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Lord_McLovin
mad scientist on shrooms



Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 3,071
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: OldHam]
#18754334 - 08/25/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
OldHam said: Again, don't you have anything better to do than brag online? 
Well, I was really high and I like proving stuff.
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OldHam


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 1,566
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: Lord_McLovin]
#18754364 - 08/25/13 08:05 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Whatever makes ya happy. Sorry for coming off as an ass.
-------------------- The Shallows, Chapter 7, Nicholas Carr
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TwinEclipse
Psychedelic Alchemist


Registered: 07/06/13
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: OldHam]
#18754384 - 08/25/13 08:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I believe it's both.
You're either blessed with optimum genetics, or determined in obtaining knowledge.
The first is given, and the second must be developed through continual effort and incentive.
-------------------- My purpose: to love, to share, and to experience....all while conforming to my psychedelic experiences.
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KingKnowledge
Around



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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: zzripz]
#18754451 - 08/25/13 08:49 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: look out your window now--unless your already outside in natural surroundings. THAT is Intelligence. Intelligence which at its core is love is the very source of you and all reality. it is not something in-you-head, or my head. it is both inner and outer.
There is this curious version of 'intelligence' be a western modern mindset which seems to think it has to do with IQ tests, and stats, and all that so-called 'rationality'. And they often, people who think of themselves as superior in intelligence in such areas are THE most vile mechanical inhuman unintelligent morons that ever disgraced the living universe!
Nice explanation!
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: OldHam]
#18757598 - 08/25/13 10:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
OldHam said: If I was 'in my Master's in theoretical physics in one of the most renowned universities for the topic on the globe' I sincerely doubt I'd be piddling around here. No offense, to you or anyone here. It's the truth though...
Your "truth" is stupid. 
PS
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (08/26/13 10:49 AM)
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Hammburgler
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: Lord_McLovin]
#18758423 - 08/26/13 03:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
X_{\left[ f,g \right]} \llcorner \omega (X_h)= \left[ \left[ f,g \right], h \right] = \left[ g , \left[ h,f \right] \right] + \left[ f , \left[ g,h \right] \right] = X_g \left( X_h (f) \right) + X_f \left( X_g (h) \right) = X_f \left( X_g (h) \right) - X_g \left( X_h (f) \right) = \left[ X_f , X_g \right](h)
X \llcorner \omega + d f = 0
I just put that code in with my xbox controller and it gave me infinite lives!
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ressa69
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Registered: 07/15/13
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: testko]
#18760461 - 08/26/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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You are essentially asking about the nature of free will.
It is very hard to rationally argue that free will exists, in either a religious or scientific context. Even if one argues that everything that happens as the result of random occurrence, then it is equally impossible to assign moral responsibility for one's actions, or in this case, someone's intelligence as a result of "genes" and "experience".
Despite any rational argument we can present, people cannot help but behave on the pretense that free will exists. If your decisions were not your own, how could I feel angry at you? how could I feel gratitude? These feelings are not voluntary, they are compulsions and they are involuntary.
On the other hand, if you choose to believe in your own, predisposed superiority, then you have no justification to feel that way. Since you had no control over the genes that you inherited, it is not by your own doing that you are intelligent. If you are to say the opposite, then you are admitting that free will does exist and that it was by your own hard work that you are "more intelligent" and thus, we arrive at the conclusion that everyone has an equal capacity for intelligence and that it is by our own will that we become clever people.
Either way, there is no room to be an asshole.
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druqs
ALKALOIDOHOLIC


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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: testko]
#18760519 - 08/26/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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depends on your definition of intelligence.
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TwinEclipse
Psychedelic Alchemist


Registered: 07/06/13
Posts: 1,499
Loc: NGC1097
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: druqs]
#18760933 - 08/26/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Intelligence is part of human perception.
Humans developed language by attaching meaning to the signs in reality. The more previous experiences you have to connect to the 2 billion bits of information you medial prefrontal cortex can select, the 'more intelligent' you are.
ALL living, thinking organisms started from a blank slate of understanding the external environment.
Classes in school, flight/fight experiences and emotional moments all contribute to the speed and intensity of being able to process and organize information for your mind to be able to understand it. Similarly, they are all EXPERIENCES.
Animals communicate through signs. People communicate through symbols.
-------------------- My purpose: to love, to share, and to experience....all while conforming to my psychedelic experiences.
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ressa69
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: TwinEclipse]
#18761070 - 08/26/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
TwinEclipse said: Intelligence is part of human perception.
Humans developed language by attaching meaning to the signs in reality. The more previous experiences you have to connect to the 2 billion bits of information you medial prefrontal cortex can select, the 'more intelligent' you are.
ALL living, thinking organisms started from a blank slate of understanding the external environment.
Classes in school, flight/fight experiences and emotional moments all contribute to the speed and intensity of being able to process and organize information for your mind to be able to understand it. Similarly, they are all EXPERIENCES.
Animals communicate through signs. People communicate through symbols.
Good points, but while your approach is a material one (i.e. one that defines things through science) you fail to create a coherent truth within your explaination.
Firstly, When you say "EXPERIENCES", I assume that you are saying that intelligence is relative. By making a definitive statement that all things are relative, your argument is self defeating. So then you must define what "experience" is. You do not need to abandon a sense of subjectivity; but this must be distinct from that which is relative.
Second, the term "blank slate" is outdated. If the human mind, or even the animal mind was a blank slate, then how could we have respiration after someone loses higher brain funtion? heartbeats happen without any brain at all. How could a honey bee make a highly structured honey comb without a spinal cord and a only few hundred thousand brain cells? shit, we can even stimulate an orgasm in a dead body.
Thirdly, you are on to something with using language as a means to define intelligence, because after all, we have assigned and agreed upon a meaning for it. Yes, we are arguing what that entails, but we have some basic agreement for what it means. That in itself is worth pondering.
I am not certain what you mean by symbols vs. signs. This sounds like jargon. Humans ARE animals, so that distinction is out. Perhaps you mean to refer to the associative nature of human memory? When you think of the word "Hot", you may associate that perhaps with "fire", "buffalo sauce", or "Summer". And as you say, this depends upon the subjective experience of the individual.
Edited by ressa69 (08/26/13 07:29 PM)
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TwinEclipse
Psychedelic Alchemist


Registered: 07/06/13
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: ressa69]
#18761512 - 08/26/13 09:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nice assessment. I think I may have misused my use of diction. Writing and putting thoughts in sentences aren't my strongest skill.
First, I'm referring to overall intelligence, not specific, factual intelligence. There are various articles in psychology 101 that describe differeny types of intelligence. There are also plenty of theories of intelligence, which either contradict or overlap one another. The idea of intelligence is merely so, perception.
Next, autonomic functions aren't part of conscious intelligence, in my opinion. It's not like you get to PREVIOUSLY experience the first breath of air, the first heart beat, first neuron relay, and so on. It's just part of our inherited, genetic make-up.
I used blank slate because I felt that it best explained what I was talking about. Obviously, you took it from the old, epistemology version of it. In my head, I thought of blank slate as coming into the presemt world with no previous recollection of the past.
Now, on to experience. I define experience as: Learning about present situations. Being aware of new surroundings and its obstacles. Practice in functioning to the external environment. Involvement between the external world and the internal mind. Observations. Education. Emotions. Thoughts. Dreams. Anything that involves a thinking mind and it's ability to perceive the world.
About what I tried to explain about signs vs. symbols....
Animals can't think 'about' of objects, but they can think 'of' them. Better said...they can't think...oh today I don't want to eat seeds. I will eat worms instead. Instead, they simply react to their surrounding environment as it changes. No thoughts about what an object means to them. Keep in mind that I believe every organism is intelligent in its own way. Heck, species of organisms go through many trials of life v. Death, and must learn to adapt to the environment through experience. Again, I believe species became intelligent through previous experiences. There are theories that dogs became domesticated through the 1000's of generations of being exposed to humans just thought you should know.
Anyway, humans think differently. When a sign comes up(like hearing words, seeing a jaguar, getting a text from your significant other, etc) you not only react, but you FEEL also. This is because the mind works like a search engine. A stimulus comes in, and the brain compares the stimulus to past experiences.
Think of it this way. Suppose you buy ecstasy for the first time. Turns out its 2-CE. But you didn't know it was. 2nd time, 3 months later, you buy ecstasy and it's the REAL DEAL! But in your mind, you would be like, this isn't ecstasy. It feels different. I'm not hallucinating. Your mind compared present roll with past trip, which you thought was a roll. Nothing like getting you confused with an example
When you begin the long thought chain reaction of thinking ABOUT current experiences, you are using the symbols from past experiences, which attain PERSONAL MEANING.
Next, I will use some logical reasoning. Since intelligence doesn't exist in reality(can't see it/touch it), it must be a construct of human thought.
Protozoa became intelligent through the minuscule probability of creating genetic replication. Organisms became intelligent through generations of death and survival. People became intelligent by attaching meaning through grunts, yells, etc.
Earth(a sign) can't be intelligent, because it doesn't think. It just is. however, when you hear the word Earth...you may think, home, destruction, life, paradise...meanings. You don't just think of the object, you think about it. That's what I meant by sign v. Symbol
Look up the definition of 'of' and 'about'...some say it's the same, some say it isn't. I define 'of' as awareness regarding something. I define about as selected information regarding something. Like language, one defines things differently than another.
In the end, I believe if you want to become more intelligent overall, you must expose yourself to many challenges and obstacles. Refrain from repetitive routines...keep your 'self' mentally stimulated...books and music for the left side and plenty of math for the right. I love school for this reason
Edited by TwinEclipse (08/26/13 09:41 PM)
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ressa69
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: TwinEclipse]
#18765784 - 08/27/13 08:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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You have done a better job of articulating your thoughts, but there are still inconsistencies.
When you say "overall intelligence", it is too ambiguous. You are speaking more jargonese. You cannot express something that is as you describe it "personal" and assume I know exactly what you mean by it. I sense that you are distinguishing between semantic memory and working memory. Use these terms because they are backed by volumes of research to which objective data is ascribed.
Do not ever site psych 101 in an arguement. They still teach Freud and Maslow. Really, everything in psych 101 is bullshit. It's a history class.
Autonomic functions are the ONLY part of perception and hence by your logic the only part of intelligence. Sentience arises through the transduction of action potentials, depolarizing rods and cones, corpuscles and tympanic membranes. Or a lack thereof. You cannot separate the mind and the body and claim to study chemistry. It's like a Christian who doesn't love Jesus.
Likewise, you define experience as things solely in the "external world". This is baffling, given that you are on a forum dedicated to experiences that arise from internal circumstance. Superficially at least, visions and hallucinations are NOT part of the observable world.
You are just plain wrong that animals do not have associative memory or "feel" things. There are numerous behavioral tests for rodents that model Depression, Anxiety, Fear, and Spatial Memory. If you are correct, then you have out smarted 1000 Phd's in the field of neuroscience.
Your "dilemma" with the ecstasy vs. 2C-E is the manifestation of your misunderstanding of language. This parable is not concerned with the nature of reality or truth, but the nature of language. If the person taking 2C-E read a verbal description of the effects of MDMA, then he would not for a second be convinced that is the chemical he bought. The name for "vegetable" is different in Spanish and English, however, the name is truth for each because of the way that name is associated relative to other things in that language. Functionally, they serve the same purpose. It is funtion that we need to be concerned with.
You keep saying "personal meaning", but as I already showed you, saying definitively that something is relative is a paradox and self-defeating.
Think of "personal meaning" as though each one of us were a stationary videocamera placed in different parts of a room. Were you to view each of these films, you may conclude that those devices were different, or that perhaps they were on opposite sides of the earth. In reality, they were just two views of the same room. The confound here is the Observer.
Finally, your anthrocentric view of evolution is false. Evolution is NOT the march to biological perfection, complexity, and especially not intelligence. The only constancy in evolution is change. When you measure selective pressure, the population of a species, gene flow, ect; those values have changed the moment approaching infinity since you made your observation.
^_________________________^
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Lord_McLovin
mad scientist on shrooms



Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 3,071
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: ressa69]
#18769281 - 08/28/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Evolution is NOT the march to biological perfection, complexity, and especially not intelligence.
I always thought this would naturally arise out of the process. Obviously I cannot be too wrong, because we're here after all.
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crkhd
☾☼☽


Registered: 12/28/08
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: OldHam]
#18769975 - 08/28/13 07:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
OldHam said: If I was 'in my Master's in theoretical physics in one of the most renowned universities for the topic on the globe' I sincerely doubt I'd be piddling around here. No offense, to you or anyone here. It's the truth though...
People DO live life you know. The same life we all live. The richest people in the world still have to put up with stubbing their toes on corners and wet socks, although I am not so sure about the latter.
In my home city I walk past billionaires and bums alike. They all look the same, they're all made of flesh. Shows you how damn close we are. By the way physics is like the one field where psychedelics rein supreme, it's all the rage in academia. Nothing like studying theory of mind by observing manifestation of mind
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
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sukhavati12
Level 50 Mushroom Shaman



Registered: 07/03/13
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: Lord_McLovin]
#18771802 - 08/29/13 04:15 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:
Evolution is NOT the march to biological perfection, complexity, and especially not intelligence.
I always thought this would naturally arise out of the process. Obviously I cannot be too wrong, because we're here after all.
Can this thread talk about the Fermi Paradox yet?
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crkhd
☾☼☽


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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: Lord_McLovin]
#18771918 - 08/29/13 05:49 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:
Evolution is NOT the march to biological perfection, complexity, and especially not intelligence.
I always thought this would naturally arise out of the process. Obviously I cannot be too wrong, because we're here after all.
Translation: I have made the decision to bum around on the couch and smoke pot and eat cheetos therefore all other creatures do not wish to march to biological perfection, complexity, and especially not intelligence
amirite?
Projection is a heckuva drug! Evolution, like life, is whatever you want it to be. That's evolution.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
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ressa69
Stranger
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Re: Is inteligence genetic, or is it just a mindstate? [Re: crkhd]
#18771997 - 08/29/13 07:00 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
crkhd said:
Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:
Evolution is NOT the march to biological perfection, complexity, and especially not intelligence.
I always thought this would naturally arise out of the process. Obviously I cannot be too wrong, because we're here after all.
Translation: I have made the decision to bum around on the couch and smoke pot and eat cheetos therefore all other creatures do not wish to march to biological perfection, complexity, and especially not intelligence
amirite?
Projection is a heckuva drug! Evolution, like life, is whatever you want it to be. That's evolution.
Evolution is a quantitative science.
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