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Anonymous #1

How solid is this case based on this info ?
    #18749006 - 08/23/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So my buddy was on his way to score some H.

He was driving down the road flaming some tinfoil (apparently to burn off the epoxy) and an undercover narcotics agent saw him and radioed in the thugs to take him down.

Within 15 seconds 5 cop cars were up his ass and came out guns drawn "hands in the air, get out of the car" etc.

They ripped through the car and find the burned tinfoil, with ZERO drug residue on it, a straw that has been bitten in half, a bottle of tramadol and about 20 water balloons.

Nothing in the car had any drug residue on it whatsoever. At one point the cops thought he was going to smoke his tramadol on the foil. The balloons were honestly for pranks at work. Unless he was dealing I don't know why the balloons were considered paraphernalia.  There were no drugs at all.

This went down about a half mile away from the drug hot zone where people openly cop their drugs so the cops started out with "we saw you buy dope" but forgot about that relatively quick and leaned on "the agent saw you flaming the foil"

Since he hadn't gotten his dope yet he didn't think anything of flaming the tinfoil. Still a stupid move though for sure.

So yeah. Cops saw him burning tin foil with lighter.  Aggressively pulled him over. Searched car and found burned tinfoil, a straw that was chewed in half (by his puppy of course :wink:), a bottle of legally prescribed tramadol and a bunch of balloons. He was arrested, car towed and all. Apparently burning tinfoil voids your rights ?

He is getting charged with Class a class A misdemeanor Possession of drug paraphernalia with intent to use. Not a paraphernalia based on residue but instead it's intent to use. It is a class A because it was by a church making it a drug free zone.

He is going to lawyer up, What do you think he could with it ? Does it look like he could get it dropped or just lowered to class C ? He wan't to shoot for a total drop obviously. His case worker told him that the DA might just dismiss it and that he hadn't seen to many cases like this where there was ZERO residue.

After all, he was just burning the tin foil because he was bored ya know ? since when is that illegal.

NO OFFICER, I WASN'T GOING TO SMOKE ANYTHING OFF OF THAT TINFOIL !!!

Oh and a quick question on top of that. He has his first court date in a few weeks where I believe they are just going to present him with the charges he is facing. There is no way they are going to ask for a drug test here right ? for any sort of record or anything ? He hasn't been through these hoops before so he doesn't know shit about it. Thanks for any answer on this.


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Anonymous #2

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18749724 - 08/24/13 12:09 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Any halfway decent lawyer (even a PD) will send the pigs packing and get a dismissal.  He does not owe anyone an explanation as to why he was burning foil if there is truly no residue.


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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #18750880 - 08/24/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Any halfway decent lawyer (even a PD) will send the pigs packing and get a dismissal.  He does not owe anyone an explanation as to why he was burning foil if there is truly no residue.




That's what I'm saying dude. Thanks for that ! 

Shit is bullshit huh.


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Offlineallreadyused
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18752285 - 08/24/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Shouldn't need a lawyer right away, unless you got the cash than fuck it hire one.  A PD would be okay but I wouldn't ask for one right away.  At the first court date he should say he's representing himself and plead not guilty and request a full jury trial.  The Judge, Magistrate, cop, or DA may try to intimidate him and say they'll put you in jail to get raped by X amount of inmates every day for X amount of years.  All bullshit!  If they take it to trial (have a lawyer or PD by that point) they'll most likely offer some easy probation / drug class deal that day or several before.  If it's a first time offense or the guy doesn't have a major criminal history this almost always happens.  A DA isn't going to want to put a whole lot of resources into a Misdemeanor. 
It sounds like it would be possible to fight the legality of the stop and have the evidence thrown out.  But that would take a good bit of work and cash for him to do that.  Keep in mind most of the drug laws are designed to get money out of you.  From the fines and court costs, property seizures, to the fee's you'll have to pay to attend court mandated drug counseling.  All the way to the money you'll pay your defense attorney who is a member of the BAR association along with the DA's and Judge's.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: allreadyused]
    #18757417 - 08/25/13 10:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like they caught him.  50/50 whether or not he can BS his way out of it.

Asking for a trial is an I teresting strategy.  I am not sure if the da would feel like taking this to trial.


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Anonymous #3

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18757658 - 08/25/13 11:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sucks.  An arrest.  And now having to deal with charges that may or may not go anywhere.
H is addictive and you can end up in bad places because of it.  I'd lawyer up and have it tossed.  Call a few attorneys, realize they are there just for the money.  You are gonna have to file stuff.  Maybe play offense, wrongful arrest and such.  The offense card wont' work because they knew 100% what was up beforehand.  They just don't pounce.  They watch and know everything before doing anything.  They just wanted to rack up another arrest.


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Invisiblekeyohnah
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18757838 - 08/25/13 11:43 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

A lot also depends on what he said to the police officers or if he exercised his right to be silent. That's one of the most common steps through the process where someone fucks themselves over.


--------------------
"Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story."


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: allreadyused]
    #18758738 - 08/26/13 07:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

allreadyused said:
At the first court date he should say he's representing himself and plead not guilty and request a full jury trial. 


He may not have a right to a jury trial.  Not every state gives such a right in misdemeanor cases.
Quote:



It sounds like it would be possible to fight the legality of the stop and have the evidence thrown out. 


That's an uphill fight for sure.  The officers had probable cause because a cop witnessed him flaming the foil.  This is almost certainly enough to justify the search.
Quote:

Keep in mind most of the drug laws are designed to get money out of you.  From the fines and court costs, property seizures, to the fee's you'll have to pay to attend court mandated drug counseling.  All the way to the money you'll pay your defense attorney who is a member of the BAR association along with the DA's and Judge's.



The drug war isn't about getting money from defendants.  If it were, it'd be a terrible investment since it costs far more to enforce the drug laws than they collect from defendants.


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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18759379 - 08/26/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

keyohnah said:
A lot also depends on what he said to the police officers or if he exercised his right to be silent. That's one of the most common steps through the process where someone fucks themselves over.




He didn't admit to anything at all, in the slightest. Not even flaming the tin foil. The only thing he said was that he "probably left the tinfoil in there after a bbq". Didn't admit to anything
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Sounds like they caught him.  50/50 whether or not he can BS his way out of it.

Asking for a trial is an I teresting strategy.  I am not sure if the da would feel like taking this to trial.




What do you mean it sounds like they caught ?  If you take something to trial and lose then you have to face the max right ?


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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759383 - 08/26/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It honestly sounds like they are leaning towards him smoking the tramadol. If it came down to this, would it be better to say that he smoking the tramadol and maybe get charged with abusing a prescription instead of paraphernalia ? or would it still be the same  ?


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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759401 - 08/26/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know anything about law so I'm tryin to soak up as much info for him as I can. If there was no drug residue found at all,  if he just says "I was burning the foil because I felt like it. I was bored" who is to say that he didn't. How do they draw a line if he is saying he was just doing it for the hell of it and they are saying he was going to do drugs. Had there been residue it makes sense.

If you had to guess, what strategy do you think the lawyer will first take on this ?

With my zero knowledge on this, I would think that the stop is justifiable because he was witnessed flaming the foil, like Enill said. Isn't it more likely to just convince them that the paraphernalia was in fact, not paraphernalia and was just going to be used to smoke something legal at home. Just happened to be burning the foil while he was bored ya know ?


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InvisibleB_BOY
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759405 - 08/26/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If you can be charged for having rolling papers and no weed, this will probably make the cut also


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InvisibleCounterCulturest
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Registered: 01/18/10
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: B_BOY]
    #18759411 - 08/26/13 12:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

B_BOY said:
If you can be charged for having rolling papers and no weed, this will probably make the cut also




What ? really ? how or when does that go down usually ?since you can buy them at the store, what angle do the cops work on that ?


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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: CounterCulturest]
    #18759440 - 08/26/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Since this is only a misdemeanor, it's not worth much money and time to them right ? Do they try to size the case up based on how much they can make off of you vs. how much it could/will cost them to win the case and if the juice isn't worth the squeeze then they will be more inclined to drop it ?

He intends on throwing as much money at this as it may take because he really doesn't want it to stick. He might be able to throw 2,000$ per month at this if he needs to and do everything he can to draw this case out as long as he can.


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InvisibleB_BOY
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: CounterCulturest]
    #18759456 - 08/26/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CounterCulturest said:
Quote:

B_BOY said:
If you can be charged for having rolling papers and no weed, this will probably make the cut also




What ? really ? how or when does that go down usually ?since you can buy them at the store, what angle do the cops work on that ?



It;s called paraphernalia, in my state you can have ur driver license taken for 6 months just based on that.


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InvisibleCounterCulturest
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: B_BOY]
    #18759482 - 08/26/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I just don't see how having only rolling papers can result in that . Is it because of the circumstance of when you were caught or what ? unless you had some other shit on you I don't understand how that works.


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InvisibleB_BOY
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: CounterCulturest]
    #18759491 - 08/26/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i really can't explain the technical reason, all i know is that that is how it works here, sure you could probably fight and if you lose face stiffer penalties. i will look maybe it has changed from a few years ago, i hope so :lol:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759566 - 08/26/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The hard reality is that it all depends on what the jury believes.  Is the jury likely to believe that he was randomly heating up some foil while driving down the street?  I doubt it.

As much as the state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to use the stuff for illegal drugs, keep in mind that the doubt must be reasonable.  Is it reasonable to believe that he might have been heating the foil for another purpose? 

On top of that, how is he supposed to tell the jury that he had no intention of using the stuff for drugs?  Unless he testifies, I don't see it happening.  If he DOES testify, he will likely be destroyed by the prosecutor.  He doesn't sound like the smartest dude on the planet as it is, but he's at a serious disadvantage if he thinks he's going to lie on the stand and not have it made obvious to the jury.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759576 - 08/26/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
What do you mean it sounds like they caught ?  If you take something to trial and lose then you have to face the max right ?





Sounds like the cops saw him do something illegal and got him.

If you take it to trial and lose you do not automatically get the max.  You generally get more than the plea offer though.

Quote:

Anonymous said:
It honestly sounds like they are leaning towards him smoking the tramadol. If it came down to this, would it be better to say that he smoking the tramadol and maybe get charged with abusing a prescription instead of paraphernalia ? or would it still be the same  ?




No!  Then he would have to lie and would end up with a DUI also.

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Since this is only a misdemeanor, it's not worth much money and time to them right ?




He should fight this because the states case is flimsy, and he has a clean record.  It is worth $2000 for a lawyer to keep your record free of drug crimes.

I guess his only defense is that he was playing with a lighter and tinfoil.  That sounds like kind of a weak defense now that I think about it...

Quote:

Do they try to size the case up based on how much they can make off of you vs. how much it could/will cost them to win the case and if the juice isn't worth the squeeze then they will be more inclined to drop it ?




I do not think that is how they do the calculations, but enlil would have more insight into that than I do.

Quote:

He intends on throwing as much money at this as it may take because he really doesn't want it to stick. He might be able to throw 2,000$ per month at this if he needs to and do everything he can to draw this case out as long as he can.




2000 a month sounds like a bit much, I think he could get a lawyer to fight it for 1500 or maybe less if he shops around.

Quote:

I don't know anything about law so I'm tryin to soak up as much info for him as I can. If there was no drug residue found at all,  if he just says "I was burning the foil because I felt like it. I was bored" who is to say that he didn't. How do they draw a line if he is saying he was just doing it for the hell of it and they are saying he was going to do drugs. Had there been residue it makes sense.




I guess that flaming foil when you are bored is a bad way to reduce bordem.  Could easily result in a drug charge.





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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18759593 - 08/26/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Do they try to size the case up based on how much they can make off of you vs. how much it could/will cost them to win the case and if the juice isn't worth the squeeze then they will be more inclined to drop it ?



They don't consider how much they can "make off of" a defendant.  They do, however, take multiple factors into consideration when deciding what to offer a defendant.  Some factors are:

1. Seriousness of the charge
2. Prior criminal history of the defendant
3. Strength of the case
4. Whether the defendant has a job/family/stable home situation.


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