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Anonymous
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america's ties to evil regimes around the world.
#1873711 - 09/02/03 09:02 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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i've heard people say this alot, but never anything specific.
i've heard a little about this sort of thing... mostly cold war meddlings... but no real modern ties to 'evil regimes'. maybe it's the corporate media brainwashing me...
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: ]
#1873771 - 09/02/03 09:50 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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'cold war meddlings'?
millions of dead would be sad to hear you trivialize their lives in such a manner.
chile argentina nicuaragua indonesia china israel
those are just the ones off the top of me noggin....
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1873785 - 09/02/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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who could forget turkey. one of our largest arms clients. most of those arms were knowingly used to exterminate the kurds. but damn, we're happy to have them help us dethrone a man vilified for no less than the same atrocities... edit: I should note a distinction, some of these are evil regimes that we have ties to, some are evil regimes that we put in place after ousting otherwise democratically elected governments as in the case of chile and argentina.
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Edited by afoaf (09/02/03 10:08 AM)
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Ped
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1873828 - 09/02/03 10:31 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Saddam's regime was installed, armed, disarmed, and uninstalled by none other than the United States of America. The Shah in Iran as well, I believe. Osama's funding and training came from the USA to fight Soviets. Hell, that's just the Middle East. Have a look at South America too.
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Xlea321
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Ped]
#1873844 - 09/02/03 10:46 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good book on this is "A problem from hell, America and the age of Genocide" by Samantha Power.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Rhizoid
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: ]
#1873853 - 09/02/03 10:51 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
but no real modern ties to 'evil regimes'.
If by "modern" you mean post-cold war, then none of the classic examples apply of those fascist regimes that the U.S. supported only because they were anti-communist.
The worst modern examples I can think of are Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Turkey and Israel could be candidates also, but they aren't that bad compared to many of their neighbours.
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Anonymous
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Rhizoid]
#1873877 - 09/02/03 11:08 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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again, rhizoid comes through with a fair and accurate answer.
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Anonymous
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Ped]
#1873878 - 09/02/03 11:09 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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america did not install either hussein or the shah.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Rhizoid]
#1873949 - 09/02/03 11:44 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Indonesia?
Nicaragua?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: ]
#1873959 - 09/02/03 11:51 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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directly installed, no.
but the us hasn't directly installed anyone, technically.
indirectly and covertly supported via cia and other agencies, most definitely.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1873974 - 09/02/03 11:59 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you not see a big difference between that and claiming that the US has gone to war to install all of these 'evil' regimes?
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Anonymous
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1873978 - 09/02/03 12:02 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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in the case of iraq and iran, not even that.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874417 - 09/02/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you not see a big difference between that and claiming that the US has gone to war to install all of these 'evil' regimes?
It's very rare that you need to "go to war" to install a regime. Massive amounts of money, arms and economic support can work wonders. Would Saddam have lasted decades with no american support?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1874433 - 09/02/03 02:34 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Who knows Alex. I don't know if he would have been able to beat Iran on his own or not. At that point Saddam was seen as the lesser of two evils. We did not know he was going to turn into a freak. I think this can be said for most of the actions the US has taken over the years. It is usually the lesser of two evils. Sometimes it works out well, and sometimes it doesn't.
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silversoul7
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874449 - 09/02/03 02:40 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: Who knows Alex. I don't know if he would have been able to beat Iran on his own or not. At that point Saddam was seen as the lesser of two evils. We did not know he was going to turn into a freak.
He never "turned into" a freak. He was a monster all along, and we knew it from the get-go. We just went to war with him when it became no longer convenient to have him on our side.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Xlea321
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874460 - 09/02/03 02:43 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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It is usually the lesser of two evils.
It's usually whichever evil is more likely to obey washington. If Saddam had kept obeying Washington while slaughtering and gassing do you seriously doubt he would still be in power today?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1874469 - 09/02/03 02:46 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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If he had obeyed the UN, he wouldn't have had anything to gas anyone with anyway. I am not saying the US does these things out of the goodness of our hearts. I agree with your assessment. We look out for our own interests like most countries.
I also think this practice will not happen as much as it used to, specifically during the Cold War. We are learning that the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
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Anonymous
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874475 - 09/02/03 02:47 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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shakta i think you need to get some of your facts straight. they're gonna jump on you for this one... "If he had obeyed the UN, he wouldn't have had anything to gas anyone with anyway."
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: ]
#1874482 - 09/02/03 02:49 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was being a smart ass. Had he let the inspectors DO THEIR JOBS COMPLETELY, and gotten rid of his weapons, and proved it, he would not be in the position he is now. So I was showing Alex how his argument was flawed. I was responding to Alex's question. I am not saying he never would have had the weapons to begin with.
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Anonymous
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874486 - 09/02/03 02:50 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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oook
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: ]
#1874490 - 09/02/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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What part of that do you disagree with? If it is wrong, it is wrong. It would not be the first or the last time I am wrong.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874493 - 09/02/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was responding to Alex's question No, you misunderstood. I'm talking about not invading Kuwait. Remember he was already gassing and slaughtering in 1988. Can't remember any calls for regime change then - because he was obeying Washington.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1874500 - 09/02/03 02:53 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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that's around when they were starting to get fed up with him. gassing the kurds was one of the reasons.
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Xlea321
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: ]
#1874508 - 09/02/03 02:55 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I thought the Bush administration defended Saddam by suggesting the Iranians were responsible? And then offered Saddam a billion dollar loan in 1989?
Funny way of showing someone you're fed up with them.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1874514 - 09/02/03 02:57 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree with you Alex. Personally, I think the world should remove any dictator that has no problem with killing his own people in mass amounts. Had he not invaded Kuwait the UN never would have agreed to go to war in the first war.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1874520 - 09/02/03 02:58 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't know the answer to that Alex. I am not that clear with the events before the first war.
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Anonymous
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874545 - 09/02/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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"US Congress passes legislation denying benefits of agricultural promotion programs to countries that violate human rights, acquire weapons of mass destruction, support international terrorism, or refuse to abide by the 1925 gas warfare treaty. Bill curtails US agricultural export credits to Iraq valued at $1 billion annually." that was july 27, 1990. iraq timeline. if you've got facts to share alex, please do... i'm not totally familiar with the events preceeding the war either.
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874548 - 09/02/03 03:06 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you not see a big difference between that and claiming that the US has gone to war to install all of these 'evil' regimes?
you are incredibly adept at putting words into people's mouth.
where did I or any other claim "that the US has gone to war to install all of these 'evil' regimes"
the original topic was "america's ties to evil regimes".
It is usually the lesser of two evils. Sometimes it works out well, and sometimes it doesn't.
that is wrong in so many ways it hurts.
in chile, the only other evil was a democratically elected socialist government.
in argentina, the same.
in ecuador it was a proposed tax on United Fruit's bananas.
again, sometimes, when looking at the globe, it seems we've ruined more democracies than we've helped build.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1874562 - 09/02/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was not saying you said that at all. It just is made to seem that way to me sometimes. Read the word USUALLY again.
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874572 - 09/02/03 03:10 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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usually:
Commonly encountered, experienced, or observed: the usual summer heat.
Regularly or customarily used: ended the speech with the usual expressions of thanks.
In conformity with regular practice or procedure: Come at the usual time.
in short, most of the time.
I'm asserting that most of the time, you're wrong.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1874584 - 09/02/03 03:12 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Assert whatever you want. I don't really care. You are wrong. The majority of the things this country has been invovled in were seen as the lesser of two evils, when neither side was particularly appealing.
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874603 - 09/02/03 03:18 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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like?
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1874628 - 09/02/03 03:25 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Iraq Iran Afghanistan
The other actions this country have been involved in were to protect our interests. Do you have any info about the banana thing in Ecuador? I can't find anything.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874634 - 09/02/03 03:26 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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The majority of the things this country has been invovled in were seen as the lesser of two evils, when neither side was particularly appealing.
So what was the deal with Indonesia's US approved genocidal rampage in East Timor?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874635 - 09/02/03 03:26 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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i don't think that 'protecting our interests' is a viable reason to use force unless those interests are clear and verifiable security interests.
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Xlea321
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874638 - 09/02/03 03:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Afghanistan
Hang on, what exactly do you think happened in Afghanistan?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874639 - 09/02/03 03:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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One more thing. When I said it is the lesser of two evils that is assuming that neither option is that great. In cases like Germany, and Japan, the regime that replaced the previous ones were definately a better thing.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1874645 - 09/02/03 03:29 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pay attention Alex. That was an example of the US siding with what was percieved as the lesser of two evils at the time. The same could be said about Iraq.
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874646 - 09/02/03 03:30 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q="united+fruit"+%2B+ecuador+%2B+us
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/502/502p19.htm
they don't go into the ties between the armed thugs, united fruit and its political ties in DC or the CIA, but it's a brief description of the strife and unrest unleashed on ecuador when workers sought what was legally theirs.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: ]
#1874650 - 09/02/03 03:31 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: i don't think that 'protecting our interests' is a viable reason to use force unless those interests are clear and verifiable security interests.
This argument is so confusing. We should start two threads. One were force has actually been used, and one were it has not. Then we can move onto the disgressions of countries like France, Russia, and Britian if anyone is interested.
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Xlea321
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874660 - 09/02/03 03:33 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pay attention Alex Say something worthwhile then That was an example of the US siding with what was percieved as the lesser of two evils at the time No, it had nothing to do with that. It was supporting maniacs like Osama Bin Laden in the hope of bogging Russia down in it's own Vietnam. Nothing to do with "the lesser of two evils" whatsoever. Without US support there would have been no war. That would have been the best solution for the Afghan people.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1874669 - 09/02/03 03:36 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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While this is definately sad, I think that it is a poor example on your list without further evidence.
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874675 - 09/02/03 03:37 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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heh.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1874684 - 09/02/03 03:39 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Alright Alex. Having the Russians control Afghanistan, or the Afghanis were the choices. We did not know that they were fucking nuts that would turn around later on and try to kill us. Like I mentioned earlier, this type of thing will definately be thought out better in the future. The practice of giving weapons to your enemies enemy is a bad one. That enemy may become your enemy 20 years later.
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1874808 - 09/02/03 04:14 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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in the case of afghanistan, were we forced to make either choice?
what interests were we protecting.
(/me smells the domino theory...)
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Phred
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: afoaf]
#1874880 - 09/02/03 04:35 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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In the case of the USSR's occupation of Afghanistan, no -- the US was not forced to make a choice. However, the US was just one out of many, MANY countries supplying aid to the Afghanis who were fighting the Soviets. Interesting how no one ever criticizes any of those other countries -- just the US.
pinky
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Xochitl
synchronicitycircuit
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Phred]
#1875063 - 09/02/03 05:37 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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The reason for such scruntiny has to do with Sept. 11th and the Al Queda-CIA connection. That's why pinksharkmark. It is quite telling when a regime's trained thugs attack the hand that once fed and nurtured them. Also, what were the degrees of support among these supposed nations that you mention? I personally have no idea, but if I was a betting man, I'd put my money on the US/CIA unloading the highest amount of funding/training/guidance.
-------------------- As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know. -Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon
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afoaf
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Phred]
#1875284 - 09/02/03 06:58 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Interesting how no one ever criticizes any of those other countries -- just the US.
well, Afghanistan wasn't one of my primary citations, but I would be interested, just as Xochitl, to see what other countries were involved as well as their level of aid and, of course, their historical record of manhandling national politics in countries far flung from their own borders.
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Xlea321
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1876220 - 09/02/03 11:43 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Having the Russians control Afghanistan, or the Afghanis were the choices. So what? Why would the US have to do anything? The russians would simply have supported a puppet afghan government against the destabilising tactics of the CIA. You're probably not aware of the CIA's activity in Afghanistan before the soviet invasion but it's worth checking out. The US have been installing puppet governments throughout the world for decades. Not exactly something they can complain about is it. They've installed a puppet government in Afghanistan - do you think the russians are justified in funding Bin Laden to attack americans? They're installing a western puppet government in Iraq, do you think the russians are justified in arming the Iraqi's? What justification did the US have for arming Bin laden and his ilk?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Cornholio
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1876255 - 09/02/03 11:58 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: It is usually the lesser of two evils.
You know, I think this is why there is such a big debate. Conservatives argue that supporting the lesser of two evils is a good thing. Liberals argue that supporting anything evil is a bad thing. Both arguments have merit (in my opinion).
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Xlea321
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Cornholio]
#1876263 - 09/03/03 12:03 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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What about when you CREATE an evil tho? Without american backing is there any chance Bin laden and the boys would ever have attained any power in Afghanistan?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Rhizoid
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1876381 - 09/03/03 01:05 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
It was supporting maniacs like Osama Bin Laden in the hope of bogging Russia down in it's own Vietnam.
Usama bin Laden is only the last in a long line of arab terrorists. The PFLP carried out its first airplane hijacking in 1968, long before the communist coup in 1978 that was the cause of the Afghanistan wars. If those wars hadn't occurred, maybe there would be no Usama bin Laden problem now. But other islamist nuts would still be around, blowing up children all over the world.
In a way it was a brilliant idea, having muslim fanatics and communists fight each other rather than having both fight the free world. But it stopped working of course when the Soviet Union fell over and died.
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1876504 - 09/03/03 02:41 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Alex123 said: What about when you CREATE an evil tho? Without american backing is there any chance Bin laden and the boys would ever have attained any power in Afghanistan?
Well, I think that's the liberal argument. Why create/support something evil at all? I think the reason is that many westerners were brainwashed into believing that ANYTHING is better than Communism. That's probably why we were so eager to support Bin Laden. Was it better than not supporting him? I don't think so, but we can only guess what the situation in Afghanistan would be like now if we didn't support him.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xlea321]
#1876848 - 09/03/03 07:30 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I understand your point Alex. I agree with it somewhat. I think America has learned some lessons about the whole lesser of two evils concept. There is however, always going to be a certain degree of compromise in some situations.
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Xochitl
synchronicitycircuit
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Loc: the brainforest
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1877197 - 09/03/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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More bloody regimes and thugs around the world that the US government supported, funded, and is/was friendly with: the Colombian government and their death squads. Manuel Noriega Pinochet Indonesian genocidal dictator Suharto
-------------------- As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know. -Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: Xochitl]
#1877210 - 09/03/03 11:32 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Noriega? We got rid of him.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1877224 - 09/03/03 11:37 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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So? That was only after he quit playing ball with us.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: silversoul7]
#1877239 - 09/03/03 11:42 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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So, what did we do that was so horrible that involved Noriega before that.
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silversoul7
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1877244 - 09/03/03 11:43 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I believe(tho I'm not entirely sure) we were responsible for bringing him into power.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Xochitl
synchronicitycircuit
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1877332 - 09/03/03 12:17 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Noreiga had been on the CIA payroll since the late 1950s; he had a six-figure annual salary under Vice-President Bush while committing acts of murder, fraud, assassination, terrorism, and drug traffiking. He was trained at the School of Americas (aka School of Assassins or School of Dictators) in Fort Bening, Georgia. Noreiga routinely tortured and assassinated political dissidents. He participated in the assassination of democratically elected officials and used violence and fraud to rise to power. He enaged in public beheadings of Panamian citizens who disagreed with his regime. He smuggled massive amounts of cocaine on contra supply planes while under the watch of the CIA. That is until his opposition to the Sandinistas started to turn soft and he started showing signs of disobedience to the CIA/Bush Administration.
-------------------- As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know. -Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: silversoul7]
#1877338 - 09/03/03 12:18 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have not found anything that says we were responsible for bringing him to power. He was apparently on the CIA payroll for years though. It all seems to point back to Nicaragua and the scandal all that produced.
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shakta
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1877340 - 09/03/03 12:20 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I need to learn more about the whole Nicaraguan thing, that is for sure. I would like to find an UNBIASED book about the subject. Any suggestions, anyone?
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Xlea321
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1877444 - 09/03/03 12:59 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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He was apparently on the CIA payroll for years though So was Klaus Barbie the notorious nazi torturer and mass murderer. Did a lot of drug running for the CIA to help fund the coup in Bolivia. Nice bunch of guys...
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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silversoul7
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Re: america's ties to evil regimes around the world. [Re: shakta]
#1877499 - 09/03/03 01:16 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: I need to learn more about the whole Nicaraguan thing, that is for sure. I would like to find an UNBIASED book about the subject. Any suggestions, anyone?
Nothing is unbiased, I'm afraid. The next best thing to objectivity, tho, is credibility. I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions for books, tho.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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