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Offlineeve69
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The pursuit of a waste of knowledge * 2
    #18750282 - 08/24/13 06:18 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i don't blame people for preparing a deep fantasy to escape to - lord knows we all need an escape - but if someone is not crazy then at some point they have to consider their pursuit and wonder if they haven't spent enough time on methods with no payoff

it's not for me to judge - but i used to hang out with an eastern guru who had been stranded and who came from nepal - i got to spend about five years with him - the majority of which was at various bars - he would curse me out and say the most horrific things - i learned first hand that behind the facade people are no different

his students thought he was full of siddhis and wonderful qualities - only i knew he was just like you or me - full of shit

his system hadn't worked to make him a gentle compassionate person - he was a total dick - and my point is - the path hadn't worked for him - so how could it ever work for another

i consider myself totally fortunate because he burned up my aspirations and set me free from striving after bullshit goals of trying to change my personality traits into something inhuman and artificial

that's why i'm an asshole and cynical and don't put up with a bunch of woowoo bullshit

i was lucky

i read here alot of unlucky spiritual aspirants who haven't a real clue - who try anything to come to some fantasy realization about life which is anything but the truth

the truth is - eat, sleep, learn, love, shit, fuck, have kids, not meet goals, feel like a failure, die

i belonged to a cult for some ten years before that and i can't tell you how many vegetarians died from cancer - how many people gave up everything to their guru and died starving - and i could go on

i am trying to prevent suffering from this diatribe - some think my goal here is to criticize and piss people off - no - that's just how it looks - my goal is to prevent needless suffering

define your goal before you give your soul


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InvisiblePsilopsychosis
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: eve69]
    #18750543 - 08/24/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Just because that last few paths turned out to full of posion ivy doesn't mean you should stop walking in the forest.
Wear long pants, learn what the plant looks like and try a new path.
What else can you do?
Turn around and live in the city and never go to the forest ever again?

What type of life is that?
Never give up.
Keep searching for that righteous, cool path.

Maybe you should look less for a guru and look for direction from your own heart/brain.


Edited by Psilopsychosis (08/24/13 08:40 AM)


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OfflineFryer Mike
Lost in the fourth dimension.


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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: Psilopsychosis]
    #18751193 - 08/24/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with Psilopsychosis. Your pessimistic views may be true in your experience, but it is quite ignorant to assume that you are completely right about them.


--------------------
DON'T READ THIS!


Any information/ pictures/ text that implies I grow or use illegal substances is false and/ or for entertainment purposes. Nothing I say or submit to this forum or to any other should be taken literally.

I am become death, destroyer of worlds.

Fryer Mike


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: eve69]
    #18751342 - 08/24/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
the truth is - eat, sleep, learn, love, shit, fuck, have kids, not meet goals, feel like a failure, die




life's a bitch and then you die
so fuck the world and let's get high

:rockon:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: deCypher]
    #18752957 - 08/24/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


i am trying to prevent suffering from this diatribe - some think my goal here is to criticize and piss people off - no - that's just how it looks - my goal is to prevent needless suffering




You will never fix human negativity with more negativity.  You are setting yourself up as a guru, the anti-guru variety of guru but that is still a guru.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: Deviate]
    #18752971 - 08/24/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

In the end we can only guide ourselves.  It's best to not get too attached to fixing the world.  It's a fools errand. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMahananda


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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: eve69]
    #18753713 - 08/25/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The unfortunate truth is that many many people who set out to guide others either have questionable motives at the outset or eventually prove unworthy of the trust their students place in them.  Sexual and financial improprieties, and abuses of control, are typical pitfalls, but they come in many varieties.  For that reason, it's very important to scrutinize such figures very closely, all the more so when their charisma is compelling and their methods efficacious.

I'm very sorry that you had what seems to have been an encounter with such a person, even if you weren't harmed in the direct and typical way.  Even for a non-student, disillusionment is a terrible scar to bear.  I've learned my own lessons in this area the hard way, and more than once, so I know very well how it feels.

Having said that, it's wrong to think that escapism is the implicit goal for aspirants.  For me, and this certainly sets me below the many seekers who start from a position of deep altruism, it was about knowledge: attempting to achieve an understanding of the deep questions of life. What does it all mean, and why are we here?  Philosophy remains an intellectual joy to me, but was ultimately inconclusive and unsatisfactory in that regard, like reading about a cake instead of eating one.  And I did find knowledge, of a sort, though it wasn't what I expected, nor did I find it in the way I expected.

Did that knowledge solve all my worldly problems?  No, not by a long way.  In fact, I'd say that insight and happiness are very different categories.  They're related, because (in my case at least), it was necessary to find some measure of peace of mind before whatever insight I found could become apparent.  And that involved doing things that ultimately made me happier: gaining a bit of self control, diminishing my self centeredness, and so on. 

But can people live happier lives through what might loosely be called spiritual practices?  In my experience the answer is emphatically yes.

I hope that you find happiness in all that you do, whether by the style of living you describe or otherwise; and if by chance there's some part of you, now or later, that would like to believe there's even more to be experienced than what those things encompass, hold out hope, because there is.


--------------------
Come, come, whoever you are.
Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter
Ours is not a caravan of despair.
Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times,
Come, yet again, come, come


Edited by Mahananda (08/25/13 01:35 AM)


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: eve69]
    #18753859 - 08/25/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I feel that you are absolutely right and have obtained sufficient depth of being. What ever a person does it has the potential to get real. A man in command of a car, house, job and family has everything lined up for completeness.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: Icelander]
    #18753928 - 08/25/13 02:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
In the end we can only guide ourselves.  It's best to not get too attached to fixing the world.  It's a fools errand. :satansmoking:




Was that in response to me? If so, I totally agree. Ramana Maharshi said trying to reform the world is like trying to pave the whole world with leather to make it easier to walk on. Its much easier to wear shoes.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: Deviate]
    #18754066 - 08/25/13 04:34 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

This book is a must read, and explains how the guru system works, I highly recommend it though I dont agree with their critique of Goddess religion or their conclusion at end of book. But it is rare that you agree with ALL someone says.

it is called The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power

Summarized, comparing mono-theism with the guru system of India. In the 'God' trip you have the deity at the top of ONE hierarchical pyramid. In the East however you have many little hierachical pyramids with a GURU at the top of each one. And once this is established these --mostly--old dudes with beards can do what ever they want and their gullible followers will make excuses for it.

I have seen this in videos about cults. it is FRIGHTENING to see how some people can be totally taken over. You can see it in their eyes and, emotions, and body language.

Does this mean we all must become vitriolic septic atheistic cynical 'sceptics'...?

No. It means that we should respect our unique selves, and understand that nature is intelligent and vitally alive and nurture a relationship with Her (or it if you prefer) and thus with other species, and each other. WE can learn through psychedelics fungi, plants, and substances to heal ourselves and support others in their healing. We do not have to look at another as superior, or expect another to see us that way.

another good expose of gurus is Stripping the Gurus (there's a better link than this which is more accessible but cannot find it at the moment)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: zzripz]
    #18754180 - 08/25/13 06:28 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks everybody for exceptional insights and well written responses. I am not very good at the quote/response thing but I want you to know I am considering each response, and each has merit.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: eve69]
    #18754257 - 08/25/13 07:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Just hit the quote (on whoever you are quoting) button instead of reply. Very simple.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: Icelander]
    #18754517 - 08/25/13 09:16 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i know that but the multi quote thing takes real thought and i have burned all that up


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: eve69]
    #18754535 - 08/25/13 09:21 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It works the same way as a single quote. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: zzripz]
    #18755049 - 08/25/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
This book is a must read, and explains how the guru system works, I highly recommend it though I dont agree with their critique of Goddess religion or their conclusion at end of book. But it is rare that you agree with ALL someone says.

it is called The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power

Summarized, comparing mono-theism with the guru system of India. In the 'God' trip you have the deity at the top of ONE hierarchical pyramid. In the East however you have many little hierachical pyramids with a GURU at the top of each one. And once this is established these --mostly--old dudes with beards can do what ever they want and their gullible followers will make excuses for it.

I have seen this in videos about cults. it is FRIGHTENING to see how some people can be totally taken over. You can see it in their eyes and, emotions, and body language.

Does this mean we all must become vitriolic septic atheistic cynical 'sceptics'...?

No. It means that we should respect our unique selves, and understand that nature is intelligent and vitally alive and nurture a relationship with Her (or it if you prefer) and thus with other species, and each other. WE can learn through psychedelics fungi, plants, and substances to heal ourselves and support others in their healing. We do not have to look at another as superior, or expect another to see us that way.

another good expose of gurus is Stripping the Gurus (there's a better link than this which is more accessible but cannot find it at the moment)




I have read stripping the gurus and I didnt always understand the point. Take the Ram Das chapter for example. It offers a rather different account of his life than you would get from pro ram das sources. But its not like it contains any truly shocking revelations. Ram Das is just a man like you or me, he never claimed to be enlightened to my knowledge and hence why would you expect him to be perfect? I wouldnt say I am a HUGE fan of ram das but ive read be here and now and listened to some lectures he has given and I felt like I picked up a few good pieces of wisdom from him. So whats the problem? Perhaps some people have set their expecations too high?

Of couse many false gurus has arisen. This is rather like the false prophets we've had in the west that the Lord Jesus warned us about. That doesnt mean all gurus are bad though, really it is up to us to take responsibility for ourselves and who to follow. It sounds like you are preaching something similar to what Tim Leary believed, use psychemegelic drugs to circumvent the guru/chela relationship. It works alright in terms of providing the necessary revelations but they're not permamnent/ So what is one to do?  Psychedelic have their own risks that go along with using them for spiritual purposes as well. I caused myself a serious kundalani problem back whenI turned 20 through unbalanced use of meditation techniques coupled with massively unbalanced drug abuse.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that if you find a decent guru, especially if he/she is enlightened, it could be immensely beneficial to one's own path. Of course you dont need to have a physical guru though. Ramana maharshi would say to peple "gugu is within"  SO what we really need to do is find that inner guru.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: Deviate]
    #18755654 - 08/25/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

there's no word of jesus saying there will be false prophets - you're confusing your books and verses


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: eve69]
    #18757955 - 08/26/13 12:07 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Nicely stated! :thumbup: I appreciate your candor. Some teachers are what Ram Dass called "shills for God," but for God's sake, don't give up your hard-earned money and property to another human being. That is not self-sacrifice, that is masochistic self-deprecation. No human being is more important than any other except in the social convention sense. Some guy outside the supermarket asked me for a dollar, shaking a handful of loose coins. I said, "Hey, I just lost my job," before going into the store. He was not blind, crippled, or infirm. He was less than half my age. Fuck 'em! If people want to gibe a Rajneesh 94 Rolls Royces, it's more power (literally) to him. The contributors are pathological in a different way than Rajneesh/Osho was. Any truth that he spouted was not authored by him. It's good that he's dead, he caused damage to many people. Any good that people attribute to him, for example, is misplaced.

Cults are evil as you have discovered. The truth is to be discovered, Realized (made real), by each one of us. I was visited by an acquaintance yesterday morning, w/o prior phone call. He lives 30 miles away and I have tried to avoid him now for some years. He was in the neighborhood, but I was still sleeping because I wasn't feeling well from the Herpes zoster vaccination I took. While talking to him in my front porch, a mature lizard ran out and tried to attack/eat a baby lizard. I yelled at the lizard "Don't you eat that baby!" and it responded to the sound of my voice and took off. I knelt down while chatting small talk, extended my finger to the tiny baby lizard, and he climbed onto my index finger's first digit. To this guy, who is as square as they come, who can't lose control (a very diminutive man), I've never seen inebriated and he once sabotaged an Ecstasy trip by eating a huge meat dinner first, who once tried a measly 2.0 gms of shrooms and never did it again - looked amazed when Ithe lizard climbed on my finger. No big deal, I know, but to people with 'monkey-mind,' with NO spirituality (we gave him and his wife The Power of Now, and he couldn't get past the first few pages), it must have looked equivalent to St. francis taming his dire wolf!

We don't have to do much to improve ourselves, we simply have to shut up, be still, stop craving existence through the untoward desires of our egoic minds. We do not have to live in some samadhi full time, as Buddha realized, and despite the existence of gurus like Neem Karolie Baba, we do not have to demonstrate siddhis. We might be given opportunities to manifest them, but our egos are not the one in charge of those demonstrations, and if we aren't given the opportunities it doesn't matter to our our Enlightenment. That is between us and the Sky.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineeve69
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Re: The pursuit of a waste of knowledge [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18758615 - 08/26/13 06:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you for your posts. You are well thought and spoken. 

I didn't mean to discourage people from a spiritual life or path, but I did in fact mean to discourage people not from cults or religions or teachers exactly but from relinquishing their own will and desires for some lofty spiritual goal which is never going to come. 

Best teaching I have ever encountered is Dzogchen. Worst guru I ever met was 'Dzogchen master.'  There's a somewhat infamous Dzogchen teaching to 'get the teaching and run like hell.' 

Essence of Dzogchen is 'this is  it.'  Work with this right now. The bliss, the pain, the joy the sorrow. Do not seek to transform them. The very act of seeking changes things from what they are into what they were never meant to be.

In spiritual systems people have been beaten, abused and baffled with bullshit for all of human history. It's so easy to - instead of spiritually balancing the books, to instead add a few dollars here and a few sense here - to cook the books.


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