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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18745569 - 08/23/13 03:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
They are simply following their instinct to eliminate rivals, (which is an evolutionary attribute that favors the strongest males) what does that have to do with owning?





It's actually an instinct to protect their own interests. It has everything to do with ownership. It's a concept that represents a natural order. Humans have collectively observed this natural order and symbolized it for their own protection from it - that symbol being the concept of ownership.
So, there you have it. Ownership is a concept that explains a natural phenomenon, the way atomic theory describes the workings of atomic particles.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #18745597 - 08/23/13 04:05 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It's in it's instinct to fight rivals and find mates, the location is besides the point. You think a lion is going to tell an elephant that water hole is his, or are you a mind reader to know that the lion is thinking that water hole is his?

Are the other animals going to vouch for him that it's his? Or they going to challenge him?

I don't see any concurrence of ownership in nature.

If a bigger badder younger lion comes and takes the older lions pride,  does the old lion still have a right of ownership over his pride?


Edited by teknix (08/23/13 04:13 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18745719 - 08/23/13 05:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

As you've been told ownership in humas  is mostly symbolic.  It's held by power and a deed or receipt is symbolic of that power.  Lose the power and lose the ownership.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (08/23/13 05:34 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #18745720 - 08/23/13 05:34 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

teknix said:
They are simply following their instinct to eliminate rivals, (which is an evolutionary attribute that favors the strongest males) what does that have to do with owning?





It's actually an instinct to protect their own interests. It has everything to do with ownership. It's a concept that represents a natural order. Humans have collectively observed this natural order and symbolized it for their own protection from it - that symbol being the concept of ownership.
So, there you have it. Ownership is a concept that explains a natural phenomenon, the way atomic theory describes the workings of atomic particles.



:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18746006 - 08/23/13 07:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
It's in it's instinct to fight rivals and find mates, the location is besides the point.




The location isn't any more "besides the point" than it is for humans. A human's sense of home isn't, obviously, the physical location itself. Same instincts, same thing.

Quote:


You think a lion is going to tell an elephant that water hole is his?




I think your question is irrelevant. I don't think the lion is likely to regard the elephant's presence in what he considers to be his territory anymore than a farmer is likely to regard the presence of bees in their field as trespassing. :lol:
Yet introduce a lion from another pride into that lion's hunting grounds, and another farmer sneaking into our farmer's fields to sneak watermelons, and you'll clearly see what humans symbolized as "ownership". :wink:


Quote:


, or are you a mind reader to know that the lion is thinking that water hole is his?




I don't speak lion. In an equal vein, I don't think the lion is a mind reader to know what we consider to be ours or not. :shocked:
Yet I'll bet your ass in a big blue bonnet that, if you had a nose for feline pheromones, you'd clearly understand the threat that awaits you if you cross over to the wrong side of the tracks.

Quote:


Are the other animals going to vouch for him that it's his? Or they going to challenge him?




Depends which animals you're referring to. The ones that care, the ones that actually understand the dispute, will certainly take sides. Rawr!

Quote:


I don't see any concurrence of ownership in nature.




It's because you're too used to speaking humanese.

Quote:


If a bigger badder younger lion comes and takes the older lions pride,  does the old lion still have a right of ownership over his pride?




Is it legal to be denied healthcare for a preexisting condition in Indonesia? If the laws are different there than they are in England, for example, does that mean that they don't actually exist? :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god] * 1
    #18746080 - 08/23/13 08:28 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Man, you guys have some stamina to continue arguing with him. All I see is gibberish, circular logic, and loosely define terms. There's nothing I hate more than loosely defined terms. I gave up. Unless someone can give me a practical definition of "Nature" and/or "Natural", I just don't care.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: crumblebum]
    #18746102 - 08/23/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It's all play man.:haha:  There is nothing new under the sun at my age. :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
    #18746111 - 08/23/13 08:36 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Tru dat, tru dat. Alright, I've got some shit to do today, but tonight I'm gonna jump back on this tard parade and hone my critical thinking skills.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: crumblebum]
    #18746184 - 08/23/13 08:54 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Kant wait. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18746719 - 08/23/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
It's in it's instinct to fight rivals and find mates, the location is besides the point.




How do you know that? I don't think they would be choosing a location that is unsuitable for their pride.

Some prides have been known to use the same territory for decades

I think its in their instincts to establish geographical bounds through scent marking. This lets other lions know that this area belongs to another.

They may not have the understanding of ownership that we have evolved to understand but they are clearly expressing it through action.

Humans are territorial animals that have naturally evolved complicated concepts and thought. So naturally our means of owning has been made more complicated.

But the same basic principle is being observed in less intelligent creatures who may operate solely on instinct. I think it is part of our survival instinct too

If our basic necessities weren't easily met then I think you could find yourself becoming violently possessive of your belongings too. The name of the game is survival. Obviously it is a benefit to keep and call something your own, to protect your well being and the well being of your offspring.


Look at chimps, they wage a full on war for their territory.






"University of Michigan and several colleagues have concluded that chimps wage war to conquer new territory"

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1998285,00.html


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (08/23/13 10:59 AM)


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Offlinekennedy
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18746947 - 08/23/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
LOOK, it's not that hard to understand . . .

To have ownership we need two things . . . .

If one of those things is nature . . . .

There has to be something independent from nature . . . .

To own nature . . . .

That's where you come in!





I see what you're getting at, I guess...
- That it doesn't make sense for something to own itself, so anything which owns nature is not nature-
But the problem I see is that 'nature' is not a singular item, it's a conceptual category.  I don't see why there couldn't be an owner/owned relationship within the larger schema of nature.
Ownership is a concept too.  It doesn't describe a true physical state between parts.  It's a practical description.  I don't actually possess some metaphysical control over the matter that I claim to own. It's just useful sometimes in social organization to talk in terms of ownership.


Edited by kennedy (08/23/13 12:07 PM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: kennedy]
    #18747572 - 08/23/13 02:23 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kennedy said:
Quote:

teknix said:
LOOK, it's not that hard to understand . . .

To have ownership we need two things . . . .

If one of those things is nature . . . .

There has to be something independent from nature . . . .

To own nature . . . .

That's where you come in!





I see what you're getting at, I guess...
- That it doesn't make sense for something to own itself, so anything which owns nature is not nature-
But the problem I see is that 'nature' is not a singular item, it's a conceptual category.  I don't see why there couldn't be an owner/owned relationship within the larger schema of nature.
Ownership is a concept too.  It doesn't describe a true physical state between parts.  It's a practical description.  I don't actually possess some metaphysical control over the matter that I claim to own. It's just useful sometimes in social organization to talk in terms of ownership.




If anyone here has been an owner/landlord, and had to evict someone, you will understand the real meaning of ownership.  I mean 6 pages of BS and let's talk having to wait 3 months minimum to get back "your" property from some scrub.

And Justice For All.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #18748063 - 08/23/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You should have handled it more naturally and ripped their children to pieces


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18748608 - 08/23/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
You should have handled it more naturally and ripped their children to pieces




I will let the weasels do it.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18748611 - 08/23/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

kennedy said:
Quote:

teknix said:
LOOK, it's not that hard to understand . . .

To have ownership we need two things . . . .

If one of those things is nature . . . .

There has to be something independent from nature . . . .

To own nature . . . .

That's where you come in!





I see what you're getting at, I guess...
- That it doesn't make sense for something to own itself, so anything which owns nature is not nature-
But the problem I see is that 'nature' is not a singular item, it's a conceptual category.  I don't see why there couldn't be an owner/owned relationship within the larger schema of nature.






Exactly . . .


Quote:


Ownership is a concept too.  It doesn't describe a true physical state between parts.  It's a practical description.  I don't actually possess some metaphysical control over the matter that I claim to own. It's just useful sometimes in social organization to talk in terms of ownership.




And if natural is defined as the observable products of nature, the products of the products of nature (concepts from us) are not innately natural, because they are just concepts or idea's, like ownership and tradition.

Like would you call cannibalism natural? Or think serial killers are only doing whats natural? No, and you wouldn't because as explained above . . . Yourself has to be independent of nature to own nature. Yourself as an organism can't own anything, only yourself as a concept could own anything.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18748624 - 08/23/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Like would you call cannibalism natural? Or think serial killers are only doing whats natural? No,

The answer is yes, they are acting perfectly natural.  Many animals kill and eat their own kind.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18748626 - 08/23/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

No one here can honestly say if the animal is considering anything at all beyond acting on instinct, as ownership being a concept requires consideration of a sentient being.

You can redirect to animals being territorial and say they think it thinks it's owning it, but that say nothing of what it is thinking if it is thinking anything.

For all we know it is jsut acting on instinct, or it could even be thinking it is using the area, you really can't say it is definitely owning something,that is completely absurd, even for shroomery dopes.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18748635 - 08/23/13 07:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Many of our thought out actions likely developed from instinctual behaviors. Your attempts to put people down here just show how weak your ideas are.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
    #18748649 - 08/23/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Like would you call cannibalism natural? Or think serial killers are only doing whats natural? No,

The answer is yes, they are acting perfectly natural.  Many animals kill and eat their own kind.




Sorry, cannibalism and serial killers are also concepts, rather than observations.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18748652 - 08/23/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I have no idea what you're trying to say.  Natural and Unnatural are also concepts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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