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InvisibleAlexestalex
fallen angel
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Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 5,644
Loc: heart of the sun
Sudden realization
    #18733345 - 08/20/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I realized something quite odd during my mushroom trip that I wanted to share.

Everyone has an ego and your ego makes up who you are. It defines your interests, desires, is responsible for your perception of the world, and so forth.

With this in mind, ask yourself- who am I? What are my interests, ambitions, what do I like, what do I hate, and so forth. Then imagine if you were born as somebody else, say your next door neighbor, and your next door neighbor was you. Wouldn't your "next-door-neighbor" you be the same you that YOU are right now? Sorry if this is a kind of mindfuck, but bear with me. Wouldn't you "next-door neighbor you" have the same interests, desires, amibitions, perspective of life, etc that YOU have right now? Wouldn't your next door neighbor have the same, identical innermost thoughts that are so dear to you right now?

This kind of makes me question free will. For instance, say I was born as Albert Einstein (let's define being born as as meaning perceiving sentience from the body of), wouldn't I have lived the exact same life that he has lived now? Because my sentience would be a product of Albert Einstein's brain rather than the product of my own, current brain? Does this sort of make sense?

I feel like we often think that if we were born as somebody else (once again, meaning perceiving sentience from somebody else's body rather than your own), we'd be so different. I hear this all the time from comments like "wow, she's so pretty, if I was her I wouldn't be depressed." But my point is, if you were her, you'd be  in the exact same state as her because you would be her and "her" is simply what she is right now, and what she will always be regardless of "who" is "her".

Any thoughts or am I just spewing bs?

To use an analogy sort of, try reading this: Paul is an A+ student who is ambitious, successful, and happy. Ryan is a C- student who is depressed, unhappy, and slow. If Ryan was born as Paul and Paul as Ryan, would Paul still be an A+ student? Isn't Paul's attitude of life and his sentience exclusively a product of Paul's brain? Therefore if Paul is born as Ryan, he will be a C- student because he will no longer perceive the world as Paul but rather as Ryan. 

That little person behind your eyes- the one who thinks and makes decisions and decides how your body should move around is 100% a property of the body that it manifests itself in. Therefore, if you were born as somebody else, that "little person" would be someone completely different.

tl;dr: if you were your best friend, as in your perceived sentience from the body of your best friend, wouldn't you be the EXACT same person, both inside and out, that your best friend is right now? Because YOU would no longer be YOU, because YOU, right now, are YOUR brain and YOUR genetics and YOUR memories, but if YOU were your best friend, you'd be HIS brain and HIS genetics, and HIS MEMORIES, which would be 100% identical to who he is now.


--------------------

Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.


Edited by Alexestalex (08/20/13 07:16 PM)


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Offlinethelastoneleft
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Registered: 11/08/12
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Alexestalex]
    #18733359 - 08/20/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

your spewing bs noone has an ego.


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InvisibleK1ngSp4de
CHUT UP!!!
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Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Alexestalex]
    #18733439 - 08/20/13 06:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds about right, who we are is a combination of genetics and our individual experiences.


--------------------
                                    PC Repair and Troubleshooting Forum

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.
                                                - Thomas Jefferson

                    Si peccasse negamus fallimur et nulla est in nobis veritas.


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Offlinewindowlikcer
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Registered: 11/14/11
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Alexestalex]
    #18733626 - 08/20/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alexestalex said:
I realized something quite odd during my mushroom trip that I wanted to share.

Everyone has an ego and your ego makes up who you are. It defines your interests, desires, is responsible for your perception of the world, and so forth.

With this in mind, ask yourself- who am I? What are my interests, ambitions, what do I like, what do I hate, and so forth. Then imagine if you were born as somebody else, say your next door neighbor, and your next door neighbor was you. Wouldn't your "next-door-neighbor" you be the same you that YOU are right now? Sorry if this is a kind of mindfuck, but bear with me. Wouldn't you "next-door neighbor you" have the same interests, desires, amibitions, perspective of life, etc that YOU have right now? Wouldn't your next door neighbor have the same, identical innermost thoughts that are so dear to you right now?

This kind of makes me question free will. For instance, say I was born as Albert Einstein (let's define being born as as meaning perceiving sentience from the body of), wouldn't I have lived the exact same life that he has lived now? Because my sentience would be a product of Albert Einstein's brain rather than the product of my own, current brain? Does this sort of make sense?

I feel like we often think that if we were born as somebody else (once again, meaning perceiving sentience from somebody else's body rather than your own), we'd be so different. I hear this all the time from comments like "wow, she's so pretty, if I was her I wouldn't be depressed." But my point is, if you were her, you'd be  in the exact same state as her because you would be her and "her" is simply what she is right now, and what she will always be regardless of "who" is "her".

Any thoughts or am I just spewing bs?

To use an analogy sort of, try reading this: Paul is an A+ student who is ambitious, successful, and happy. Ryan is a C- student who is depressed, unhappy, and slow. If Ryan was born as Paul and Paul as Ryan, would Paul still be an A+ student? Isn't Paul's attitude of life and his sentience exclusively a product of Paul's brain? Therefore if Paul is born as Ryan, he will be a C- student because he will no longer perceive the world as Paul but rather as Ryan. 

That little person behind your eyes- the one who thinks and makes decisions and decides how your body should move around is 100% a property of the body that it manifests itself in. Therefore, if you were born as somebody else, that "little person" would be someone completely different.

tl;dr: if you were your best friend, as in your perceived sentience from the body of your best friend, wouldn't you be the EXACT same person, both inside and out, that your best friend is right now? Because YOU would no longer be YOU, because YOU, right now, are YOUR brain and YOUR genetics and YOUR memories, but if YOU were your best friend, you'd be HIS brain and HIS genetics, and HIS MEMORIES, which would be 100% identical to who he is now.




Yes I see what you are saying, but if you were them you wouldn't be you as them, you would just be them. They already are them. You imply an infinite multitude of selves. There would be "the little person behind your eyes", and then the "you" to be aware of that little person. But that "you" could only exist as the self reflection of yet another consciousness who was aware of that: and on and on into infinity.

Here is my take on the issue: there is only one self, and it is not. It is unmanifest and non-appearing. This is why we both know that if we opened up your head we would find no "little person" there. Because something non-physical cannot have any descriptive qualities, it cannot differ from one instance of itself to the next (this is why you run into the infinite selves problem I mentioned earlier: there would still need to be a second "you" to verify and contrast the "you" that is your best friend in order to have the knowledge that YOU were HIM). If the "little person" in both of us is non-descript and non-arising, that means it is the same in both you and I. Or better yet, there is no "you" vs. "I", but only self, and this self is non-arising.


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OfflineAgentchewy
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: windowlikcer]
    #18733718 - 08/20/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Your ego is the individual, your brain works parallel and communicates the two parts, one being the individual a d the other being the "details" or world


--------------------


If I knew the way, I would take you home.


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InvisibleAlexestalex
fallen angel
I'm a teapot User Gallery
Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 5,644
Loc: heart of the sun
Re: Sudden realization [Re: Agentchewy]
    #18733741 - 08/20/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Agentchewy said:
Your ego is the individual, your brain works parallel and communicates the two parts, one being the individual a d the other being the "details" or world




But doesn't the "individual" vary from body to body?

Let's say my name is Alex and your name is Chewy. If I perceived sentience from Chew's body (and you perceived sentience from my body), would I still have any association with my past self, aka Alex? I'd have Chewy's organs, Chewy's face, and so forth so why would my thoughts and perception have anything to do with Alex's?. I would no longer be Alex in any way, but rather I would be Chewy. I would have YOUR current interests, your current goals, your current achievements, etc, would I not? Wouldn't I be in the exact same position of life where YOU are now? Wouldn't the "me" you be identical to the "you" you right now?


--------------------

Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.


Edited by Alexestalex (08/20/13 07:10 PM)


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OfflineAgentchewy
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Alexestalex]
    #18733798 - 08/20/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

From the perspective that everything is "one" you and I are the same, I am experiencing you just not when you are experiencing you. The universe is a playful symbiosis,consciousnesses are shared in a way.

But this is just the recent DMT speaking right now.


--------------------


If I knew the way, I would take you home.


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OfflineDeathcore
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Registered: 06/08/13
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Agentchewy]
    #18733891 - 08/20/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

if hell dont exist  i dont care bout nothing else


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Offlinewindowlikcer
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Agentchewy]
    #18734315 - 08/20/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Agentchewy said:
Your ego is the individual, your brain works parallel and communicates the two parts, one being the individual a d the other being the "details" or world




Quote:

Agentchewy said:
Your ego is the individual, your brain works parallel and communicates the two parts, one being the individual a d the other being the "details" or world




The problem is that the "details" are always referring to the mind, though. You can examine any detail in the world and you will only be conscious of what you put there through reflection. The world is made up of details, and the details themselves are just mental reflections. We refer to objects as independently existing things, but in reality an object has no independent existence outside the mind. I think that one can intellectually understand this concept, but the point is to realize first there is no world outside the mind, and the mind itself is non. The problem is that, for instance, when this wisdom is revealed to someone during a psychedelic experience, the world eventually returns (which is how you begin talking and attempting to relate the experience). I know in my own personal experience, in a deep enough state of mental quietness the world does indeed disappear, and although its hard to piece together memories of a psychedelic experience, I have found that overwhelmingly the first thing I forget or seem to lose track of is that immediate realization that the normal, day-to-day world is a dream of the mind and completely unreal.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Alexestalex]
    #18734573 - 08/20/13 09:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alexestalex said:
Everyone has an ego and your ego makes up who you are. It defines your interests, desires, is responsible for your perception of the world, and so forth.




No, they don't, and no, it doesn't, and no, it isn't.

Sense/object, you/me, mine/yours - it's all an illusion you created out of nothing. :shrug:

:peace:PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
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OfflineDeathcore
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #18735152 - 08/20/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i like that..

"THATS MY MONEY!"

prove it..

Its "yours" because you said so?

THAN I SAY..ITS MINE...

no..its not..its mine..

HOW?

because i earned it...

NOO.. YOU DIDNT EARN SHIT.. YOU THINK YOU DID

(finger cranes the money and runs away)

im calling the pigs
(broke an artificial law so they are under a spell with their metal badge they choose to believe is power, so they come looking for me)


I swim across the ocean and make it to brazil

I WIN!

(i believe ive won)





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Offlinemisterjingo
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Deathcore]
    #18735453 - 08/21/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I've always taken the view that the core machinery which drives individual conscious experience is the same in all living things. Personality might colour the experience (driven by genetics and environmental factors), and other life forms might have different ways of interpreting conscious experience, but the spark that what we perceive to be "I" is the same. The alternative would be that there are a billion, billion possible forms of core sentiency - which, if we use Occam's Razor, seems unlikely.

So as someone said above, if you were someone else you would BE someone else. Their life experience and genetic predispositions would colour your experiences which are filtered by the conscious spark which makes you self aware.


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OfflineDeathcore
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: misterjingo]
    #18736455 - 08/21/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

well "I" wish "I" was never born


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Offlinetlien
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Re: Sudden realization [Re: Deathcore]
    #18736755 - 08/21/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You should speak with somebody IRL, Deathcore, anybody. I read your thread about your LSD trip, and you seem really distraught. Call a sibling or something..


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