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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18742852 - 08/22/13 02:58 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

TryinToTrip said:

two is STILL not enough. ... there would need to be 100-200+ unless we REALLY had a vast amount of combined money.
And once you grow to those numbers, corruption canwill take place.




Therein lies the problem with our civilization, its unfixable. Albeit one can do good with their life, its here to be lived and all. Personally I aim to do good through music, if violence occurs its either accidental or for selfish means (in my own life)

If there were a revolution in this country its likely that I would sit it out, it would be great to drag down the powers that be and massacre them. For me that would be major kicks, but they would be replaced by people equally corrupt. So the risk wouldn't be worth the reward, the reward would only last the few days where politicians were being executed. :sad:



I might join the revolution in aims to stop the corrupt powers from entering the next throne, but I would most likely be unsuccessful or become corrupt myself, and attempt to take that seat. We are all the same, aren't we? :sad:


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #18742863 - 08/22/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:

I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.




You're free to that opinion but I disagree, violence got us the constitution and workers rights. Nonviolence supposedly got us civil rights for blacks, but without the militant threat behind it and the massive support amongst whites - if it were truly up to nonviolence - there would have just been massive beatings.

There are nonviolent solutions to problems, but pacifism doesn't work. Its just religious bs IMO



I agree. We are fooled into thinking pacifism is a good way to change because those in power are afraid of violence.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742937 - 08/22/13 03:13 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Here's a quote from The Dark Knight, the superhero movie that displays vigilante justice in different forms.
"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
I think this is very much a reality in people who try and change the world. And I've always appreciated the displays of class warfare, political ideas, as well as philosophy represented in both the new movie series, and the comic books.
Though in the movies, I've always felt like I connected with the "villains" a bit more than Batman D:
I was talking to my friend the other day about my political beliefs and he said I sounded exactly like Bane :lol:


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18742962 - 08/22/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Laughter is good medicine. :shrug:

IMO, you are thinking about it from an "end-only" POV. Why do people commit those acts in the first place? If you can find the cause and help people before their suffering causes more suffering, then you're on to something.. That isn't to say that people who commit heinous acts should be free from reasonable punishment, but that I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.



I apologize for coming off as aggressive, I just have little patience for rape jokes. Though with this post by you I can see that you have good ideals.
Yeah, this group of vigilantes I speak of would also have to have the willingness and ability to help (some of) these people solve their issues, if they need to. That's why they'd also need to understand psychology and sociology, and how the whole system works. If I could turn my friend's stepdad into a loving, caring father figure rather than the oppressor he is, than I would. I don't think he'd be willing to do that, and since I feel personally offended by his crimes I'm not sure I'd have the patience for it.





It would be difficult, maybe impossible, to help heal someone who hurt you. He has to do it himself. But you (and your friend) don't have to stick around and put up with his bs. I can hope you two can find a way out. :sun:

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:

I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.




You're free to that opinion but I disagree, violence got us the constitution and workers rights. Nonviolence supposedly got us civil rights for blacks, but without the militant threat behind it and the massive support amongst whites - if it were truly up to nonviolence - there would have just been massive beatings.

There are nonviolent solutions to problems, but pacifism doesn't work. Its just religious bs IMO




Nonviolence also got India freedom from Britain, no? I mean, if you're looking to "end violence" then how does it make sense to be violent? I think the Mexicans are exemplary pacifists - if you don't like something, then leave. 

Idk.. I mean, I can see how things could eventually come to a head and violence would be the only way to survive, but I think that's different from going out and using violence as a tool for social change.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18742980 - 08/22/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Laughter is good medicine. :shrug:

IMO, you are thinking about it from an "end-only" POV. Why do people commit those acts in the first place? If you can find the cause and help people before their suffering causes more suffering, then you're on to something.. That isn't to say that people who commit heinous acts should be free from reasonable punishment, but that I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.



I apologize for coming off as aggressive, I just have little patience for rape jokes. Though with this post by you I can see that you have good ideals.
Yeah, this group of vigilantes I speak of would also have to have the willingness and ability to help (some of) these people solve their issues, if they need to. That's why they'd also need to understand psychology and sociology, and how the whole system works. If I could turn my friend's stepdad into a loving, caring father figure rather than the oppressor he is, than I would. I don't think he'd be willing to do that, and since I feel personally offended by his crimes I'm not sure I'd have the patience for it.





It would be difficult, maybe impossible, to help heal someone who hurt you. He has to do it himself. But you (and your friend) don't have to stick around and put up with his bs. I can hope you two can find a way out. :sun:

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:

I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.




You're free to that opinion but I disagree, violence got us the constitution and workers rights. Nonviolence supposedly got us civil rights for blacks, but without the militant threat behind it and the massive support amongst whites - if it were truly up to nonviolence - there would have just been massive beatings.

There are nonviolent solutions to problems, but pacifism doesn't work. Its just religious bs IMO




Nonviolence also got India freedom from Britain, no? I mean, if you're looking to "end violence" then how does it make sense to be violent? I think the Mexicans are exemplary pacifists - if you don't like something, then leave. 

Idk.. I mean, I can see how things could eventually come to a head and violence would be the only way to survive, but I think that's different from going out and using violence as a tool for social change.



The thing with India though, was that it had (and still has) an enormous population, that was almost entirely united in its hatred for British rule. Britain couldn't do shit despite being a world power and they knew that. Plus, Britain wasn't pretending to be nice like the American government does.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18743674 - 08/22/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:

I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.




You're free to that opinion but I disagree, violence got us the constitution and workers rights. Nonviolence supposedly got us civil rights for blacks, but without the militant threat behind it and the massive support amongst whites - if it were truly up to nonviolence - there would have just been massive beatings.

There are nonviolent solutions to problems, but pacifism doesn't work. Its just religious bs IMO




Nonviolence also got India freedom from Britain, no? I mean, if you're looking to "end violence" then how does it make sense to be violent? I think the Mexicans are exemplary pacifists - if you don't like something, then leave. 

Idk.. I mean, I can see how things could eventually come to a head and violence would be the only way to survive, but I think that's different from going out and using violence as a tool for social change.




Nope, India is still enslaved by the bank of England. The threat of violence ended their overt political rule. Buy anyways Gandhi isn't nearly as popular in India as he is here :lol:

Never said anything about ending violence, but lets say someone walks into a mall and starts shooting people - kill em and the violence stops.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18744007 - 08/22/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I am opposed to vigilante justice.  Why would I want people out there who might disagree with what I consider to be right or wrong, and who would gladly kill me if we disagree?  :cuckoo:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: deCypher]
    #18744025 - 08/22/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

So what form of justice do you approve of? Police? Because in most of the world they don't have a very good record.

What I see as positive about the vigilante, is bypassing the law which generally protects the wrong people.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18744045 - 08/22/13 07:39 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I'm also opposed to the police when they enforce laws I don't believe are right.  Rather than justify breaking the law wholly at individual whim, we should be trying to amend the law so that immoral laws are repealed.  :shrug:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: deCypher]
    #18744064 - 08/22/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I'm also opposed to the police when they enforce laws I don't believe are right.  Rather than justify breaking the law wholly at individual whim, we should be trying to amend the law so that immoral laws are repealed.  :shrug:




Well you're welcome to that point of view, but I'm still buying weed tomorrow and doing anything else within or without the law as I see fit. If I didn't feel justified morally in doing so, it wouldn't matter because I'm not a moral person

:teehee:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18744080 - 08/22/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

And you're welcome to continue behaving in that manner, but wouldn't you prefer the rest of society to abide by the majority of our common-sense laws?  I certainly don't want my neighbors deciding that the laws against murder and rape don't apply to them anymore, do you?


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: deCypher]
    #18744095 - 08/22/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're welcome to continue behaving in that manner, but wouldn't you prefer the rest of society to abide by the majority of our common-sense laws?  I certainly don't want my neighbors deciding that the laws against murder and rape don't apply to them anymore, do you?




Fear can keep control without the law in place, when people ignore the law they have fear to contend with regarding murder etc. But if that fear weren't there, then yes it would be horrible for society to break away from the law.

Shouldn't say I'm not moral, that's only half true.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18744110 - 08/22/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're welcome to continue behaving in that manner, but wouldn't you prefer the rest of society to abide by the majority of our common-sense laws?  I certainly don't want my neighbors deciding that the laws against murder and rape don't apply to them anymore, do you?




Fear can keep control without the law in place, when people ignore the law they have fear to contend with regarding murder etc. But if that fear weren't there, then yes it would be horrible for society to break away from the law.




Fear is only there because the law (and therefore the consequences stemming from breaking said law) exists.  Abolishing all law would necessarily imply no negative consequences like prison or the death penalty for our actions.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: deCypher]
    #18744123 - 08/22/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:

Fear is only there because the law (and therefore the consequences stemming from breaking said law) exists.  Abolishing all law would necessarily imply no negative consequences like prison or the death penalty for our actions.




Well before the law there was the vigilante, blood feuds were the law. Kill someone and know that their family is bound in no way from revenge, except for whatever strength your own network has. It was a dangerous thing to do and your family or network may well out you to avoid the trouble of defending.

Personally I would prefer that sort of law, but it necessitates a very small population :sad:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18744135 - 08/22/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Personally I would prefer that sort of law, but it necessitates a very small population :sad:




I'm tempted to agree with you.  Hell, why not legalize duels too while we're at it?  :guns::yesnod:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #18744148 - 08/22/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Shoot dang, I'd probably be dead by now :lol:

Too many nonfriends in the world :paranoid: still think that would be good though in a small population. Kind of off-topic but I'd really love to see gladiatorial combat brought back, death penalty or life in prison could be changed to public entertainment spectacles. People would volunteer to be in the whole thing (like in Roman times). Shoot with globalization it would be ridiculously entertaining (and it didn't usually lead to death), Samurai type fight vs Viking. Would pay $100 to see that shit

Damn christians ruining everything :crankey:


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: deCypher]
    #18745408 - 08/23/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're welcome to continue behaving in that manner, but wouldn't you prefer the rest of society to abide by the majority of our common-sense laws?  I certainly don't want my neighbors deciding that the laws against murder and rape don't apply to them anymore, do you?



Oh because our laws against rape stop them from happening sooo much :rolleyes:
And murder is easier to get away with than you'd think. Especially if you're an unjust person targeting the defenseless that most of society doesn't care about. These are the reasons for so much violence against prostitutes.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: deCypher]
    #18745413 - 08/23/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Personally I would prefer that sort of law, but it necessitates a very small population :sad:




I'm tempted to agree with you.  Hell, why not legalize duels too while we're at it?  :guns::yesnod:



I'm feeling both of these ideas.


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OfflineLeeHarvOz
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18746043 - 08/23/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

LeeHarvOz said:
sounds like you live in a rough neighborhood. if it's bothering you this much i would suggest you try to move somewhere a little less hood. i don't disagree with the idea of vigilante justice but i feel like in your case the best bet would be to mind your own business and not give people a reason to fuck with you. if you go out attacking people or some shit like that next thing you kno you're gunna have some dude that you jumped bring like 10 of his gang member friends to your place to either shoot up your house or try to beat you to death.



That's why I wish there was some sort of  "gang" with legitimate morals. To destroy and defend from these kind.
It's difficult to mind your own business when others won't mind theirs.
I'm out of that neighborhood now, as I said, but being so close to it and being in it as a child has brought me to where I am today.




there is a gang that does that, unfortunately they are just as brutal, corrupt, mindless and greedy as any other gang and they cause their fair share of problems in the community as well. they are called the police and they take applications every year.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: LeeHarvOz]
    #18746705 - 08/23/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LeeHarvOz said:
Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

LeeHarvOz said:
sounds like you live in a rough neighborhood. if it's bothering you this much i would suggest you try to move somewhere a little less hood. i don't disagree with the idea of vigilante justice but i feel like in your case the best bet would be to mind your own business and not give people a reason to fuck with you. if you go out attacking people or some shit like that next thing you kno you're gunna have some dude that you jumped bring like 10 of his gang member friends to your place to either shoot up your house or try to beat you to death.



That's why I wish there was some sort of  "gang" with legitimate morals. To destroy and defend from these kind.
It's difficult to mind your own business when others won't mind theirs.
I'm out of that neighborhood now, as I said, but being so close to it and being in it as a child has brought me to where I am today.




there is a gang that does that, unfortunately they are just as brutal, corrupt, mindless and greedy as any other gang and they cause their fair share of problems in the community as well. they are called the police and they take applications every year.



But do they really have any legitimate morals?.. I mean, they spend half their time trying to make the city money by giving traffic tickets to just whoever they see randomly when EVERYONE violates traffic laws. They enforce the war on drugs, which is awful for people in my area. They're completely reactive and not proactive, and they don't even react to things like domestic abuse, and rape. Yeah, they try and destroy the gangs, but destroy much more of the community surrounding these gangs than the actual members, and they really don't defend, except for defending white people.
If this vigilante group did exist, it would have to have a similar financial idea to the knights of the crusades, where individuals weren't allowed to accumulate wealth, but the group as a whole could, and use it for arms for the members, for distributing it through the community once it was taken out of the hands of gang members, etc. There just wouldn't be the fraudulent banking system like the Knights Templar used.


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