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InvisibleAsante
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Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience
    #18740963 - 08/22/13 05:37 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I just finished reading the book Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience written by eminent cardiologist Pim Van Lommel Here who has done an extensive study into Neard Death Experiences and the phenomena underlying it.

His findings are stunning and I can recommend the book to anyone interested in the inner workings of consciousness. In his theory regarding his findings mention of psychedelics such as LSD and DMT is made as are quotations from world religions and documented historic  NDE experiences dating back to antiquity.

In a nutshell some things he found:

Clear consciousness during periods of zero brain activity and recollection of accurate events that transpired during this braindeath after resucitation, an impossibility if all of consciousness is generated by the brain.

Lifelong colorblind, fully blind and fully deaf people regaining these senses during NDE experiences, seeing, hearing for the first time.

People experiencing the equivalent of days of experience in the mere minutes of a NDE event.

About 20% of people report a NDE after cardiac arrest and experience a lot of positive psychological life changes after the event, but after some years have passed most of those who had ECG flatline but didnt experience a NDE report the same potent psychological changes, such as sharply diminished fear of death.

As to theory, and this clicked a lot with me based on my experimentation with psychedelics and dissociatives, as well as with my philosophies of consciousness, he came to the conclusion that underneath ther localized consciousness we possess (being in this spot now) there is a nonlocal consciousness that permeates everything in the entire universe, which has no boundaries in space, time or scope, and that this infinite consciousness is the essence of YOU from which we emerge by birth, return to nightly while dreaming and will return to after death.

He considers consciousness itself subject to the laws of quantum physics rather than to those of the material plane and sees the brain more as a machine to fixate the Consciousness into the here and now and operate in that realm, rather than as the sole creator of consciousness.

A most extrordinary book and I urge everyone interested in consciousness to read it and think along with its findings and theories.

Which takes the subject to near death experiences and your theories of consciousness. :cookiemonster:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: Asante]
    #18741215 - 08/22/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SOME believe they have caught a glimpse of the afterlife, others claim to have floated above their body, watching as medics save their lives. But the reality of near-death experiences may be much more prosaic.

  Research suggests that far from being a brush with the afterlife, they are caused by a rush of electrical activity in the dying brain.

...

The researchers said that the discovery that the brain was highly active in the seconds after the heart stops suggests that the phenomenon has a physical, rather than spiritual nature.



http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/science/130584-scientists-expose-near-death-experiences-


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: Asante]
    #18741238 - 08/22/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I just finished reading the book Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience written by eminent cardiologist Pim Van Lommel Here who has done an extensive study into Neard Death Experiences and the phenomena underlying it.

His findings are stunning and I can recommend the book to anyone interested in the inner workings of consciousness. In his theory regarding his findings mention of psychedelics such as LSD and DMT is made as are quotations from world religions and documented historic  NDE experiences dating back to antiquity.

In a nutshell some things he found:

Clear consciousness during periods of zero brain activity and recollection of accurate events that transpired during this braindeath after resucitation, an impossibility if all of consciousness is generated by the brain.

Lifelong colorblind, fully blind and fully deaf people regaining these senses during NDE experiences, seeing, hearing for the first time.

People experiencing the equivalent of days of experience in the mere minutes of a NDE event.

About 20% of people report a NDE after cardiac arrest and experience a lot of positive psychological life changes after the event, but after some years have passed most of those who had ECG flatline but didnt experience a NDE report the same potent psychological changes, such as sharply diminished fear of death.

As to theory, and this clicked a lot with me based on my experimentation with psychedelics and dissociatives, as well as with my philosophies of consciousness, he came to the conclusion that underneath ther localized consciousness we possess (being in this spot now) there is a nonlocal consciousness that permeates everything in the entire universe, which has no boundaries in space, time or scope, and that this infinite consciousness is the essence of YOU from which we emerge by birth, return to nightly while dreaming and will return to after death.

He considers consciousness itself subject to the laws of quantum physics rather than to those of the material plane and sees the brain more as a machine to fixate the Consciousness into the here and now and operate in that realm, rather than as the sole creator of consciousness.

A most extrordinary book and I urge everyone interested in consciousness to read it and think along with its findings and theories.

Which takes the subject to near death experiences and your theories of consciousness. :cookiemonster:




Thanks for your post Wiccan Seeker, my own research has led me to the same conclusions.



:mindcontrol:


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18741282 - 08/22/13 08:57 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Its just electric overload. People always want what seems impossible.  Just because we are within that inch of freezing or a hot death.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: dark3st]
    #18741285 - 08/22/13 08:59 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dark3st said:
Its just electric overload. People always want what seems impossible.  Just because we are within that inch of freezing or a hot death.




Try reading the book WIccan recommended and see if your theory holds up.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: deCypher]
    #18741301 - 08/22/13 09:05 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

That does absolutely nothing to explain patients recalling events taking place minutes after the heart stopped which they could have only seen from unusual angles, which have been verified. Nor does an eight fold activity in rat brains for several seconds explain people coming back with many days worth of experience.

Theres a case of a patient describing in detail what was said and which, to them unknown, instruments were used in a brain surgery, with a flat ECG, with a flat EEG, with their eyes taped shut and their ears enclosed with clicking devices to register auditory reflexes making it impossible to hear, and who was deeply hypothermic with all blood drained from the brain..  In that case there was no brain activity, there were no available senses, there was no blood in the brain at all.

Also,

Quote:

Dr. Chris Chambers, senior research fellow at Cardiff University, admitted it was tempting to draw a link between a surge of neural activity and consciousness but there are two barriers to doing so.

      “The first is that we don’t know to what extent rats experience consciousness at all, so we don’t know what the activity means. 

  “Second, even if rats are conscious, to conclude from their brain activity alone that these bursts of activity reflect consciousness would be a logical fallacy known as reverse inference.

  “To overcome these limitations we would need to run a study in humans and relate the changes in activity to what they report about their conscious experience.”




Superficially its easy to pull a materialistic reductionist explanation out of the high hat but it just doesnt fit the available evidence that there's more than can be explained by the "brain produces consciousness" model.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: Asante] * 1
    #18741328 - 08/22/13 09:17 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
That does absolutely nothing to explain patients recalling events taking place minutes after the heart stopped which they could have only seen from unusual angles, which have been verified. Nor does an eight fold activity in rat brains for several seconds explain people coming back with many days worth of experience.

Theres a case of a patient describing in detail what was said and which, to them unknown, instruments were used in a brain surgery, with a flat ECG, with a flat EEG, with their eyes taped shut and their ears enclosed with clicking devices to register auditory reflexes making it impossible to hear, and who was deeply hypothermic with all blood drained from the brain..  In that case there was no brain activity, there were no available senses, there was no blood in the brain at all.

Also,

Quote:

Dr. Chris Chambers, senior research fellow at Cardiff University, admitted it was tempting to draw a link between a surge of neural activity and consciousness but there are two barriers to doing so.

      “The first is that we don’t know to what extent rats experience consciousness at all, so we don’t know what the activity means. 

  “Second, even if rats are conscious, to conclude from their brain activity alone that these bursts of activity reflect consciousness would be a logical fallacy known as reverse inference.

  “To overcome these limitations we would need to run a study in humans and relate the changes in activity to what they report about their conscious experience.”




Superficially its easy to pull a materialistic reductionist explanation out of the high hat but it just doesnt fit the available evidence that there's more than can be explained by the "brain produces consciousness" model.




This is an idea whose time has come. Science is finally catching up with mystical wisdom traditions. Veridical OBE's (out of body experiences in which one is verified to witness actual things and events in other rooms or from angles in the room they could not possibly have seen) are PROOF that there is a consciousness separate from the body and brain.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: Asante]
    #18741343 - 08/22/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Dreams also display that kind of time dilation effect, you think hours are going by but far less time is actually passing.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: psi]
    #18741347 - 08/22/13 09:21 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Dreams also display that kind of time dilation effect, you think hours are going by but far less time is actually passing.




Yes true!

It is speculated that both dreams and NDE's involve the release of DMT in the brain, and DMT also produces a time dilation effect when smoked.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18741574 - 08/22/13 10:07 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
That does absolutely nothing to explain patients recalling events taking place minutes after the heart stopped which they could have only seen from unusual angles, which have been verified. Nor does an eight fold activity in rat brains for several seconds explain people coming back with many days worth of experience.

Theres a case of a patient describing in detail what was said and which, to them unknown, instruments were used in a brain surgery, with a flat ECG, with a flat EEG, with their eyes taped shut and their ears enclosed with clicking devices to register auditory reflexes making it impossible to hear, and who was deeply hypothermic with all blood drained from the brain..  In that case there was no brain activity, there were no available senses, there was no blood in the brain at all.

Also,

Quote:

Dr. Chris Chambers, senior research fellow at Cardiff University, admitted it was tempting to draw a link between a surge of neural activity and consciousness but there are two barriers to doing so.

      “The first is that we don’t know to what extent rats experience consciousness at all, so we don’t know what the activity means. 

  “Second, even if rats are conscious, to conclude from their brain activity alone that these bursts of activity reflect consciousness would be a logical fallacy known as reverse inference.

  “To overcome these limitations we would need to run a study in humans and relate the changes in activity to what they report about their conscious experience.”




Superficially its easy to pull a materialistic reductionist explanation out of the high hat but it just doesnt fit the available evidence that there's more than can be explained by the "brain produces consciousness" model.




This is an idea whose time has come. Science is finally catching up with mystical wisdom traditions. Veridical OBE's (out of body experiences in which one is verified to witness actual things and events in other rooms or from angles in the room they could not possibly have seen) are PROOF that there is a consciousness separate from the body and brain.




What evidence is there that proves "veridical OBE's" are taking place?


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: qman]
    #18741593 - 08/22/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Its anecdotel. That's why I don't believe it. Like God and his side effects


--------------------
Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this.

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free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.

no stamps atm

FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA  members ONLY

I have these seeds:
Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: qman]
    #18741599 - 08/22/13 10:11 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
That does absolutely nothing to explain patients recalling events taking place minutes after the heart stopped which they could have only seen from unusual angles, which have been verified. Nor does an eight fold activity in rat brains for several seconds explain people coming back with many days worth of experience.

Theres a case of a patient describing in detail what was said and which, to them unknown, instruments were used in a brain surgery, with a flat ECG, with a flat EEG, with their eyes taped shut and their ears enclosed with clicking devices to register auditory reflexes making it impossible to hear, and who was deeply hypothermic with all blood drained from the brain..  In that case there was no brain activity, there were no available senses, there was no blood in the brain at all.

Also,

Quote:

Dr. Chris Chambers, senior research fellow at Cardiff University, admitted it was tempting to draw a link between a surge of neural activity and consciousness but there are two barriers to doing so.

      “The first is that we don’t know to what extent rats experience consciousness at all, so we don’t know what the activity means. 

  “Second, even if rats are conscious, to conclude from their brain activity alone that these bursts of activity reflect consciousness would be a logical fallacy known as reverse inference.

  “To overcome these limitations we would need to run a study in humans and relate the changes in activity to what they report about their conscious experience.”




Superficially its easy to pull a materialistic reductionist explanation out of the high hat but it just doesnt fit the available evidence that there's more than can be explained by the "brain produces consciousness" model.




This is an idea whose time has come. Science is finally catching up with mystical wisdom traditions. Veridical OBE's (out of body experiences in which one is verified to witness actual things and events in other rooms or from angles in the room they could not possibly have seen) are PROOF that there is a consciousness separate from the body and brain.




What evidence is there that proves "veridical OBE's" are taking place?




well, it sounds like the book Wiccan Seeker mentioned in the OP talks about it, and I have read in numerous other sources the same thing, although I don't have any saved on hand. Maybe research it yourself and see what you can find!

He mentioned already the case of the woman knowing what surgical implements were used in her surgery despite having her eyes closed and being flatlined etc. I have heard many similar stories on many occasions.

In fact, the whole reason they no longer use ketamine for human surgical anaesthetic is because it so often caused people to have out of body experiences and witness their own surgery from a third person, which understandably freaked them out, so they stopped using it even though it was so safe and effective!


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Invisibleunknown1123
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: Asante]
    #18741646 - 08/22/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
That does absolutely nothing to explain patients recalling events taking place minutes after the heart stopped which they could have only seen from unusual angles, which have been verified. Nor does an eight fold activity in rat brains for several seconds explain people coming back with many days worth of experience.

Theres a case of a patient describing in detail what was said and which, to them unknown, instruments were used in a brain surgery, with a flat ECG, with a flat EEG, with their eyes taped shut and their ears enclosed with clicking devices to register auditory reflexes making it impossible to hear, and who was deeply hypothermic with all blood drained from the brain..  In that case there was no brain activity, there were no available senses, there was no blood in the brain at all.

Also,

Quote:

Dr. Chris Chambers, senior research fellow at Cardiff University, admitted it was tempting to draw a link between a surge of neural activity and consciousness but there are two barriers to doing so.

      “The first is that we don’t know to what extent rats experience consciousness at all, so we don’t know what the activity means. 

  “Second, even if rats are conscious, to conclude from their brain activity alone that these bursts of activity reflect consciousness would be a logical fallacy known as reverse inference.

  “To overcome these limitations we would need to run a study in humans and relate the changes in activity to what they report about their conscious experience.”




Superficially its easy to pull a materialistic reductionist explanation out of the high hat but it just doesnt fit the available evidence that there's more than can be explained by the "brain produces consciousness" model.



Actually it does. If the brain lights up with serious electrical activity, it could activate different parts of the brain that controls memory and senses IE: hippocampus. Since our brain and pretty much whole nervous system uses a collection of electrical pulses, this spiked activity could do anything... People just want to believe their meaningless lives don't cease to exist after they die, thus religion is born :cookiemonster:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: unknown1123]
    #18741684 - 08/22/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

unknown1123 said:
Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
That does absolutely nothing to explain patients recalling events taking place minutes after the heart stopped which they could have only seen from unusual angles, which have been verified. Nor does an eight fold activity in rat brains for several seconds explain people coming back with many days worth of experience.

Theres a case of a patient describing in detail what was said and which, to them unknown, instruments were used in a brain surgery, with a flat ECG, with a flat EEG, with their eyes taped shut and their ears enclosed with clicking devices to register auditory reflexes making it impossible to hear, and who was deeply hypothermic with all blood drained from the brain..  In that case there was no brain activity, there were no available senses, there was no blood in the brain at all.

Also,

Quote:

Dr. Chris Chambers, senior research fellow at Cardiff University, admitted it was tempting to draw a link between a surge of neural activity and consciousness but there are two barriers to doing so.

      “The first is that we don’t know to what extent rats experience consciousness at all, so we don’t know what the activity means. 

  “Second, even if rats are conscious, to conclude from their brain activity alone that these bursts of activity reflect consciousness would be a logical fallacy known as reverse inference.

  “To overcome these limitations we would need to run a study in humans and relate the changes in activity to what they report about their conscious experience.”




Superficially its easy to pull a materialistic reductionist explanation out of the high hat but it just doesnt fit the available evidence that there's more than can be explained by the "brain produces consciousness" model.



Actually it does. If the brain lights up with serious electrical activity, it could activate different parts of the brain that controls memory and senses IE: hippocampus. Since our brain and pretty much whole nervous system uses a collection of electrical pulses, this spiked activity could do anything... People just want to believe their meaningless lives don't cease to exist after they die, thus religion is born :cookiemonster:




The way I see it if you want to know whats in the deep ocean, you ask a deep sea diver.

When you want to know what its like on the moon, you ask an astronaut.

If you want to know about someplace, you ask the people who have been there.

For the first time in history, huge numbers of people are dying and being resurrected with medical technology.

For the first time, what happens after death is no longer a mystery, because large numbers of people are coming back to tell us what they experienced.

What they experience, in thousands of documented cases, is some kind of an afterlife experience.

Why should I, who have never died, doubt the stories of those who have? They are the experts on this subject, and they report an afterlife experience.

Even if there is an electrical or physical explanation for this state (and its not clear that there is) so what?

Life itself is an electrical phenomenon, but that doesnt mean we say our lives are not real. So those near death experiences are equally real, even if they are the result of brain activity. The comforting thing is that when we die we will probably have some kind of a dream-near death experience- hallucination-whatever you want to call it.

Against all expectation, there is a dream, which can last for days or longer subjectively, comes to us after we flatline.

To me that is very good news, even if some physical explanation does exist, and again, thats not at all clear.

Doctor Rupert Sheldrake is a famous harvard educated british scientist who has done excellent scientific work proving that the materialist worldview is false and that things such as telepathy, species consciousness, out of body experiences, and life after death can be scientifically understood and are plausible.

I highly recommend listening to his speeches or reading his books. The fantastic podcast london real has a great interview with him, and he shows that its not necessarily unscientific to believe in these kinds of phenomenon.


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Invisibleunknown1123
Experimental

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 5,813
Re: Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18741728 - 08/22/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I'd rather not waste my time researching something that is inevitable. It's like studying for a test that's on your birth date, you know your birth date and the test is going to come, so there's no reason to study it. It's a no brain'er haha pun intended

:cheers:


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