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OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates?
    #1875254 - 09/02/03 08:41 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I ran across a whole series of articals addressing the issue of human propensity for spicey foods. Most of the articals are in the realm of evolution and primarly evolutionary psychology but I couldn't help but wonder about there application in the realm of mycology.

The primary finding was that common spices had a very pronounced antimicrobial effect. At first this doesnt sound that promising because fungi might be too adversly effected but most of the findings seemed to show that spices had a much greater effect on bacteria than fungi. Here is a quote from one paper:

"Inhibition of bacteria is especially important because they are more common in outbreaks of food-borne diseases and food poisoning than are fungi. Of the 30 spices for which information was available, all inhibited or killed at least one-quarter of the bacterial species on which they were tested, and half the spices inhibited or killed three-quarters of these bacteria. The four most potent spices--garlic, onion, allspice and oregano--killed every bacterial species tested. Most of the bacteria that were tested are widely distributed and are frequently implicated in food-borne illness."

"Bacteria have been more commonly incriminated in food poisoning and foodborne disease outbreaks than yeasts and fungi (e.g., Varnam and Evans 1991; Todd 1994, 1996)."

"We obtained information on the antibacterial properties of 30 spices (Appendix A). All of them (100%) inhibit some species of bacteria, 24 (80%) inhibit [is greater than or equal to] 50%, 15 (50%) inhibit [is greater than or equal to] 75%, and 4 (13%) inhibit 100% (Figure 6). The average spice inhibits 67% (+23%) of bacteria. Garlic, onion, allspice and oregano inhibit every bacterium they have been tested on; at the other extreme, lemon and lime juice inhibit only 24% of bacteria. "


So I was thinking these spices might be a common, cheap and easy tool for controling or killing bacterial infections. I was wondering what thoughts you guys might have?

I am interested in testing this further, but had some questions. What are the most common types of bacteria one encounters in substrates such as grain? One of the articals included an extensive Appendix with a list of spices and the type of bacteria they were found to inhibit or kill.

Also what type of grain or other substrate is MOST subsebtable to bacteria infection in your expirence? If I want to play with this I want one that has a fairly high propensity for nasty bacteria growth. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


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OfflineRaadt
nicht

Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 2,104
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875296 - 09/02/03 09:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

nice job! maybe we can figure out something to avoid those bacterial blooms we get now and then. If garlic can fuckup some vampires :wink: maybe we can use it.

I'm going to be trying this.


--------------------
Raadt

-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--


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OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Raadt]
    #1875300 - 09/02/03 09:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The main spices were garlic, onion, allspice and oregano. They had the most inhibitory effect. But if there is an interest I will go ahead and post the full list of spices and bacteria they effect.


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875336 - 09/02/03 09:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm interested ;p


--------------------
Raadt

-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--


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OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Raadt]
    #1875423 - 09/02/03 09:39 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I had trouble formating for a post, and it was too big anyway for casual inspection so I placed it on geocities.

http://www.geocities.com/taoshroom/appendix.htm

Garlic looks like the best shot too me. It inhibits the most bacteria and seems to have been tested on some common problematic ones like Bacillus and Pseudomonas.

I am going to set up and expirement with grains, do some control jars and then some with garlic see what effect I can document. I am also going to try and see what kind of effect if any it has on spore germination and mycelium development. Once I get things underway I will post my procedure/pictures and data.


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OfflineVertigo
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Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Panhandle
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875679 - 09/02/03 10:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What en excellent find. Props to you. I have a question: What form were the spices in?
i.e. fresh and whole?; minced; extract,oil; dried
Maybe it will say in your link.


--------------------
"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."


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OfflineVertigo
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Vertigo]
    #1875693 - 09/02/03 10:49 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

No it doesn't. Could you provide the exact link or describe how the spices were used?


--------------------
"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."


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OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Vertigo]
    #1875791 - 09/02/03 11:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The main articles I was looking at were meta-studies with huge bibliographies. From what I can tell most studies used either an extract or a powdered form. It doesnt appear that fresh was ever really used.

Garlic is the main one that is peaking my interest. Several studies I looked up seem to show that Garlic Powder(GP) and Garlic Oil (GO) both have the nessicary antibacterial ingrediants.


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OfflineVertigo
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875864 - 09/02/03 11:28 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

It would be important to find out garlic's anti-fungal properties.
This could be a major break through.


--------------------
"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."


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OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: Vertigo]
    #1875886 - 09/02/03 11:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Working on setting up an expirement now, going to get some garlic oil and garlic powder and try it both on control jars and then on some that I actually innoculate and see if the garlic inhibits mycelium growth as well.


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OfflineVertigo
Mycovoire
Registered: 03/05/03
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875894 - 09/02/03 11:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Cool PM med if this thread gets lost.


--------------------
"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."


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Invisiblehyoomen
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Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 3
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1875918 - 09/02/03 11:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Just a suggestion, but it seems like essential oil would be the best (if not the more expensive) form of each substance to make use of. That having been said, a couple of different methods could be used to test this. One procedure I can come up with would entail pre-soaking the grains with the essential oil, but it seems likely that a fair amount of the anti-bacterial effects would be lost in the sterilisation/PC step. Would you be trying to sterilise during the trials or would you rather just let it go without sterility to see if the various substances can be astoundingly successful? Perhaps another method would be to sterilise and then spritz a fine spray of the essential oil into the jars during the innoculation phase.

Alternatively, it would be interesting to insert the substances into or on to the final substrate during the spawning stage. Mix the herbs or essential oils of the herbs at the same time that you mix the grain spawn into the final substrate (or when you're ready to case).

Possible obstacles: many essential oils are alcohol-based; essential oils often have greatly different characteristics than their whole counterpart -- hence, your use of powder might be more on target; determining the likelihood of having a contamination to 'beat out' without purposely adding the contamination. Perhaps it would be best to test specific herbs/spices against the most prevalent contaminants and then, after determining which were most effective, working them into the process of actually growing the mushrooms. Just have to make sure that it's going to work AGAINST the bacteria and FOR the mushroom.

Happy experimenting. Keep us updated.

BTW, do the articles talk much about how those substances were added to the food to retard bacteria? Did they recommend just cooking with 'em? Or adding them in primary form?


Edited by hyoomen (09/02/03 11:48 PM)


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Offlinezeronio
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1876432 - 09/03/03 03:31 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I tried to use mushroom powder from species that are known for their antibacterial properties like Trametes versicolor & Shizophyllum commune in my agar. I inoculated with bacteria several agar plates containing different concentrations of powder from both species as well as normal & peroxidated agar control plates. But my first attempt showed no or little effect. Peroxide was much much better then anything else. :crazy:
However I'm going to do some more experiments with it. I have to get less nasty becteria first. :grin: 


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Invisibledoktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: zeronio]
    #1877849 - 09/03/03 04:34 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

essential oils are always listed with the carrier fluid (be it oil, alcohol or what). you can also order pure oils online. oil of basil with specific genus/species and geographical origin are offered. i did alot of research into this a while back (though for a diff. application) anyway, the pure oil is going to have all the goodies you want. some species of basil oil is about 90-100% 2,5-dimethoxy-3,4-methylenedioxyphenylpropene, depending on the origin. most others of the spices you listed, in essential oil form, are precursors to methoxy analogues of MDMA. that being the phenylpropene-type precursor. perhaps there is where the research should be focussed. i dont know about garlic, but in combination some of these drugs could very well have antibacterial properties. research into the chemical content of these was done based on their flavour (evolutionarily favorable for humans to enjoy the flavor of antibiotics...) so maybe!

i would very much be interested in how this turns out. essential oils are available from 'essential oil' distributors, or the principal chemical constituents can be ordered from a chemical supply house. none of them are legally protected, (except for 3,4-methylenedioxyphenylpropene, or as some would call it, safrole). none of these cost a whole lot, and for quality of research, one would probably want pure samples.

maybe you could even get a government grant to do that research. selective antibiotics is a hot industry. i have done biotech work before, and its really not all that hard. PM me for details/ ideas etc..


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Invisibledoktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: doktor_alternate]
    #1877853 - 09/03/03 04:36 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

not to say that the goodies would be oils, they could be alkaliods or acids... whatever. anyway... total chemical contents of these are available, thoiugh i have no refs for this.


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OfflineOtto
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 33
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: doktor_alternate]
    #1877952 - 09/03/03 05:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Thought I'd throw in a couple of cents.

Tenoan - The idea of using garlic in a substrate is a great idea. It is a VERY powerful antibiotic. As the study you reference shows it kills just about every microbe. There are a couple of things that need consideration:

1. Can mycellium grow on a substrate containing Garlic derived antobiotics? If the answer is no then the rest of these questions are a moot point.

2. What are the common contams and would the chemicals in garlic be effective against them? The contams that O gets are rarely bacterial, altough bacterial bloom shows up occasionally. If garlic were effective against some of the more common contams (trich, cobweb, etc..) then this could really be useful.

3. How will you get the anti-biotic contained in the garlic throughout the subsrate. If you are soaking grains would simply adding wholes cloves while they soaked (24hr) be enough and then taking them out before the grain gets PCed? You could get some cheese cloth and then peel and crush X amount of cloves. This would allow you remove the garlic after the soak. It would also be worthwile to see if keeping the garlic with the grain has an effect (ie.. cutting the garlic up fine and then just letting it get cooked and pc'ed with the grain).

I think the idea of essential oils is a good one, but is not needed. Garlic is CHEAP and potent. Just try rubbing a clove of garlic on your hands. Afterwords it will feel just like you rubbed them with alcohol (although it won't smell the same :wink: ) because all the bacteria on your hands has been killed.

The first question the must be answered is:
Will mycellium grow on garlic containing substrate?



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Invisibledeanofmean
mycophagous

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 2,017
Loc: PNW
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: TaoinShrrom]
    #1878044 - 09/03/03 05:32 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

interesting .
i haven't thought of using spices in substrate .
but, i have found that garlic and coffee, are both very effective at keeping insects at bay .


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OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: deanofmean]
    #1878101 - 09/03/03 05:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Well here are some of my thoughts after thinking on it for a day.

I think the problem can be broken into centrally two hypothesis:

1)Using Garlic (powder or oil) will help to control bacteria in substrates.

2)Using Garlic (powder or oil) in substrates will not too adversily effect spore germination or mycelium growth

As has been pointed out, if the second hypothesis is proven false then the first doesn't really matter. There are two diffrent points in the second hypothesis, first spore germination and then mycelium growth. We can not assume these are the same, so Garlic might effect spore germination but not mycelium growth. I just had a batch of EQ come off a casing and I am going to make several spore syringes. Once those are made I will set up my expirement.

To test the second hypothesis I will just set up 20 or so jars, half of them with garlic (have yet to decide the form) and the other half with no garlic. I will inject half of the garlic and half of the control jars with pure spore innoculate. The other halfs (or I guess quarters at this point) I will do with a liquid mycelium. And then see what will happen. Thats my plan at this point. If garlic doesnt seem to mess things up too much we can move on more vigorously to finding how effective it is and for what.

Thanks for all the input so far!


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Invisibleph_plus
Malkawian

Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 556
Loc: Constantinople
Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: deanofmean]
    #1878131 - 09/03/03 05:56 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

and they both taste good.... :lol:

How about putting some fresh garlic into the water which grains r boiling!...


--------------------

The word truth...... doesn't make any sense..... As if the word sense...... which isn't the truth.........


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OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
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Re: Use of spices to inhibit bacterial growth in substrates? [Re: ph_plus]
    #1909242 - 09/12/03 12:51 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I am rethinking how to do some of my test, but am well on my way. I thought I might add this update as it seems on-topic.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...ience_garlic_dc

Apprently Garlic repels slugs and snails as well.


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