such as grain? One of the articals included an extensive Appendix with a list of spices and the type of bacteria they were found to inhibit or kill.

Also what type of grain or other substrate is MOST subsebtable to bacteria infection in your expirence? If I want to play with this I want one that has a fairly high propensity for nasty bacteria growth. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875296 -

nice job! maybe we can figure out something to avoid those bacterial blooms we get now and then. If garlic can fuckup some vampires :wink: maybe we can use it.

I'm going to be trying this.


--------------------
Raadt

-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Raadt]
    #1875300 -

The main spices were garlic, onion, allspice and oregano. They had the most inhibitory effect. But if there is an interest I will go ahead and post the full list of spices and bacteria they effect.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875336 -

I'm interested ;p


--------------------
Raadt

-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Raadt]
    #1875423 -

I had trouble formating for a post, and it was too big anyway for casual inspection so I placed it on geocities.

http://www.geocities.com/taoshroom/appendix.htm

Garlic looks like the best shot too me. It inhibits the most bacteria and seems to have been tested on some common problematic ones like Bacillus and Pseudomonas.

I am going to set up and expirement with grains, do some control jars and then some with garlic see what effect I can document. I am also going to try and see what kind of effect if any it has on spore germination and mycelium development. Once I get things underway I will post my procedure/pictures and data.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875679 -

What en excellent find. Props to you. I have a question: What form were the spices in?
i.e. fresh and whole?; minced; extract,oil; dried
Maybe it will say in your link.


--------------------
"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Vertigo]
    #1875693 -

No it doesn't. Could you provide the exact link or describe how the spices were used?


--------------------
"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Vertigo]
    #1875791 -

The main articles I was looking at were meta-studies with huge bibliographies. From what I can tell most studies used either an extract or a powdered form. It doesnt appear that fresh was ever really used.

Garlic is the main one that is peaking my interest. Several studies I looked up seem to show that Garlic Powder(GP) and Garlic Oil (GO) both have the nessicary antibacterial ingrediants.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875864 -

It would be important to find out garlic's anti-fungal properties.
This could be a major break through.


--------------------
"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Vertigo]
    #1875886 -

Working on setting up an expirement now, going to get some garlic oil and garlic powder and try it both on control jars and then on some that I actually innoculate and see if the garlic inhibits mycelium growth as well.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875894 -

Cool PM med if this thread gets lost.


--------------------
"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875918 -

Just a suggestion, but it seems like essential oil would be the best (if not the more expensive) form of each substance to make use of. That having been said, a couple of different methods could be used to test this. One procedure I can come up with would entail pre-soaking the grains with the essential oil, but it seems likely that a fair amount of the anti-bacterial effects would be lost in the sterilisation/PC step. Would you be trying to sterilise during the trials or would you rather just let it go without sterility to see if the various substances can be astoundingly successful? Perhaps another method would be to sterilise and then spritz a fine spray of the essential oil into the jars during the innoculation phase.

Alternatively, it would be interesting to insert the substances into or on to the final substrate during the spawning stage. Mix the herbs or essential oils of the herbs at the same time that you mix the grain spawn into the final substrate (or when you're ready to case).

Possible obstacles: many essential oils are alcohol-based; essential oils often have greatly different characteristics than their whole counterpart -- hence, your use of powder might be more on target; determining the likelihood of having a contamination to 'beat out' without purposely adding the contamination. Perhaps it would be best to test specific herbs/spices against the most prevalent contaminants and then, after determining which were most effective, working them into the process of actually growing the mushrooms. Just have to make sure that it's going to work AGAINST the bacteria and FOR the mushroom.

Happy experimenting. Keep us updated.

BTW, do the articles talk much about how those substances were added to the food to retard bacteria? Did they recommend just cooking with 'em? Or adding them in primary form?

Edited by hyoomen (09/02/03 09:48 PM)

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1876432 -

I tried to use mushroom powder from species that are known for their antibacterial properties like Trametes versicolor & Shizophyllum commune in my agar. I inoculated with bacteria several agar plates containing different concentrations of powder from both species as well as normal & peroxidated agar control plates. But my first attempt showed no or little effect. Peroxide was much much better then anything else. :crazy:
However I'm going to do some more experiments with it. I have to get less nasty becteria first. :grin: 

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: zeronio]
    #1877849 -

essential oils are always listed with the carrier fluid (be it oil, alcohol or what). you can also order pure oils online. oil of basil with specific genus/species and geographical origin are offered. i did alot of research into this a while back (though for a diff. application) anyway, the pure oil is going to have all the goodies you want. some species of basil oil is about 90-100% 2,5-dimethoxy-3,4-methylenedioxyphenylpropene, depending on the origin. most others of the spices you listed, in essential oil form, are precursors to methoxy analogues of MDMA. that being the phenylpropene-type precursor. perhaps there is where the research should be focussed. i dont know about garlic, but in combination some of these drugs could very well have antibacterial properties. research into the chemical content of these was done based on their flavour (evolutionarily favorable for humans to enjoy the flavor of antibiotics...) so maybe!

i would very much be interested in how this turns out. essential oils are available from 'essential oil' distributors, or the principal chemical constituents can be ordered from a chemical supply house. none of them are legally protected, (except for 3,4-methylenedioxyphenylpropene, or as some would call it, safrole). none of these cost a whole lot, and for quality of research, one would probably want pure samples.

maybe you could even get a government grant to do that research. selective antibiotics is a hot industry. i have done biotech work before, and its really not all that hard. PM me for details/ ideas etc..

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: doktor_alternate]
    #1877853 -

not to say that the goodies would be oils, they could be alkaliods or acids... whatever. anyway... total chemical contents of these are available, thoiugh i have no refs for this.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: doktor_alternate]
    #1877952 -

Thought I'd throw in a couple of cents.

Tenoan - The idea of using garlic in a substrate is a great idea. It is a VERY powerful antibiotic. As the study you reference shows it kills just about every microbe. There are a couple of things that need consideration:

1. Can mycellium grow on a substrate containing Garlic derived antobiotics? If the answer is no then the rest of these questions are a moot point.

2. What are the common contams and would the chemicals in garlic be effective against them? The contams that O gets are rarely bacterial, altough bacterial bloom shows up occasionally. If garlic were effective against some of the more common contams (trich, cobweb, etc..) then this could really be useful.

3. How will you get the anti-biotic contained in the garlic throughout the subsrate. If you are soaking grains would simply adding wholes cloves while they soaked (24hr) be enough and then taking them out before the grain gets PCed? You could get some cheese cloth and then peel and crush X amount of cloves. This would allow you remove the garlic after the soak. It would also be worthwile to see if keeping the garlic with the grain has an effect (ie.. cutting the garlic up fine and then just letting it get cooked and pc'ed with the grain).

I think the idea of essential oils is a good one, but is not needed. Garlic is CHEAP and potent. Just try rubbing a clove of garlic on your hands. Afterwords it will feel just like you rubbed them with alcohol (although it won't smell the same :wink: ) because all the bacteria on your hands has been killed.

The first question the must be answered is:
Will mycellium grow on garlic containing substrate?

O 

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1878044 -

interesting .
i haven't thought of using spices in substrate .
but, i have found that garlic and coffee, are both very effective at keeping insects at bay .

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: deanofmean]
    #1878101 -

Well here are some of my thoughts after thinking on it for a day.

I think the problem can be broken into centrally two hypothesis:

1)Using Garlic (powder or oil) will help to control bacteria in substrates.

2)Using Garlic (powder or oil) in substrates will not too adversily effect spore germination or mycelium growth

As has been pointed out, if the second hypothesis is proven false then the first doesn't really matter. There are two diffrent points in the second hypothesis, first spore germination and then mycelium growth. We can not assume these are the same, so Garlic might effect spore germination but not mycelium growth. I just had a batch of EQ come off a casing and I am going to make several spore syringes. Once those are made I will set up my expirement.

To test the second hypothesis I will just set up 20 or so jars, half of them with garlic (have yet to decide the form) and the other half with no garlic. I will inject half of the garlic and half of the control jars with pure spore innoculate. The other halfs (or I guess quarters at this point) I will do with a liquid mycelium. And then see what will happen. Thats my plan at this point. If garlic doesnt seem to mess things up too much we can move on more vigorously to finding how effective it is and for what.

Thanks for all the input so far!

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: deanofmean]
    #1878131 -

and they both taste good.... :lol:

How about putting some fresh garlic into the water which grains r boiling!...


--------------------

The word truth...... doesn't make any sense..... As if the word sense...... which isn't the truth.........

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: ph_plus]
    #1909242 -

I am rethinking how to do some of my test, but am well on my way. I thought I might add this update as it seems on-topic.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...ience_garlic_dc

Apprently Garlic repels slugs and snails as well.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1909305 -

<---- excited about this find. soon as i can get back into mycology (soon hopefully :smile: ) i will first use garlic or allspice powder in casing layer only to see if mycellium likes it, then in jars as well.

chickass :smile:

edit

preliminary teste might include mixing garlic powder with agar mix at different amounts (.5% up to maybe 5% or so...) and seeing which ones can germinate from multispore innoc, and the same with tissue or mycellium transfer.

i wonder how garlic or allspice would affect the pH level...

Edited by BeppoMarx (09/12/03 11:34 AM)

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: BeppoMarx]
    #1912629 -

yeah what if you just threw a decent amount of garlic powder into your casing layer before you baked it? ima give it a try in the next month or so, but does anyone think that some arlic powder will mess with the ph of my jiffy mix. gotta love the jiffy mix, took me a while to find some but, i hit a motherload of old stock. haha

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: High_On_Magic]
    #2078605 -

So has anyone tried the spice route as a way to prevent bacillus (wet spot) and aspergillus problems in cakes or casings? Would garlic inhibit mycelial growth?

Spices info

Edited by defsound (11/09/03 04:59 PM)

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: defsound]
    #2078624 -

Quote:
... most others of the spices you listed, in essential oil form, are precursors to methoxy analogues of MDMA.



You have no idea what the fark you are talking about.

Edited by f8L (11/06/03 09:07 PM)

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #2418232 -

Thought I might bring this thread back... (just found it and noticed that there are no results posted)

Did anyone have any joy with this?


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: sakura]
    #2418486 -

Here's my wager:

Garlic will prevent mycelial growth on a substrate (or at least severely stunt it).

Here's my suggestion:

Mix garlic powder/oil/whatever in the water used to wet a casing mix prior to casing so the applied casing would be garlic rich. Any decent cultivator doesn't have issues with getting mydelium to fully colonise substrate but we all have issues with casing layers getting trich or cobweb. I'd imagine a garlic enriched casing layer to be impervious to trich and cobweb but to not have any negative impact on fruiting.

It'll be awhile before I can test this theory. anybody on the verge of applying a casing who wants to try this idea?


--------------------
To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: zeronio]
    #2422928 -

So, this is all very interesting. We have done experiments with mushrooms to see which had anti bacterial properties. I dont know what the results are though. ANy ways I thought that mushroom piss or I mean metabolites are antibacterial. So maybe keep a bag of spawn around and let it get old and collect the metabolite and try that? That stuff is used I belive to fight contams isnt it?

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #2457346 -

i was reading last night that ancient mesopotamians would use sesame oil in dressing their wounds to prevent bacterial infections, just thought id throw in..




ddiscored

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: discored]
    #2457470 -


Quote:
ancient mesopotamians would use sesame oil in dressing their wounds to prevent bacterial infections



Maybe this explains these agar additives...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum13&Number=2386026#2386633

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: hyoomen]
    #2459224 -

Is there any concern that oil would be too difficult for the mushrooms to metabolize? If this were the case, then essential oils would be out.

--Aeolus

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #2482707 -

As the originator of the thread I feel I owe some comments on my discoveries. I have had a bit of an absence from the scene for a while (namely that my last big round was a complete disaster, I was careless with making my new spore syringes and got 100% contamination and my micro bags melted in the pressure cooker, so I lost the last of my strain, ect. ect. I will stop whining now :smile: ) but I am back again and have some information on this topic.

First off the antimicrobial properties of these spices are decreased DRASTICALLY by heat. I finally dug up a couple of studies on Biosis that showed this relationship beyond my observations. It?s not something you can add to grain and then pressure cook and hope to have any effect.

Also all the research I could dig up showed that the garlic extract in an oil substrate was by far the most effective form, much better than a water or alcohol extract.

Finally, there seems to be a strong antifungal property to the essential oil and not just antibacterial.

What I have tested is garlic in a WBS substrate, one not heated, one boiled briefly and one pressure cooked at normal. Two of each in each group, one was left sealed the other was opened. The sealed pressure cooked jar did not get any contamination; the opened pressure cooked jar exhibited some seriously nasty contamination. The boiled and unheated versions did show significantly less and slower contamination (the sealed jars actually only had spot contamination even in the unheated) but there certainly was contamination. So it has to be accompanied by pressure cooking, yet pressure cooking seems to destroy the antimicrobial properties.

Now I haven?t had a chance to see if it seriously retards mycelium growth because I am just now getting back up to the point that I have enough spawn to play with. But I think there might be some uses of a garlic oil extract for managing specific outbreaks. Personally I think this stuff is significantly stronger than any hydrogen peroxide but it might harm mycelium. I have a feeling a well established network of mycelium would not be that effected though. The application of all this in my head is a spray bottle or something similar with the extract that could be applied to spot contamination on a casing.

I think the big unanswered question here is how badly it hurts mycelium. I will work on it eventually but I have to re-establish :smile:.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #2484286 -

So... Garlic isn't the best choice for an additive. Don't let your hopes down when one proves inadequate. This thread showed promise. Lets step back in time a bit...

There were more spices listed. The application of which is not limited to jars, the casing layer has been mentioned also. The actual substrate could be "spiced up" helping the spawn run beat the bacteria. Pasteurizing the substrate at much lower temps than pressure cooking could also help the antibacterial agents survive. I really don't think this to be necessary for jar incubation (except perhaps grain transfers or PF-style cake grows), but could prove useful in an agar recipe, substrate, or even a casing mix to prevent mold. These substances could be be added to the dunk water for you cake fans out there, perhaps even supporting the use of a nutrient dunk. It can have antifungal properties and still work in your favor, but not those which stop your species from growing. Even a mixture of 2 weaker spices could prove to be one potent combination.

I would figure essential oils are the way to go, as the actives would probably be much more concentrated and in easily measurable/applicable form. I think I will give some of the more fragrant of the spices a try in substrate or casing mixes. At the very least I would end up with a mint shroom or some other flavor...  :tongue:


--------------------
To give is to live...


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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: ATWAR]
    #2485075 -

Definatly oil extractions no questions about that one, the literature is pervasive on that point.

The big thing is that it seems that all of these effects rely on enzymatic properties or protien structure so that anything (i.e. heat) that denatures said protiens will destroy most of the antimicrobial function. So any use has to be after any massive exposure to heat.

The big unanswered question here is the effect on the mushroom mycelium. If someone is paying attention and has some spawn to spare if we could get this answered it could either close out the idea or really get it started. If there is not significant effect on established mycelium growth then I can think of all kinds of uses. But until I can test it (or one of you :smile: ) I offer caution.

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #2487788 -

I could easily test spices againsed mycelium growth, but I also imagine that certain species would be greater affected by the active ingredients than others.

I would also like to know if any spices would be effective againsed the common molds that contaminate our casings...


--------------------
To give is to live...


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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #2487850 -

In a previous post I mentioned a patent where they used a cellulose-free substrate to grow shiitake?s and other mushrooms with garlic as an antibacterial agent.

I?m currently testing a slightly modified version of this method with pleurotus and shiitake.

-feb

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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #2523540 -

to test this...grow some molds/fecal coliform, etc on agar in petri dish. add the herbs on top, BEFORE the mold grows ( to see if it PREVENTS growth)
and also add it on top of another dish AFTER the mold grows (to see if it will KILL the growth)


--------------------

(and no, that's not me in the avatar)
Yahoo! Pacific Northwest Mycology Group

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