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InvisibleTheShroomingAtheis
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Registered: 12/31/11
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Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific?
    #18736423 - 08/21/13 08:37 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Do different drugs(or lack thereof) that cause a placebo effect also cause a different placebo effect. For example if someone was given fake meth and then fake heroin(both iv) without ever having tried any drug before, but having knowledge of the effects of both, experience different fake effects?


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: TheShroomingAtheis]
    #18736445 - 08/21/13 08:47 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Your expectations would play a big role I would think, they certainly do even with active drugs. Check out "The Natural Mind" By Andrew Weil, it's about recreational drugs and he talks a lot about the placebo effect in that. "Health and Healing" also explores the placebo effect but focuses on various alternative medicine disciplines.


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Offlines240779
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: TheShroomingAtheis]
    #18736452 - 08/21/13 08:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sure if you injected someone with saline solution and told them it was heroin, a lot of people wouldn't feel shit. The placebo effect is overrated.


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Offlinedruqs
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: TheShroomingAtheis]
    #18736464 - 08/21/13 08:54 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i would think so, placebo effect is amazing.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: druqs]
    #18736487 - 08/21/13 09:03 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

One thing Weil argued in the books I mentioned is that a lot depends on the route of administration, with dramatic and invasive methods like injection producing a more pronounced placebo effect.


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Offlines240779
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: psi]
    #18736515 - 08/21/13 09:10 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What is the general synopsis of that book?


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: s240779]
    #18736551 - 08/21/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The Natural Mind basically explores drug use and addiction. It's probably been 10 years since I read it. Weil was one of the firs or the first to to a controlled study in the US where marijuana was administered to test subjects. He describes marijuana as an "active placebo" which is an interesting idea if controversial. Basically he's saying that some element of the perceived high is actually a learned response to physiological cues. Another thing he touches on is the difficulty of breaking addiction or lack thereof. An example he mentions is a study done on opiate addicted Vietnam vets who returned after the war, large numbers of whom apparently quit without much difficulty. Basically he argues that the change of scenery was enough more or less, they were no longer in the situations that they associated with drug use.


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InvisibleStygianKnight
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: s240779]
    #18736583 - 08/21/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Yes and no.
Frankly the placebo effect is hard to judge before the fact because it relies so much on internal variables.
Psi is right multiple studies have shown an increase in the effect as the treatment intensifies.  Two pills is better than one, a shot is better than a pill, etc.  Part of this may have to do with how much the doctor is perceived in believing.  "Take this, now go away" is less effective than "Lets get you prepped, I'll mix the injection..."

The effects are almost never as pronounced as a real drug, in Strassman's DMT tests he gave both DMT and a saline control in double blind conditions but after about 5 minutes everyone knew whether they got the drug or the blank.  Placebo is powerful for what it is, but it doesn't beat the actual drug in many cases.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: StygianKnight]
    #18736610 - 08/21/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

As someone else mentioned, expectation plays a huge role.

Across all types of drugs, outcome measures etc. you'll see a "placebo" effect.  Its almost always present on any and all type(s) of drug studies,


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleTheShroomingAtheis
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Re: Is drug-related placebo, drug-specific? [Re: badchad]
    #18737214 - 08/21/13 12:20 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I for example, when experimenting with edible weed, got "high" within the first second of ingesting it. It was the distinct weed high though. Obviously placebo but that was because I was anticipating these effects.

When smoking weed for the first time, it didn't hit me until after 5 minutes. During those I felt tipsy like from alcohol, because that was the only serious past drug experience I had.

I am wondering what someone's completely new to drugs experience would be.
:strokebeard:


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