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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Thoughts on vigilante justice.
    #18741868 - 08/22/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I've rewritten this several times trying to organize my thoughts.

I grew up in an area of my city that is basically completely segregated to colored people, with low economic status, and high crime rate up until I was 11, and my parents gained the financial needs to bring my family just right across the highway, into what is basically the white, middle class area of my city. I have friends who still live in that area, and friends that live in mine.

I've seen and heard of horrid crimes being committed against people I know, and some people I love with no justice for them, no protection by the police. I've seen drive by shootings, a man beat half to death for rumors of his homosexuality by religious zealots, I've been sexually harassed, I know many rape victims personally, and have spoken to people I have later learned are rapists themselves. And of course there are the constant cars full of men driving by, cat calling, and threatening women walking down the sidewalk, and who knows what happens at those times when there aren't other people around like me. I also have gaps in my memory unrelated to drug use which according to theories on memory repression, suggest I've seen much more, and there is probably more that I haven't mentioned.

I also recently learned that my best friend of nearly five years has been emotionally, verbally, and physically abused by his stepfather for the entire time I have known him. In fact, there was supposed to be an investigation by child protective services after an incident caused the police to be called, but his step-dad is a cop. There was no investigation.

In this city, the police basically drive around the area I live in now and pull over those that "look like criminals" (basically racial profiling), or the occasional speeder. I've experienced this driving around as a white male, in a nice car, being heavily intoxicated with enormous amounts of drugs in my car, with no trouble. When I spend time with my friends of color, in their neighborhood, in a heavily used 90s jeep, we've been pulled over, yelled at by police, had unjust searches of the vehicle (though they've never found a thing), and threatened to be arrested when I told my friend to say that he doesn't consent to searches, though I knew that is illegal for the police to arrest/detain me, I have no doubt they would have done it anyways.

Within the past year, and specifically within the past months, I've spent a lot of time learning how my government, economics, and the justice system work, with how they relate to oppressing people in the masses.

I also had a surgery at the end of the last month, where they basically cut my back open down the middle, put titanium rods on either side of my vertebrae, pushed my spine straight, and fused my vertebrae together using titanium. I realize that I'll never experience physical pain to such a degree again.

All of these experiences, beliefs, and a vast amount of self hatred which I've learned usually cause people to target others, specifically the innocent and defenseless, have made me think about the idea of using these things to target legitimately bad people, and to defend people who can't do it themselves.

I'm an anarchist, and the idea of punishment by law means nothing to me, but I want to hear the thoughts of others.

What are your thoughts on vigilante justice? When the social contract fails, and we are paying taxes to a government that doesn't use them to defend the people, rather oppress them and keep the criminal rich in positions of power, are we entitled to help the people and ourselves, even if it means committing acts that would be considered crime by this unjust government?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742095 - 08/22/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Well whatever floats your boat but there are so many bad guys that I'd leave it to the superheros.



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Icelander]
    #18742194 - 08/22/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well whatever floats your boat but there are so many bad guys that I'd leave it to the superheros.





Hah, I wish they existed. It's unfortunate. I would love to do this, but I know that I can't have true success on my own. I'd be fucking killed. Vigilantes need to be in large groups, but also have knowledge on psychology and mob mentality to avoid things such as unjust killings of people they think are criminals.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
motional
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Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742238 - 08/22/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

As soon as I mop up all the rapists, I'll be destroying those that drive around heavily intoxicated.  Watch out.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: DisoRDeR] * 1
    #18742251 - 08/22/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

But what if the highly intoxicated driver plows into a rapist-only jail cell? Or the rapist rapes the drunk driver?


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #18742253 - 08/22/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
As soon as I mop up all the rapists, I'll be destroying those that drive around heavily intoxicated.  Watch out.



I'm very sorry. Those were mistakes I truly regret, and will never repeat. I've seen violent car crashes from drunk drivers and it taught me a fucking lesson. I was a dumb teenager who didn't know shit or give a shit.
I'm glad you share my sentiment for rapists. What are your thoughts on violence against children? It's one of the other things I believe deserves death.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18742278 - 08/22/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
But what if the highly intoxicated driver plows into a rapist-only jail cell? Or the rapist rapes the drunk driver?



Not laughing.


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OfflineLeeHarvOz
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Registered: 10/13/10
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742302 - 08/22/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

sounds like you live in a rough neighborhood. if it's bothering you this much i would suggest you try to move somewhere a little less hood. i don't disagree with the idea of vigilante justice but i feel like in your case the best bet would be to mind your own business and not give people a reason to fuck with you. if you go out attacking people or some shit like that next thing you kno you're gunna have some dude that you jumped bring like 10 of his gang member friends to your place to either shoot up your house or try to beat you to death.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742315 - 08/22/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Nothing wrong with going vigilante, but unless shits personal I think its better to leave it be. Humanity has always and will always be corrupt. Also the really bad guys are high up and protected by SS

Kind of fun to think about what someone could do with millions of dollars at their disposal


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
motional
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Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742388 - 08/22/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

It's difficult for me to make a judgement.  I sometimes see humans as a cascade of impressions upon a mind/body evolved with an aptitude for violence, and placing blame upon any individual for perpetuating suffering is to draw a line which doesn't really exist.  But for practical purposes, perhaps lines must be drawn and responsibility assigned.

Ideally I'd like to see people receive the appropriate feedback to realize the implications of their actions and correct their behaviour to something less harmful, though I'm not convinced this is possible in many cases, as humans often suck at learning or giving a fuck about each other.

I was on a bus with a grandmother and some of her family in tajikistan.  She was sitting next to me.  Her very young grandson was playing, then became upset and started crying and wouldn't stop.  In an attempt to correct his behavior she smacked him, several times over the course of several minutes, which likely perpetuated his dismay.  Perhaps I should have killed her.

Kill all the child rapists you like, I suppose.  I have no illusions as to the permanence of current governments and their penal systems, and in any intervening time of anarchy in which imprisonment is untenable, vigilantism is a practical means of keeping the peace and the foundation of a new order as it becomes organized.  Governments ultimately enforce by intimidation anyhow, and if social pressures are insufficient to dissuade such crimes as we're discussing, then people with similar opinions and sufficient motivation will move to impress their sense of right and wrong upon their peers.

I'm curious though how your thoughts on what should or should not be punishable by death align with the link in your sig providing ten reasons the death penalty should be abolished, which I assume you also agree with.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
motional
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Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18742401 - 08/22/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like a job for mr. plow



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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #18742504 - 08/22/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
It's difficult for me to make a judgement.  I sometimes see humans as a cascade of impressions upon a mind/body evolved with an aptitude for violence, and placing blame upon any individual for perpetuating suffering is to draw a line which doesn't really exist.  But for practical purposes, perhaps lines must be drawn and responsibility assigned.

Ideally I'd like to see people receive the appropriate feedback to realize the implications of their actions and correct their behaviour to something less harmful, though I'm not convinced this is possible in many cases, as humans often suck at learning or giving a fuck about each other.

I was on a bus with a grandmother and some of her family in tajikistan.  She was sitting next to me.  Her very young grandson was playing, then became upset and started crying and wouldn't stop.  In an attempt to correct his behavior she smacked him, several times over the course of several minutes, which likely perpetuated his dismay.  Perhaps I should have killed her.

Kill all the child rapists you like, I suppose.  I have no illusions as to the permanence of current governments and their penal systems, and in any intervening time of anarchy in which imprisonment is untenable, vigilantism is a practical means of keeping the peace and the foundation of a new order as it becomes organized.  Governments ultimately enforce by intimidation anyhow, and if social pressures are insufficient to dissuade such crimes as we're discussing, then people with similar opinions and sufficient motivation will move to impress their sense of right and wrong upon their peers.

I'm curious though how your thoughts on what should or should not be punishable by death align with the link in your sig providing ten reasons the death penalty should be abolished, which I assume you also agree with.




Yes, it is altogether an incredibly complicated issue, and with as much hate I have for unjust governing forces, I would hate even more to become one myself. And it is hard to draw the line. Should I have been killed for possibly endangering those around me when I made those mistakes, driving intoxicated, in my early youth? I don't know.
The reason I think the death penalty should be abolished is because the United States government is corrupt, and they deserve no more to enforce what is right and wrong (especially when they don't seem to have a good idea of that) than any other individual or group does.
I think that specifically parents who beat their children should be killed. You cannot bring a child into this world, teach them how to act, and then cruelly punish them for the same behavior you created.
The reason rapists should die is because it is the ultimate power play, creator of mental trauma, and greedy act one person can do unto another in a single event.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: LeeHarvOz]
    #18742528 - 08/22/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LeeHarvOz said:
sounds like you live in a rough neighborhood. if it's bothering you this much i would suggest you try to move somewhere a little less hood. i don't disagree with the idea of vigilante justice but i feel like in your case the best bet would be to mind your own business and not give people a reason to fuck with you. if you go out attacking people or some shit like that next thing you kno you're gunna have some dude that you jumped bring like 10 of his gang member friends to your place to either shoot up your house or try to beat you to death.



That's why I wish there was some sort of  "gang" with legitimate morals. To destroy and defend from these kind.
It's difficult to mind your own business when others won't mind theirs.
I'm out of that neighborhood now, as I said, but being so close to it and being in it as a child has brought me to where I am today.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18742561 - 08/22/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Nothing wrong with going vigilante, but unless shits personal I think its better to leave it be.



Some of it is very personal.

Quote:

Humanity has always and will always be corrupt. Also the really bad guys are high up and protected by SS



This is very true, but every human has options, especially those with power over the defenseless.
And yes, the higher ups have even more options and are even more evil, but are very protected.

Quote:

Kind of fun to think about what someone could do with millions of dollars at their disposal



It disturbs me that those with that kind of money and more don't seem to take any action against those who really deserve it. It's always just fights over more money, more power, more property, etc. They don't care about the people who don't have anything. Only about themselves.
Perhaps I should start another thread, at what point do you receive enough money and power that you lose empathy for other human beings?


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742649 - 08/22/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:

Perhaps I should start another thread, at what point do you receive enough money and power that you lose empathy for other human beings?




Well money and power seem to motivate people in that direction, but in my experience with the wealthy they don't usually lack empathy. I mean most of the wealthy people I've known are very disconnected from reality, living in their suburban bubble but they're not inherently bad people.

If someone wanted to go vigilante I'd root for them, not an easy thing to do though and pretty much futile. There are situations I would do it myself, but I'd also go vigilante on a snitch so you could argue cronyism because it would all have to be personal.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18742789 - 08/22/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

TryinToTrip said:

Perhaps I should start another thread, at what point do you receive enough money and power that you lose empathy for other human beings?




Well money and power seem to motivate people in that direction, but in my experience with the wealthy they don't usually lack empathy. I mean most of the wealthy people I've known are very disconnected from reality, living in their suburban bubble but they're not inherently bad people.

If someone wanted to go vigilante I'd root for them, not an easy thing to do though and pretty much futile. There are situations I would do it myself, but I'd also go vigilante on a snitch so you could argue cronyism because it would all have to be personal.



That's the thing, as one person going vigilante, I am fairly useless. I mean, I can solve my own anger that way, but that's only self benefiting. If I want to truly solve problems, I would have to get a group of highly, self educated individuals (specifically self educated in history, politics, sociology, social justice, psychology, government, and criminal justice), probably anarchists, with a good sum of money, and willing to go to violent measures to protect people they don't even know, who can't protect themselves. Not many fit this criteria... I know one other, personally besides myself who fits this, and he would still need more knowledge to not make mistakes while doing so. And two is STILL not enough. I mean, in my area, with population density and whatnot, there would need to be 100-200+ unless we REALLY had a vast amount of combined money.
And once you grow to those numbers, corruption can take place. There would most likely be distrust, miscommunication, high possibility of infiltration by governing entities, and abuse of the power accumulated.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742811 - 08/22/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Laughter is good medicine. :shrug:

IMO, you are thinking about it from an "end-only" POV. Why do people commit those acts in the first place? If you can find the cause and help people before their suffering causes more suffering, then you're on to something.. That isn't to say that people who commit heinous acts should be free from reasonable punishment, but that I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18742823 - 08/22/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:

two is STILL not enough. ... there would need to be 100-200+ unless we REALLY had a vast amount of combined money.
And once you grow to those numbers, corruption canwill take place.




Therein lies the problem with our civilization, its unfixable. Albeit one can do good with their life, its here to be lived and all. Personally I aim to do good through music, if violence occurs its either accidental or for selfish means (in my own life)

If there were a revolution in this country its likely that I would sit it out, it would be great to drag down the powers that be and massacre them. For me that would be major kicks, but they would be replaced by people equally corrupt. So the risk wouldn't be worth the reward, the reward would only last the few days where politicians were being executed. :sad:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18742838 - 08/22/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:

I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.




You're free to that opinion but I disagree, violence got us the constitution and workers rights. Nonviolence supposedly got us civil rights for blacks, but without the militant threat behind it and the massive support amongst whites - if it were truly up to nonviolence - there would have just been massive beatings.

There are nonviolent solutions to problems, but pacifism doesn't work. Its just religious bs IMO


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InvisibleHalfLight
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Thoughts on vigilante justice. [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18742844 - 08/22/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Laughter is good medicine. :shrug:

IMO, you are thinking about it from an "end-only" POV. Why do people commit those acts in the first place? If you can find the cause and help people before their suffering causes more suffering, then you're on to something.. That isn't to say that people who commit heinous acts should be free from reasonable punishment, but that I don't think perpetuating violence is an intelligent answer.



I apologize for coming off as aggressive, I just have little patience for rape jokes. Though with this post by you I can see that you have good ideals.
Yeah, this group of vigilantes I speak of would also have to have the willingness and ability to help (some of) these people solve their issues, if they need to. That's why they'd also need to understand psychology and sociology, and how the whole system works. If I could turn my friend's stepdad into a loving, caring father figure rather than the oppressor he is, than I would. I don't think he'd be willing to do that, and since I feel personally offended by his crimes I'm not sure I'd have the patience for it.


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