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Anonymous #1

How solid is this case based on this info ?
    #18749006 - 08/23/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

So my buddy was on his way to score some H.

He was driving down the road flaming some tinfoil (apparently to burn off the epoxy) and an undercover narcotics agent saw him and radioed in the thugs to take him down.

Within 15 seconds 5 cop cars were up his ass and came out guns drawn "hands in the air, get out of the car" etc.

They ripped through the car and find the burned tinfoil, with ZERO drug residue on it, a straw that has been bitten in half, a bottle of tramadol and about 20 water balloons.

Nothing in the car had any drug residue on it whatsoever. At one point the cops thought he was going to smoke his tramadol on the foil. The balloons were honestly for pranks at work. Unless he was dealing I don't know why the balloons were considered paraphernalia.  There were no drugs at all.

This went down about a half mile away from the drug hot zone where people openly cop their drugs so the cops started out with "we saw you buy dope" but forgot about that relatively quick and leaned on "the agent saw you flaming the foil"

Since he hadn't gotten his dope yet he didn't think anything of flaming the tinfoil. Still a stupid move though for sure.

So yeah. Cops saw him burning tin foil with lighter.  Aggressively pulled him over. Searched car and found burned tinfoil, a straw that was chewed in half (by his puppy of course :wink:), a bottle of legally prescribed tramadol and a bunch of balloons. He was arrested, car towed and all. Apparently burning tinfoil voids your rights ?

He is getting charged with Class a class A misdemeanor Possession of drug paraphernalia with intent to use. Not a paraphernalia based on residue but instead it's intent to use. It is a class A because it was by a church making it a drug free zone.

He is going to lawyer up, What do you think he could with it ? Does it look like he could get it dropped or just lowered to class C ? He wan't to shoot for a total drop obviously. His case worker told him that the DA might just dismiss it and that he hadn't seen to many cases like this where there was ZERO residue.

After all, he was just burning the tin foil because he was bored ya know ? since when is that illegal.

NO OFFICER, I WASN'T GOING TO SMOKE ANYTHING OFF OF THAT TINFOIL !!!

Oh and a quick question on top of that. He has his first court date in a few weeks where I believe they are just going to present him with the charges he is facing. There is no way they are going to ask for a drug test here right ? for any sort of record or anything ? He hasn't been through these hoops before so he doesn't know shit about it. Thanks for any answer on this.

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Anonymous #2

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18749724 - 08/24/13 12:09 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Any halfway decent lawyer (even a PD) will send the pigs packing and get a dismissal.  He does not owe anyone an explanation as to why he was burning foil if there is truly no residue.

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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #18750880 - 08/24/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Any halfway decent lawyer (even a PD) will send the pigs packing and get a dismissal.  He does not owe anyone an explanation as to why he was burning foil if there is truly no residue.




That's what I'm saying dude. Thanks for that ! 

Shit is bullshit huh.

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Offlineallreadyused
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18752285 - 08/24/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Shouldn't need a lawyer right away, unless you got the cash than fuck it hire one.  A PD would be okay but I wouldn't ask for one right away.  At the first court date he should say he's representing himself and plead not guilty and request a full jury trial.  The Judge, Magistrate, cop, or DA may try to intimidate him and say they'll put you in jail to get raped by X amount of inmates every day for X amount of years.  All bullshit!  If they take it to trial (have a lawyer or PD by that point) they'll most likely offer some easy probation / drug class deal that day or several before.  If it's a first time offense or the guy doesn't have a major criminal history this almost always happens.  A DA isn't going to want to put a whole lot of resources into a Misdemeanor. 
It sounds like it would be possible to fight the legality of the stop and have the evidence thrown out.  But that would take a good bit of work and cash for him to do that.  Keep in mind most of the drug laws are designed to get money out of you.  From the fines and court costs, property seizures, to the fee's you'll have to pay to attend court mandated drug counseling.  All the way to the money you'll pay your defense attorney who is a member of the BAR association along with the DA's and Judge's.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: allreadyused]
    #18757417 - 08/25/13 10:06 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Sounds like they caught him.  50/50 whether or not he can BS his way out of it.

Asking for a trial is an I teresting strategy.  I am not sure if the da would feel like taking this to trial.

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Anonymous #3

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18757658 - 08/25/13 11:02 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Sucks.  An arrest.  And now having to deal with charges that may or may not go anywhere.
H is addictive and you can end up in bad places because of it.  I'd lawyer up and have it tossed.  Call a few attorneys, realize they are there just for the money.  You are gonna have to file stuff.  Maybe play offense, wrongful arrest and such.  The offense card wont' work because they knew 100% what was up beforehand.  They just don't pounce.  They watch and know everything before doing anything.  They just wanted to rack up another arrest.

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Invisiblekeyohnah
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18757838 - 08/25/13 11:43 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

A lot also depends on what he said to the police officers or if he exercised his right to be silent. That's one of the most common steps through the process where someone fucks themselves over.


--------------------
"Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story."

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: allreadyused]
    #18758738 - 08/26/13 07:59 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

allreadyused said:
At the first court date he should say he's representing himself and plead not guilty and request a full jury trial. 


He may not have a right to a jury trial.  Not every state gives such a right in misdemeanor cases.
Quote:



It sounds like it would be possible to fight the legality of the stop and have the evidence thrown out. 


That's an uphill fight for sure.  The officers had probable cause because a cop witnessed him flaming the foil.  This is almost certainly enough to justify the search.
Quote:

Keep in mind most of the drug laws are designed to get money out of you.  From the fines and court costs, property seizures, to the fee's you'll have to pay to attend court mandated drug counseling.  All the way to the money you'll pay your defense attorney who is a member of the BAR association along with the DA's and Judge's.



The drug war isn't about getting money from defendants.  If it were, it'd be a terrible investment since it costs far more to enforce the drug laws than they collect from defendants.


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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18759379 - 08/26/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

keyohnah said:
A lot also depends on what he said to the police officers or if he exercised his right to be silent. That's one of the most common steps through the process where someone fucks themselves over.




He didn't admit to anything at all, in the slightest. Not even flaming the tin foil. The only thing he said was that he "probably left the tinfoil in there after a bbq". Didn't admit to anything
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Sounds like they caught him.  50/50 whether or not he can BS his way out of it.

Asking for a trial is an I teresting strategy.  I am not sure if the da would feel like taking this to trial.




What do you mean it sounds like they caught ?  If you take something to trial and lose then you have to face the max right ?

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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759383 - 08/26/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

It honestly sounds like they are leaning towards him smoking the tramadol. If it came down to this, would it be better to say that he smoking the tramadol and maybe get charged with abusing a prescription instead of paraphernalia ? or would it still be the same  ?

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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759401 - 08/26/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know anything about law so I'm tryin to soak up as much info for him as I can. If there was no drug residue found at all,  if he just says "I was burning the foil because I felt like it. I was bored" who is to say that he didn't. How do they draw a line if he is saying he was just doing it for the hell of it and they are saying he was going to do drugs. Had there been residue it makes sense.

If you had to guess, what strategy do you think the lawyer will first take on this ?

With my zero knowledge on this, I would think that the stop is justifiable because he was witnessed flaming the foil, like Enill said. Isn't it more likely to just convince them that the paraphernalia was in fact, not paraphernalia and was just going to be used to smoke something legal at home. Just happened to be burning the foil while he was bored ya know ?

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InvisibleB_BOY
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759405 - 08/26/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

If you can be charged for having rolling papers and no weed, this will probably make the cut also


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InvisibleCounterCulturest
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: B_BOY]
    #18759411 - 08/26/13 12:21 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

B_BOY said:
If you can be charged for having rolling papers and no weed, this will probably make the cut also




What ? really ? how or when does that go down usually ?since you can buy them at the store, what angle do the cops work on that ?

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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: CounterCulturest]
    #18759440 - 08/26/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Since this is only a misdemeanor, it's not worth much money and time to them right ? Do they try to size the case up based on how much they can make off of you vs. how much it could/will cost them to win the case and if the juice isn't worth the squeeze then they will be more inclined to drop it ?

He intends on throwing as much money at this as it may take because he really doesn't want it to stick. He might be able to throw 2,000$ per month at this if he needs to and do everything he can to draw this case out as long as he can.

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InvisibleB_BOY
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: CounterCulturest]
    #18759456 - 08/26/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

CounterCulturest said:
Quote:

B_BOY said:
If you can be charged for having rolling papers and no weed, this will probably make the cut also




What ? really ? how or when does that go down usually ?since you can buy them at the store, what angle do the cops work on that ?



It;s called paraphernalia, in my state you can have ur driver license taken for 6 months just based on that.


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InvisibleCounterCulturest
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: B_BOY]
    #18759482 - 08/26/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I just don't see how having only rolling papers can result in that . Is it because of the circumstance of when you were caught or what ? unless you had some other shit on you I don't understand how that works.

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InvisibleB_BOY
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: CounterCulturest]
    #18759491 - 08/26/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

i really can't explain the technical reason, all i know is that that is how it works here, sure you could probably fight and if you lose face stiffer penalties. i will look maybe it has changed from a few years ago, i hope so :lol:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759566 - 08/26/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

The hard reality is that it all depends on what the jury believes.  Is the jury likely to believe that he was randomly heating up some foil while driving down the street?  I doubt it.

As much as the state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to use the stuff for illegal drugs, keep in mind that the doubt must be reasonable.  Is it reasonable to believe that he might have been heating the foil for another purpose? 

On top of that, how is he supposed to tell the jury that he had no intention of using the stuff for drugs?  Unless he testifies, I don't see it happening.  If he DOES testify, he will likely be destroyed by the prosecutor.  He doesn't sound like the smartest dude on the planet as it is, but he's at a serious disadvantage if he thinks he's going to lie on the stand and not have it made obvious to the jury.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759576 - 08/26/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
What do you mean it sounds like they caught ?  If you take something to trial and lose then you have to face the max right ?





Sounds like the cops saw him do something illegal and got him.

If you take it to trial and lose you do not automatically get the max.  You generally get more than the plea offer though.

Quote:

Anonymous said:
It honestly sounds like they are leaning towards him smoking the tramadol. If it came down to this, would it be better to say that he smoking the tramadol and maybe get charged with abusing a prescription instead of paraphernalia ? or would it still be the same  ?




No!  Then he would have to lie and would end up with a DUI also.

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Since this is only a misdemeanor, it's not worth much money and time to them right ?




He should fight this because the states case is flimsy, and he has a clean record.  It is worth $2000 for a lawyer to keep your record free of drug crimes.

I guess his only defense is that he was playing with a lighter and tinfoil.  That sounds like kind of a weak defense now that I think about it...

Quote:

Do they try to size the case up based on how much they can make off of you vs. how much it could/will cost them to win the case and if the juice isn't worth the squeeze then they will be more inclined to drop it ?




I do not think that is how they do the calculations, but enlil would have more insight into that than I do.

Quote:

He intends on throwing as much money at this as it may take because he really doesn't want it to stick. He might be able to throw 2,000$ per month at this if he needs to and do everything he can to draw this case out as long as he can.




2000 a month sounds like a bit much, I think he could get a lawyer to fight it for 1500 or maybe less if he shops around.

Quote:

I don't know anything about law so I'm tryin to soak up as much info for him as I can. If there was no drug residue found at all,  if he just says "I was burning the foil because I felt like it. I was bored" who is to say that he didn't. How do they draw a line if he is saying he was just doing it for the hell of it and they are saying he was going to do drugs. Had there been residue it makes sense.




I guess that flaming foil when you are bored is a bad way to reduce bordem.  Could easily result in a drug charge.




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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18759593 - 08/26/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Do they try to size the case up based on how much they can make off of you vs. how much it could/will cost them to win the case and if the juice isn't worth the squeeze then they will be more inclined to drop it ?



They don't consider how much they can "make off of" a defendant.  They do, however, take multiple factors into consideration when deciding what to offer a defendant.  Some factors are:

1. Seriousness of the charge
2. Prior criminal history of the defendant
3. Strength of the case
4. Whether the defendant has a job/family/stable home situation.


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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Enlil]
    #18759742 - 08/26/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The hard reality is that it all depends on what the jury believes.  Is the jury likely to believe that he was randomly heating up some foil while driving down the street?  I doubt it.

As much as the state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to use the stuff for illegal drugs, keep in mind that the doubt must be reasonable.  Is it reasonable to believe that he might have been heating the foil for another purpose? 

On top of that, how is he supposed to tell the jury that he had no intention of using the stuff for drugs?  Unless he testifies, I don't see it happening.  If he DOES testify, he will likely be destroyed by the prosecutor.  He doesn't sound like the smartest dude on the planet as it is, but he's at a serious disadvantage if he thinks he's going to lie on the stand and not have it made obvious to the jury.




I don't think he ever planned on taking this to trial because he is lying about it. Just going keep it in the regular court below the trial, whatever that is ?

@ Alan, About the tramadol and dui. Does he have to admit that he was going to smoke it right then and there ? what if he was just flaming the foil now but didn't plan on smoking the pills until later ? Is that just out of the question to expect them to believe that he was just "prepping" his foil for later when he could smoke the pills ?

And if the pills were legally prescribed to him, he could still get a dui for it (those pills you can legally drive on) ? and not just some sort misuse of his pills charge ?

Based on those 4 things that Enill just listed, does it seem like with a decent lawyer he could get this all dismissed. I was always sorta under the impression that a good lawyer could do anything and from what I can tell this IS a flimsy case to a degree. 

He has had a stable job his whole life, goes to scool, no prior record  and has a stable life with a family and home etc.

So you think a 1500$ lawyer is pretty good ? He is gonna start looking around soon he is just trying to gather info on how to find a good lawyer for his case and whatnot.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759771 - 08/26/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

In the US, a good lawyer can not get any case dismissed.  Only the cases where cops made certain mistakes can get dismissed.

I think 1500 is a reasonable lawyer fee for a case like this.  Many lawyers would ask for more, however they often have negotiable prices.

Regarding dui's, if he wants to avoid them he should not mention anything about drug use and cars.  Police arrest people for DUI's for driving on legally prescribed drugs all the time.  They usually say something like "looks like you took a bit too many of your pills today..."

Regarding what to tell the police and what to admit and what not to admit, it is very simple.  This video does a better job of explaining it than I can.  No need to make up any BS, that will just piss the cops off and give them more ammo to use against you.


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Anonymous #1

Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18759801 - 08/26/13 02:30 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Cool we will watch that, thank you.

You called this case flimsy a few posts back Alan. From what you know so far do you think we stand a decent chance at getting this totally dropped ? At the very minimum I want him to get it dropped to a Class C.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18759994 - 08/26/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

It could go either way.  The lack of drug residue helps, as does the lack of confession.  In borderline cases like these, spending some money on a lawyer is a good investment.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 1
    #18779997 - 08/31/13 01:18 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

> In the US, a good lawyer can not get any case dismissed.

Yeah, it can.  The right name on your papers can get shit reduced or even dropped.  It's pretty rare for a good case to get outright dropped.  But with a big name and a shaky case I know it happens all the time.

Quote:

The drug war isn't about getting money from defendants.  If it were, it'd be a terrible investment since it costs far more to enforce the drug laws than they collect from defendants.




Wrong.  The drug war is about money, bigotry, fascism, racism, and a general intolerance towards freedom.

A HUGE part of this is the money.  The government gets money from the defendants, and it doesn't COST them anything on the back end.  They make money at every step.  They MAKE money from the fines AND the prison time, administrators, and all the foolishness that goes along with imprisoning someone.  Then they continue to make money from probation.

It might not be all that obvious, but NOTHING costs the government ANYTHING because they don't pay for anything, YOU and I do.  Who cares how much something costs when it's somebody else's money and they get the benefit?  Nobody!  If I could spend $100 of your money to make $10 myself, then why wouldn't I?

So they fine you $1,000 then jail you for 1 year @ $31,000 per year, then you pay probation fees for the next 5 years and also make ~$41,000/??? per year on that for a probation officer's salary.  So the fine is really the least of it.

All told they just MADE $34,000 dollars on even a minor example like this. (PO has multiple "clients" obviously.)  A decent chunk of this money leaks out to corporations for the goods that are involved, but you don't hear them complain much when they're cashing the checks.

The result of this system is ever increasing prosecutions and punishments.  They don't care if it costs them $10,000 of YOUR tax money in order to extract ANOTHER few thousand out of you.  To even suggest any sort of change would threaten their job security.

There is no incentive whatsoever, at any level, to be cost effective, efficient, or even use common sense.  YOUR money is the carrot, and the only stick is economic collapse.  The government is optimized to extract as much money as possible from it's citizens and keep us perched on the edge of economic disaster.  If/when the economy/budget implodes then someone is ousted and another idiot takes charge.  Of course to recover from economic troubles requires MORE money from YOU, and you'll also have to tighten your belt and work harder, even as the government services, benefits, and safety nets get cut.



In any case, if I were the OP I wouldn't waste a dime on this case.  They have ZERO, zilch, nada!  There's not one shred of evidence of ANY criminal activity.  Tinfoil is not illegal, nor are lighters, rolling papers, etc..

It won't go to trial, because it would be an embarrassment and likely result in a false arrest, harassment, etc. lawsuit.  It's just another case of pinching you for money.  Either you pay them some money or you pay the lawyer club some money.  Either way they have the satisfaction of fucking over a scumbag like you.

Likely the moment you pay a lawyer they'll drop the charges.  Try to fight it yourself and they'll sweat you right to the last moment, hoping you'll break.  They may even do this if you DO have a lawyer, knowing it will jack your legal bill to the max.

I've seen several, and had one personal case, where they had no intentions from the start of presenting a case.

The cops once destroyed my license, charged me with a misdemeanor, upped the charges when I offered a minimum fine and reduced charge plea, then made me drive 420 miles TWICE for court.  When I showed up the day of trial they made me sit there for an hour just to tell me that the case was dismissed.  I was furious and wanted to complain on the record, but they denied me even this saying since my case was dismissed I had no standing to address the court.

Prosecutors frequently do dishonest and immoral things like this IME.  They don't give a shit about their oath of office, and they especially don't give a shit if you are innocent or there are mitigating circumstances.  They are 99.9% above the law, and nothing can ever happen to them unless they do something on the order of raping a child on videotape.

I'd take it to trial.  Most likely it will be dismissed, but don't count on being notified of this until your name is called from the docket.  Get a jury trial and PD if possible.  Ask for the PD right off the bat, unless you're actually trying to delay things.

Go to court and watch a few days worth of cases.  There is no evidence in your case so there will be no presentation of fact at your trial, only legal argument.  Their legal argument will be that tinfoil or heating tinfoil in a car is illegal.  Laughter may ensue during the trial.

Maybe Enlil can clarify this, but I was under the impression that you can't present an argument without some sort of fact involved.  That is, if they have ZERO evidence of intent then how can they legally even embark on that line of reasoning?  I've heard of certain defenses being disallowed because there was no supporting evidence, which would make it pure conjecture?


-FF

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Offlineallreadyused
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: Enlil]
    #18804421 - 09/05/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The drug war isn't about getting money from defendants.  If it were, it'd be a terrible investment since it costs far more to enforce the drug laws than they collect from defendants.




I'm sure you take all your drug cases pro bono...
All the money may not come directly from the defendant but they sure will nickel and dime you to death.
Everyone I know that took an ARD for a DUI had to pay at least $800 to attend the mandatory classes.  That goes for everybody who was required to attend drug counseling too.  The people who run the classes have to get paid after all.  Until you can come up with the money they can suspend your drivers license.  If you get a second DUI you have most likely at least have to pay for an interlock installed in your car and pay (a company who lobbied the for tougher DUI laws) a monthly monitoring fee.  Property seizure laws; no need to prove guilt just that you couldn't afford that with your reported income, find a roach in the ash tray and in some states they can take the car.  Lets not forget private for profit prisons who spend millions of dollars on lobbyists.  How about the defense contractor probably getting paid to monitor this site and report to the NSA who than will hand that information to the DEA? 
From the point of view I am looking from the war on drugs is all about imposing someone else's morals on everybody and making all the money it can to support and increase the bureaucracy.  If it weren't we wouldn't put drug addicts in prison unless they caused direct harm against another person or property.

Quote:

Enlil said:Fuck the Amish



Jesus Christ!  I just saw that; they don't all run puppy mills bro and it's PA's fault for not having tougher laws anyway.  Plenty of other dirt bags that run puppy mills too.  The Amish are kind of dumb and they all smell like manure but I wouldn't say fuck them.  Hate Speech! (I say in my teenage girl voice)


--------------------
Everything I say is for entertainment.

Fuck the ASPCA

Edited by allreadyused (09/05/13 06:26 PM)

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Invisiblefastfred
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Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
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Re: How solid is this case based on this info ? [Re: allreadyused]
    #18805890 - 09/06/13 12:11 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus Christ!  I just saw that; they don't all run puppy mills bro and it's PA's fault for not having tougher laws anyway.  Plenty of other dirt bags that run puppy mills too.  The Amish are kind of dumb and they all smell like manure but I wouldn't say fuck them.  Hate Speech! (I say in my teenage girl voice)




Yeah, using nebulous and most likely false accusations to justify religious bigotry is probably not a good thing.  OTOH, criticizing religion because it's stupid is entirely valid.

It really makes sense that greedy animal breeders are also so sadistic that they will torture the animals, even though that may hurt their profits... I guess.

Everybody knows that bitches must have at least a 1/4 acre to play in, a 100 sq.ft. dog house, get 1 year of maternity leave, and eat only the finest meats.  Maybe once we get to that point we could even start working to get humans those rights!


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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid

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