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OfflineLysergicX7
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: nicechrisman]
    #18726802 - 08/19/13 09:58 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Ego dissolution is not a real state? Ummm.. im sorry, but obviously this makes no sense.

Ego death happens. Sometimes when you take mushrooms, sometimes after you almost die, whenever. But it does happen.

Your post is so contradictory.

Talk about love and then say "I hate all those smily empty headed beatniks who think because they are high and have no material goods that they are spiritual - closer to truth - or egoless. The most 'egoless' people I have ever talked to really get touchy when you question them."

Even though you can have ego death, it's not some permanent thing despite how all these people you "hate" so much think it is. Obviously, you aren't going to function very well in this world as "you" if you have no ego.


--------------------
“Everybody is fundamentally, the ultimate reality. Not god in the political kingly sense, but god in the sense of being the self – the deep down basic whatever there is. And you’re all that… only you’re pretending you’re not.” -Alan Watts

I think that in human evolution it has never been as necessary to have this substance LSD. It is just a tool to turn us into what we are supposed to be.”
― Albert Hofmann


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Offlineeve69
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: LysergicX7]
    #18726978 - 08/19/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I read everybodies' comments and I read many trip reports and the spiritual and visionary reports of people here and at Bluelight and the idiom 'ego death' has become a goal of many people.

But point out the ego in the first place.  Ego is not a thing with a form, unless it's our form. 

Rather, what people experience are greater/lesser states of awareness and various thought immersions. I have done my fair share of many drugs including acid about a hundred times and the other top delusionogens.  Good trips, great even, some with mystical stuff happening.  What I have experienced at times are profoundly deep joyous and loving spaces where I communed with nature and other people. 

Those spaces were of profound thought and feeling.  Maybe seperation between myself and others was diminished.  Maybe even no egoic ideation.  But at no time was there ever 'ego death.'

I object to the idiom's common place amongst trippers and spiritual beatniks.

I was taught by my Indian guru that when one gains a state of cosmic consciousness the ego doesn't shink but rather expands to encompass everything.


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: LysergicX7]
    #18727165 - 08/19/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LysergicX7 said:
Ego dissolution is not a real state? Ummm.. im sorry, but obviously this makes no sense.

Ego death happens. Sometimes when you take mushrooms, sometimes after you almost die, whenever. But it does happen.

Your post is so contradictory.

Talk about love and then say "I hate all those smily empty headed beatniks who think because they are high and have no material goods that they are spiritual - closer to truth - or egoless. The most 'egoless' people I have ever talked to really get touchy when you question them."

Even though you can have ego death, it's not some permanent thing despite how all these people you "hate" so much think it is. Obviously, you aren't going to function very well in this world as "you" if you have no ego.




 
I've been tripping for over 40 years, hundreds of trips and often with several people at a time and often on rather large doses.  I never saw someone behave like they had no ego.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSse
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Icelander]
    #18727284 - 08/19/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

"An ego death is said to be characterized as the perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment, a sense of the loss of "control", the loss of the accustomed feeling of existing as a "personal agent", and lose "cognitive-association binding".[1] This "perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment"[citation needed] is said to be experienced through a sensation that one is the whole universe (and therefore there is no need to differentiate the "I" from the "universe") or by simply acknowledging the "I" does not exist."


I wonder what that would look like


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlinehuffinglue
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: eve69]
    #18727286 - 08/19/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Your Indian guru was probably referring to understanding that you are the entire universe, therefor there is no reason for 'I', wich many people interperate as 'ego death'


--------------------
I fucking hate grammer nazis! Yes, I can't spell. Yes, I don't have perfect grammer. I post from my phone and dont give a shit about people whose lifes are so boring they get off on putting people down for not having perfect fucking grammer, even though they know excactly what there saying.. Fuck You. It's just a ride mang...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Sse]
    #18727493 - 08/19/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
"An ego death is said to be characterized as the perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment, a sense of the loss of "control", the loss of the accustomed feeling of existing as a "personal agent", and lose "cognitive-association binding".[1] This "perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment"[citation needed] is said to be experienced through a sensation that one is the whole universe (and therefore there is no need to differentiate the "I" from the "universe") or by simply acknowledging the "I" does not exist."


I wonder what that would look like


 

Well it's likely then everyone experiences "ego death" from time to time.  I have many times.  Yet I always knew there was a I in there somewhere.  Even if it's an illusion.  I'll bet everyone experiences everything uniquely.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOld Pokey
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Icelander] * 2
    #18727550 - 08/19/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I just love these semantic arguments; taking an experience that is almost by definition beyond words and bickering interminably about word choice.

Technically the "ego" is a concept in psychology/philosophy, not a proven aspect of consciousness. Much like the God/not god conversations, without clearly defined terms it's all hen cackle.


--------------------
It's all mythology...


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OfflineSse
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Old Pokey]
    #18727713 - 08/19/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Die before you die, and you shall never die.
-The Sufis


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineresonant111
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Old Pokey]
    #18727778 - 08/19/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

HERE IS MY ESSAY ON THIS: :grin:

let's just forget about the semantics and think of what happens to one's rigid self-identity during a psychedelic experience (or any powerful life experience for that matter.)

the catalyst in these reactions is always CHANGE. psychedelics almost force change upon you, instantaneously. so any rigid conception of who/what you imagine yourself to be is totally shattered--the rigid self-identity simply cannot keep up with all of the CHANGE going on around it. The individual may often experience total CONTRADICTION of self with regards to these changes...ie, things that the rigid self-identity has "repressed" or labeled as "not me" suddenly come to the surface to be experienced. this experience of self-contradiction can absolutely shatter one's rigid sense of identity because it FORCES you to experience your WHOLE ENTIRE BEING....not merely the parts you've handpicked or imagined yourself to be.

so what's really happening here is great change and temporary contradiction of one's imagined sense of self. the term "ego death" is kind of over-dramatic because nothing really dies, especially not permanently...it's just that temporarily you are forced to confront aspects of yourself that you aren't comfortable with in the first place. so it doesn't feel like "you." it's unfamiliar. so alot of people erronerously think "i've died, i'm never coming back!" when in reality, what's actually happening is just change...and that rigid sense of self simply cannot handle the contradiction of it all so it tries to cling to the old patterns.

the key of course, is to let go of the old idea of self DURING this process of change and contradiction. it is the difference between struggling against the ocean, and swimming WITH the current. if you are able to swim with the current you end up with a sense of complete and total PEACE AND FREEDOM from your rigid idea of self. the game is over...the joke was on *you* all along! there's no permanent idea of self to hold onto in the first place. *you* can be anything, anytime...so just be!

it is very possible to experience this same thing by simply doing things that are UNFAMILIAR or outside of one's general idea of self. anything that causes a great shock to your rigid sense of identity will spark this so-called "ego death" experience.

The real lesson of all this change is simple: the only way to truly grow as a person is to step outside of your limited "idea of yourself" as much as possible. To fully challenge your own idea of self. To bend it and twist it and experience so many different possibilities that you finally come to the only sane realization: THERE IS NO RIGID, STATIC PERMANENT "ME." I CAN BE ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. I *AM* CHANGE.

it's hard to put into practice though. that's why most of us stay trapped within our own ideas of who we are...rarely, if ever, seeing all the possibilities.


--------------------


Edited by resonant111 (08/21/13 11:20 AM)


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Offlinecbub
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: resonant111]
    #18728834 - 08/19/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

There may be a misconception of the term "ego-death".
No wonder, a death means a cessation of existence for us, but ego-death is more of a rebirth.
It's what the legend of the phoenix is talking about.

The new "I" prefers the new "I" to the old "I". I could write "ego" instead of "I", but "I" prefers english to latin, because that's what ego means and I can't see why all the fuss about the definition.
There is simply no existence in this experience without an "I" because then nobody would be having an experience.
Ego is therefor not only healthy, but absolutely necessary in order to even be able to wonder about itself, which is, by the way, about as effective as a fingertip trying to touch itself.
I can see why the ego-death experience people have an even stronger sense of "I", which makes it harder to break through to them. We have generally decided how things are, which makes us inevitably harder to convince of anything that goes against the paradigm that was infused into us. We are not in any way superior, but it is incredibly hard for us to watch the suffering of the people, because it would have been really cool if they just listened and believed and be relieved of suffering as they know it. But that's just not the way it works.
Therefor I not only understand your frustration, but also share it, for where the One is many, each one walks alone.


--------------------
It's fine.


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OfflineSse
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: cbub]
    #18728918 - 08/19/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineLysergicX7
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: eve69]
    #18728992 - 08/19/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I read everybodies' comments and I read many trip reports and the spiritual and visionary reports of people here and at Bluelight and the idiom 'ego death' has become a goal of many people.

But point out the ego in the first place.  Ego is not a thing with a form, unless it's our form. 

Rather, what people experience are greater/lesser states of awareness and various thought immersions. I have done my fair share of many drugs including acid about a hundred times and the other top delusionogens.  Good trips, great even, some with mystical stuff happening.  What I have experienced at times are profoundly deep joyous and loving spaces where I communed with nature and other people. 

Those spaces were of profound thought and feeling.  Maybe seperation between myself and others was diminished.  Maybe even no egoic ideation.  But at no time was there ever 'ego death.'

I object to the idiom's common place amongst trippers and spiritual beatniks.

I was taught by my Indian guru that when one gains a state of cosmic consciousness the ego doesn't shink but rather expands to encompass everything.



Then I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps you didn't take enough to get to those places, or perhaps it just isn't going to work for you. But I took roughly 5 grams of shrooms my first time, I literally dissolved completely. Ego dissolution is complete loss of seperation from self and other. The sensation that one is everything and vice versa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

The first line here on wiki says it best.


--------------------
“Everybody is fundamentally, the ultimate reality. Not god in the political kingly sense, but god in the sense of being the self – the deep down basic whatever there is. And you’re all that… only you’re pretending you’re not.” -Alan Watts

I think that in human evolution it has never been as necessary to have this substance LSD. It is just a tool to turn us into what we are supposed to be.”
― Albert Hofmann


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: eve69]
    #18731061 - 08/20/13 06:29 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
It's bullshit. There is nobody who has experienced ego death before death. It started as a statement about feeling loss of personal identity. I suggest this is more a feeling or thought thing, and not an ego thing.

I hate all those smily empty headed beatniks who think because they are high and have no material goods that they are spiritual - closer to truth - or egoless. The most 'egoless' people I have ever talked to really get touchy when you question them.

Enough already. Ego death is a travesty, a mere subjective blip, and not a real state, spiritual or otherwise.

The people who experience the closest thing to ego death are sociopaths and borderline personalities.

Why continue to promote this bullshit concept?

The spiritual experience is based in love.





Ego death is a real thing and can and does reveal deep spiritual truths to people. However, people confuse ego death with enlightenment and they are not the same thing. You are right that the spiritual path is based in love, not loss of identity.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: LysergicX7]
    #18731067 - 08/20/13 06:32 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LysergicX7 said:
Quote:

eve69 said:
I read everybodies' comments and I read many trip reports and the spiritual and visionary reports of people here and at Bluelight and the idiom 'ego death' has become a goal of many people.

But point out the ego in the first place.  Ego is not a thing with a form, unless it's our form. 

Rather, what people experience are greater/lesser states of awareness and various thought immersions. I have done my fair share of many drugs including acid about a hundred times and the other top delusionogens.  Good trips, great even, some with mystical stuff happening.  What I have experienced at times are profoundly deep joyous and loving spaces where I communed with nature and other people. 

Those spaces were of profound thought and feeling.  Maybe seperation between myself and others was diminished.  Maybe even no egoic ideation.  But at no time was there ever 'ego death.'

I object to the idiom's common place amongst trippers and spiritual beatniks.

I was taught by my Indian guru that when one gains a state of cosmic consciousness the ego doesn't shink but rather expands to encompass everything.



Then I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps you didn't take enough to get to those places, or perhaps it just isn't going to work for you. But I took roughly 5 grams of shrooms my first time, I literally dissolved completely. Ego dissolution is complete loss of seperation from self and other. The sensation that one is everything and vice versa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

The first line here on wiki says it best.




How do you do now?  Did you find your experience to give you greater sense of commonality or did you become more individualized?

I have found amongst strongly meditating communities that individualism becomes more intense. I think you'll find that people who experience either greater expansiveness or immersion in greater diversity creates ever more intense need to identify with something.

Also, regarding egodeath if there's any frame of reference, regardless of ones feelings then there is no ego death.

An ego death could occur if you were perhaps a shapeshifter.  If you don't come away with something then what happened?


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Icelander]
    #18731074 - 08/20/13 06:36 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

LysergicX7 said:
Ego dissolution is not a real state? Ummm.. im sorry, but obviously this makes no sense.

Ego death happens. Sometimes when you take mushrooms, sometimes after you almost die, whenever. But it does happen.

Your post is so contradictory.

Talk about love and then say "I hate all those smily empty headed beatniks who think because they are high and have no material goods that they are spiritual - closer to truth - or egoless. The most 'egoless' people I have ever talked to really get touchy when you question them."

Even though you can have ego death, it's not some permanent thing despite how all these people you "hate" so much think it is. Obviously, you aren't going to function very well in this world as "you" if you have no ego.




 
I've been tripping for over 40 years, hundreds of trips and often with several people at a time and often on rather large doses.  I never saw someone behave like they had no ego.




Some of your statements really baffle me. Then how would you know what someone without an ego would behave like? I have experienced ego death before and you certainly would have had no way of knowing it were you there. When I had an ego death on salvia for instance, I would not have been able to speak to you. My behavior would not have told you anything about my internal state, aside from the fact that I was simply elsewhere, not conscious of my body or physical surroundings.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Icelander]
    #18731078 - 08/20/13 06:41 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Sse said:
"An ego death is said to be characterized as the perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment, a sense of the loss of "control", the loss of the accustomed feeling of existing as a "personal agent", and lose "cognitive-association binding".[1] This "perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment"[citation needed] is said to be experienced through a sensation that one is the whole universe (and therefore there is no need to differentiate the "I" from the "universe") or by simply acknowledging the "I" does not exist."


I wonder what that would look like


 

Well it's likely then everyone experiences "ego death" from time to time.  I have many times.  Yet I always knew there was a I in there somewhere.  Even if it's an illusion.  I'll bet everyone experiences everything uniquely.




If you always knew there was an I, then you didn't go far enough. It is possible to go so far that you forget the I.

Immature spiritual seekers often confuse ego death and enlightenment however, I know that in my younger days I had a great deal of confusion over the subject. They are not the same thing.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: eve69]
    #18731086 - 08/20/13 06:46 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I read everybodies' comments and I read many trip reports and the spiritual and visionary reports of people here and at Bluelight and the idiom 'ego death' has become a goal of many people.

But point out the ego in the first place.  Ego is not a thing with a form, unless it's our form. 

Rather, what people experience are greater/lesser states of awareness and various thought immersions. I have done my fair share of many drugs including acid about a hundred times and the other top delusionogens.  Good trips, great even, some with mystical stuff happening.  What I have experienced at times are profoundly deep joyous and loving spaces where I communed with nature and other people. 

Those spaces were of profound thought and feeling.  Maybe seperation between myself and others was diminished.  Maybe even no egoic ideation.  But at no time was there ever 'ego death.'

I object to the idiom's common place amongst trippers and spiritual beatniks.




You can object to idioms all you want, but there is such a thing as ego death. Just because you havent experienced it, means nothing. The only drugs which I have had ego death on are cannabis and salvia. I have taken as much as 14 hits of acid and still not had ego death. Acid and shrooms just dont give me ego death and that is not uncommon. The trippers who dont experience ego death, will never be able to understand the ones who do.


Quote:


I was taught by my Indian guru that when one gains a state of cosmic consciousness the ego doesn't shink but rather expands to encompass everything.





So? Ego death is not the same thing as the states of consciousness indian gurus are talking about. The latter is far superior.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: eve69]
    #18731105 - 08/20/13 07:02 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
It's bullshit. There is nobody who has experienced ego death before death. It started as a statement about feeling loss of personal identity. I suggest this is more a feeling or thought thing, and not an ego thing.

I hate all those smily empty headed beatniks who think because they are high and have no material goods that they are spiritual - closer to truth - or egoless. The most 'egoless' people I have ever talked to really get touchy when you question them.

Enough already. Ego death is a travesty, a mere subjective blip, and not a real state, spiritual or otherwise.

The people who experience the closest thing to ego death are sociopaths and borderline personalities.

Why continue to promote this bullshit concept?


The spiritual experience is based in love.




Because:
(1) Ego-death IS the condition called the Clear Light in Buddhism, Fana in Sufism, or "having the mind of Christ" in Christianity, which is to say, being aware of one's identity as the Logos, not the personality. Therefore "bullshit," being an expression of falsehood, does not apply.

(2) The nature this luminous condition is experienced as the Christian agapé (disinterested love, versus eros, or philias), or as Compassion (Karuna) in Buddhism, as Ultimate Reality, not as a mere human-originated emotion. One must jettison the concept of mind as an epiphenomenon of the brain, even though it can remain an emergent property of a sophisticated brain (the brain does not arise independently of other systems. The Buddhist notion of dependent arisings applies).

(3) Whereas there is a very tenuous development of healthy ego-identity in Borderlines, it is true, (which is why many people with BPD are attracted to Buddhism, wrongly thinking that they are 'selfless'), this is not the case for Dissocial Personality Disordered people (formerly Antisocial Personality Disorder). In fact, ego-death results in humility, compassion, empathy, and sympathy, which in turn translates into behaviors of altruism, generosity, self-sacrifice, care and nurturance - not their selfish opposites in Dissocial individuals who take objects, pleasure in other's suffering, or very lives to satisfy inordinate and perverse desires.

(4) Understanding this is the province of those with spiritual maturity, not those "smiley empty headed beatniks. You may be confusing pot-head's euphoria with lucid-minded bliss. Ego-death is the result of having experienced, howsoever temporarily, a condition of effulgent decentered awareness, or omniscience, the Ultimate Ground of Being as one's True Nature, not the spacio-temporal process that we ordinarily experience ourselves as.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Deviate]
    #18731112 - 08/20/13 07:06 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Well let me rephrase to say whenever someone was talking when tripping.

I've been in that place where I forgot "I" on salvia especially. Still that means to me my egoic sense of self was not dead but inoperative.  Dead means gone, inoperative means not being used actively imo.  My objection has always been that distinction.  Especially the inexperienced tend to believe they have somehow overcome their ego after such and experience.  Rather they have had the experience of a not operative personality structure.  That makes a big difference in what they come away believing imo.  Many who believe they have killed their egos after such experiences then create and inflated image of themselves.  That's what I've noticed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I'm tired of this bullshit travesty called ego death. [Re: Icelander]
    #18731214 - 08/20/13 07:47 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well let me rephrase to say whenever someone was talking when tripping.

I've been in that place where I forgot "I" on salvia especially. Still that means to me my egoic sense of self was not dead but inoperative.  Dead means gone, inoperative means not being used actively imo.  My objection has always been that distinction.  Especially the inexperienced tend to believe they have somehow overcome their ego after such and experience.  Rather they have had the experience of a not operative personality structure.  That makes a big difference in what they come away believing imo.  Many who believe they have killed their egos after such experiences then create and inflated image of themselves.  That's what I've noticed.




Exactly, that is why I said ego death is not the same as enlightenment. One can have an ego death experience and then return to egoic existence, whereas enlightenment is permanent.

Another difference, is that one can be in a state of ego death but completely unable to function in the world. This is different from the final state of God-realization, in which one is able to function in the world.


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