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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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pronoia, paranoia
    #18730648 - 08/20/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Although it doesn't get discussed much, there is another side to the coin of delusion than paranoia-- pronoia, the irrational belief that vast conspiracies have been aligned to do you good, that people have good things planned for you, that they are praising you behind your back.

Although I always figured pronoia must be a good thing, more recently it occurred that it's actually no better in theory. The notion is very appealing if you're an optimist, but shouldn't actually any more practical for social or survival purposes. That said, I think a lot of people deemed psychologically healthy probably suffer from extreme pronoid delusions which simply do not pose the same impracticality in our modern life as their paranoid counterparts.

Do you think that pronoia is "good" compared to paranoia which is "bad"? Do you think there is such a thing as a pronoid schizophrenic? Do pronoia and paranoia overlap, or are they unrelated except in theory? Do you think that in times of scarcity, paranoia might overtake pronoia as the more practical/adaptive form of delusion, leading to the quarantine in asylums of people crazy enough to think that everything is great and only getting better?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (08/20/13 01:15 AM)


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18730660 - 08/20/13 01:16 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I want to read that book by Rob Brezsny so badly! Interesting website he has and the scopes are very different from the other ones I have read. I like the idea of what he says, fun stuff!


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18730665 - 08/20/13 01:21 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

So you're not doing all of this for my benefit?...
What do you think about the saying 'A little healthy paranoia'? Thats to say, I think both of these exist in all of our minds. Consensus reality is in a lot of ways a sham, what matters more is how you perceive things. I think it really does come down to optimism vs pessimism. Or religion. If you believe everything is coming up milhouse, well- prayer or luck or simple life perception editing- things tend to go that way for you.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Lynnch]
    #18730677 - 08/20/13 01:31 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
If you believe everything is coming up milhouse, well- prayer or luck or simple life perception editing- things tend to go that way for you.




I wonder how much that is always true, though. Obviously pronoia is beneficial in this time of abundance-- I don't think anyone here on the Shroomery is starving (unless it's self-imposed via some type of drug frenzy). But imagine the times when food was scarce-- to believe everything was coming up milhouse, so to speak, was utter madness, and the lack of motivation felt in that condition could be seriously harmful to a community struggling to live day-by-day.

If you've ever met a schizophrenic person, did they seem happy to you? IME mentally ill people are always very, very unhappy for one reason or another.

Think of outdated stereotypes of crazy people-- they're always grinning wildly, laughing maniacally. Think of the Joker. It makes me wonder.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18730690 - 08/20/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

all I know is I could use a little more Pronoia


life is confusing :awesome:


too much of either would definitely be bad

on one hand, you would feel as if everything Is taken care of, that you do not need to strive or challenge yourself for good things to happen.


on the other, you will constantly try to seek others' approval, forever worrying of consequences and unforeseen outcomes


--------------------
:wizard::deemsters:


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Lynnch]
    #18730696 - 08/20/13 01:41 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
What do you think about the saying 'A little healthy paranoia'?




I dont think paranoia is ever healthy. "A little healthy anxiety" might be a better quote.


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: NWlight]
    #18730702 - 08/20/13 01:43 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I see your point, but what about the perseverance to keep climbing over a frozen pass, or walking thru the desert? Sure it may be crazy, but the one that believes water is just over the hill is the one that survives- not the one that gives up.

Even paranoid schitzos have enemies.  :strokebeard:

Interesting stuff, sorry I'm passing out..


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Offlineteamkiller
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Lynnch]
    #18730708 - 08/20/13 01:47 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

i've met a bunch of pronoid people.  Thats a normal type of skitzophrenia i believe.


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: teamkiller]
    #18730717 - 08/20/13 01:56 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

pronoid people probably walk around thinking there are presents everywhere


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Offlineteamkiller
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #18730727 - 08/20/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

its a subset of grandiose delusions i believe. grandiose delusions being the 2nd most common type in skitzophrenic people, but i dunno what portion of that is pronoia.

I would imagine people with pronoia would have alot easier time staying out of mental institutions but i dunno.  Most of the people i've met in real life who thinks everything in life is set up for their benefit managed to stay out of trouble.


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Offlineteamkiller
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: teamkiller]
    #18730728 - 08/20/13 02:07 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

oh, p.s.  severe narcissism might be along the same lines as pronoia


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: teamkiller]
    #18733343 - 08/20/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

teamkiller said:
oh, p.s.  severe narcissism might be along the same lines as pronoia




Apparently narcissism is highly desirable in the business world.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 2
    #18733566 - 08/20/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Life is all about moderation. To label any particular thing as good or bad is merely a reflection of the narrator. This extends to mind-states as well. Everything just is



:taco:


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18733574 - 08/20/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I've had a few pretty heavy pronoia trips on psychedelics before where I start thinking that everything is just a big act that is being put on for my amusement. Can be a little dangerous because one doesn't want to say the wrong thing to the wrong person or walk out in front of a moving car or something. Or believing that the police aren't real, etc.

It's pretty damn fun though as long as you can maintain.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


Edited by nicechrisman (08/20/13 06:39 PM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #18733584 - 08/20/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

:thatsayes:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: nicechrisman]
    #18733621 - 08/20/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
I've had a few pretty heavy pronoia trips on psychedelics before where I start thinking that everything is just a big act that is being put on for me amusement. Can be a little dangerous because one doesn't want to say the wrong thing to the wrong person or walk out in front of a moving car or something. Or believing that the police aren't real, etc.

It's pretty damn fun though as long as you can maintain.




I had amphetamine psychosis after a bit of overindulgence a while ago. This was what initially got me to thinking about pronoia (as a psychological concept, because the classical/mystical concept is a different thing). I heard the voices of several people I knew talking about me, as if they were in the room with me or they were projecting their thoughts into my mind. The psychosis began when I stopped believing their were imaginary, when they began describing my every movement to the tee, even as I was alone.

Their "mood" would oscillate between pronoia and paranoia. In the pronoiac state, they were supportive of me; they were trying to solve my problems for me and they loved me dearly. But this eventually violated my sense of self-determination, because they weren't allowing me any imperfections or mistakes. I began to feel alienated, and they became hostile, jeering, tearing me down. At first I was crushed, but when I stopped reacting emotionally to their attacks, they returned to the cloyingly congratulatory mood of pronoia, and the cycle would just go on like that.

I don't recommend it, for the record. :methisgood:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18733628 - 08/20/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

amphetamine psychosis is really something


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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InvisibleRockyRaccoon
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18733650 - 08/20/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Although it doesn't get discussed much, there is another side to the coin of delusion than paranoia-- pronoia, the irrational belief that vast conspiracies have been aligned to do you good, that people have good things planned for you, that they are praising you behind your back.

Although I always figured pronoia must be a good thing, more recently it occurred that it's actually no better in theory. The notion is very appealing if you're an optimist, but shouldn't actually any more practical for social or survival purposes. That said, I think a lot of people deemed psychologically healthy probably suffer from extreme pronoid delusions which simply do not pose the same impracticality in our modern life as their paranoid counterparts.

Do you think that pronoia is "good" compared to paranoia which is "bad"? Do you think there is such a thing as a pronoid schizophrenic? Do pronoia and paranoia overlap, or are they unrelated except in theory? Do you think that in times of scarcity, paranoia might overtake pronoia as the more practical/adaptive form of delusion, leading to the quarantine in asylums of people crazy enough to think that everything is great and only getting better?




This is very thought provoking.
:themoreyouknow: I've never heard of pronoia.
I think that extreme pronoia is even more dangerous than extreme paranoia. Thinking that there is an intricate conspiracy designed to do you good is bound to lead to risky and dangerous behavior.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: RockyRaccoon]
    #18733683 - 08/20/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's interesting that teamkiller made the connection to narcissism, because narcissism is well-valued in the business world. It could be that in this time of tremendous surplus, pronoiac states enable "good humor" and "confidence" that would in times of scarcity amount to dereliction of responsibility and a total lack of realism.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleRockyRaccoon
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18733751 - 08/20/13 07:10 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I think it's interesting that teamkiller made the connection to narcissism, because narcissism is well-valued in the business world. It could be that in this time of tremendous surplus, pronoiac states enable "good humor" and "confidence" that would in times of scarcity amount to dereliction of responsibility and a total lack of realism.




That is an interesting connection. Part of me see's a direct connection between the two, but another part of me is thinking: If people think that there is a large conspiracy to make things go well for them, wouldn't some of those people focus more on helping others, since they believe everything is already set up to help them?

I may get flamed by religious people here, but i'm seeing a connection between pronoia and Christianity. Think about it, some Christians believe that if they do right by god and their fellow man, everything is going to be fine for them whenever they meet their demise. I know it's not exactly the same thing as pronoia, but isn't it similar?

People thinking that there is a supernatural being looking out for them and making sure that they are okay, seems like a form of pronoia to me.


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