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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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pronoia, paranoia
    #18730648 - 08/20/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Although it doesn't get discussed much, there is another side to the coin of delusion than paranoia-- pronoia, the irrational belief that vast conspiracies have been aligned to do you good, that people have good things planned for you, that they are praising you behind your back.

Although I always figured pronoia must be a good thing, more recently it occurred that it's actually no better in theory. The notion is very appealing if you're an optimist, but shouldn't actually any more practical for social or survival purposes. That said, I think a lot of people deemed psychologically healthy probably suffer from extreme pronoid delusions which simply do not pose the same impracticality in our modern life as their paranoid counterparts.

Do you think that pronoia is "good" compared to paranoia which is "bad"? Do you think there is such a thing as a pronoid schizophrenic? Do pronoia and paranoia overlap, or are they unrelated except in theory? Do you think that in times of scarcity, paranoia might overtake pronoia as the more practical/adaptive form of delusion, leading to the quarantine in asylums of people crazy enough to think that everything is great and only getting better?


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (08/20/13 01:15 AM)


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18730660 - 08/20/13 01:16 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I want to read that book by Rob Brezsny so badly! Interesting website he has and the scopes are very different from the other ones I have read. I like the idea of what he says, fun stuff!


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18730665 - 08/20/13 01:21 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So you're not doing all of this for my benefit?...
What do you think about the saying 'A little healthy paranoia'? Thats to say, I think both of these exist in all of our minds. Consensus reality is in a lot of ways a sham, what matters more is how you perceive things. I think it really does come down to optimism vs pessimism. Or religion. If you believe everything is coming up milhouse, well- prayer or luck or simple life perception editing- things tend to go that way for you.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Lynnch]
    #18730677 - 08/20/13 01:31 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
If you believe everything is coming up milhouse, well- prayer or luck or simple life perception editing- things tend to go that way for you.




I wonder how much that is always true, though. Obviously pronoia is beneficial in this time of abundance-- I don't think anyone here on the Shroomery is starving (unless it's self-imposed via some type of drug frenzy). But imagine the times when food was scarce-- to believe everything was coming up milhouse, so to speak, was utter madness, and the lack of motivation felt in that condition could be seriously harmful to a community struggling to live day-by-day.

If you've ever met a schizophrenic person, did they seem happy to you? IME mentally ill people are always very, very unhappy for one reason or another.

Think of outdated stereotypes of crazy people-- they're always grinning wildly, laughing maniacally. Think of the Joker. It makes me wonder.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18730690 - 08/20/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

all I know is I could use a little more Pronoia


life is confusing :awesome:


too much of either would definitely be bad

on one hand, you would feel as if everything Is taken care of, that you do not need to strive or challenge yourself for good things to happen.


on the other, you will constantly try to seek others' approval, forever worrying of consequences and unforeseen outcomes


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Lynnch]
    #18730696 - 08/20/13 01:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
What do you think about the saying 'A little healthy paranoia'?




I dont think paranoia is ever healthy. "A little healthy anxiety" might be a better quote.


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: NWlight]
    #18730702 - 08/20/13 01:43 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I see your point, but what about the perseverance to keep climbing over a frozen pass, or walking thru the desert? Sure it may be crazy, but the one that believes water is just over the hill is the one that survives- not the one that gives up.

Even paranoid schitzos have enemies.  :strokebeard:

Interesting stuff, sorry I'm passing out..


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Lynnch]
    #18730708 - 08/20/13 01:47 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i've met a bunch of pronoid people.  Thats a normal type of skitzophrenia i believe.


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: teamkiller]
    #18730717 - 08/20/13 01:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

pronoid people probably walk around thinking there are presents everywhere


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #18730727 - 08/20/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

its a subset of grandiose delusions i believe. grandiose delusions being the 2nd most common type in skitzophrenic people, but i dunno what portion of that is pronoia.

I would imagine people with pronoia would have alot easier time staying out of mental institutions but i dunno.  Most of the people i've met in real life who thinks everything in life is set up for their benefit managed to stay out of trouble.


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: teamkiller]
    #18730728 - 08/20/13 02:07 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

oh, p.s.  severe narcissism might be along the same lines as pronoia


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: teamkiller]
    #18733343 - 08/20/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teamkiller said:
oh, p.s.  severe narcissism might be along the same lines as pronoia




Apparently narcissism is highly desirable in the business world.


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Enlil said:
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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 2
    #18733566 - 08/20/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Life is all about moderation. To label any particular thing as good or bad is merely a reflection of the narrator. This extends to mind-states as well. Everything just is



:taco:


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18733574 - 08/20/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I've had a few pretty heavy pronoia trips on psychedelics before where I start thinking that everything is just a big act that is being put on for my amusement. Can be a little dangerous because one doesn't want to say the wrong thing to the wrong person or walk out in front of a moving car or something. Or believing that the police aren't real, etc.

It's pretty damn fun though as long as you can maintain.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


Edited by nicechrisman (08/20/13 06:39 PM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #18733584 - 08/20/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:thatsayes:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: nicechrisman]
    #18733621 - 08/20/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
I've had a few pretty heavy pronoia trips on psychedelics before where I start thinking that everything is just a big act that is being put on for me amusement. Can be a little dangerous because one doesn't want to say the wrong thing to the wrong person or walk out in front of a moving car or something. Or believing that the police aren't real, etc.

It's pretty damn fun though as long as you can maintain.




I had amphetamine psychosis after a bit of overindulgence a while ago. This was what initially got me to thinking about pronoia (as a psychological concept, because the classical/mystical concept is a different thing). I heard the voices of several people I knew talking about me, as if they were in the room with me or they were projecting their thoughts into my mind. The psychosis began when I stopped believing their were imaginary, when they began describing my every movement to the tee, even as I was alone.

Their "mood" would oscillate between pronoia and paranoia. In the pronoiac state, they were supportive of me; they were trying to solve my problems for me and they loved me dearly. But this eventually violated my sense of self-determination, because they weren't allowing me any imperfections or mistakes. I began to feel alienated, and they became hostile, jeering, tearing me down. At first I was crushed, but when I stopped reacting emotionally to their attacks, they returned to the cloyingly congratulatory mood of pronoia, and the cycle would just go on like that.

I don't recommend it, for the record. :methisgood:


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18733628 - 08/20/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

amphetamine psychosis is really something


--------------------
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it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18733650 - 08/20/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Although it doesn't get discussed much, there is another side to the coin of delusion than paranoia-- pronoia, the irrational belief that vast conspiracies have been aligned to do you good, that people have good things planned for you, that they are praising you behind your back.

Although I always figured pronoia must be a good thing, more recently it occurred that it's actually no better in theory. The notion is very appealing if you're an optimist, but shouldn't actually any more practical for social or survival purposes. That said, I think a lot of people deemed psychologically healthy probably suffer from extreme pronoid delusions which simply do not pose the same impracticality in our modern life as their paranoid counterparts.

Do you think that pronoia is "good" compared to paranoia which is "bad"? Do you think there is such a thing as a pronoid schizophrenic? Do pronoia and paranoia overlap, or are they unrelated except in theory? Do you think that in times of scarcity, paranoia might overtake pronoia as the more practical/adaptive form of delusion, leading to the quarantine in asylums of people crazy enough to think that everything is great and only getting better?




This is very thought provoking.
:themoreyouknow: I've never heard of pronoia.
I think that extreme pronoia is even more dangerous than extreme paranoia. Thinking that there is an intricate conspiracy designed to do you good is bound to lead to risky and dangerous behavior.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: RockyRaccoon]
    #18733683 - 08/20/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I think it's interesting that teamkiller made the connection to narcissism, because narcissism is well-valued in the business world. It could be that in this time of tremendous surplus, pronoiac states enable "good humor" and "confidence" that would in times of scarcity amount to dereliction of responsibility and a total lack of realism.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleRockyRaccoon
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18733751 - 08/20/13 07:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I think it's interesting that teamkiller made the connection to narcissism, because narcissism is well-valued in the business world. It could be that in this time of tremendous surplus, pronoiac states enable "good humor" and "confidence" that would in times of scarcity amount to dereliction of responsibility and a total lack of realism.




That is an interesting connection. Part of me see's a direct connection between the two, but another part of me is thinking: If people think that there is a large conspiracy to make things go well for them, wouldn't some of those people focus more on helping others, since they believe everything is already set up to help them?

I may get flamed by religious people here, but i'm seeing a connection between pronoia and Christianity. Think about it, some Christians believe that if they do right by god and their fellow man, everything is going to be fine for them whenever they meet their demise. I know it's not exactly the same thing as pronoia, but isn't it similar?

People thinking that there is a supernatural being looking out for them and making sure that they are okay, seems like a form of pronoia to me.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: RockyRaccoon]
    #18734313 - 08/20/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Interestingly enough, the ancient Greek word for "Divine Providence", the will of God (in the pre-Christian sense), was also pronoia. Wikipedia claims that pronoia in the context of psychology was coined in 1982. It makes me wonder how long the term "paranoia" has been in use.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleRockyRaccoon
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18734337 - 08/20/13 09:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Interestingly enough, the ancient Greek word for "Divine Providence", the will of God (in the Platonic, not Christian sense), was also pronoia. Wikipedia claims that pronoia in the context of psychology was coined in 1982. It makes me wonder how long the term "paranoia" has been in use.




That is interesting. Maybe that was all set up on wikipedia to favor me personally :crazy:

:lol:         


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: RockyRaccoon]
    #18734351 - 08/20/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Damn, things get really hairy when you try to tease apart the semantic roots of ancient Greek words. I just found this:

Quote:

PRONOIA (or Pronoea) was an Okeanid nymph of Mount Parnassos in Phokis (central Greece). She was the wife of the Titan Prometheus and, as her name suggests, the goddess of foresight. Prometheus' wife was also named Hesione and Asia.

Pronoia was closely identified with the goddess Athena who, according to several ancient writers, was worshipped as Athena Pronoia at Delphoi. As an Okeanid she also resembles Athena's mother Metis.




Okay, now I'm just confused. :dawerp:


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: RockyRaccoon]
    #18734355 - 08/20/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

etymology time now is it? :aweohyou:

ma favorite word is anamnesis :datass:


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And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #18734373 - 08/20/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Damn, now that is one fancy word for a mundane triviality. Into the lexicon it goes!

Today the anamnesis of my academic records was severely hampered by a glitch in the system. :shake:


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #18734386 - 08/20/13 09:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Damn, now that is one fancy word for a mundane triviality. Into the lexicon it goes!

Today the anamnesis of my academic records was severely hampered by a glitch in the system. :shake:




Tis, tis indeed. English is awesome like that, once they covered the basics they elaborated so nerds such as ourselves could feel superior to the lesser plebs without them knowing :raisemyglass:

I wonder though, there seems to be a deeper meaning to the word. It is attempting to intertwine the ideas of remembering from a past self as rediscovering or learning in the current self. It also seems to have some ties to Christianity.

All I know is I learned it from Philip K. Dick's Exegesis. That man was...extremely interesting to read.


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And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


Edited by JesusIsLord (08/20/13 09:18 PM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #18734402 - 08/20/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Paranoia is not correlated with a mythological figure.

One should be invented. :hotidea:


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18734418 - 08/20/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Paranoia is not correlated with a mythological figure.

One should be invented. :hotidea:



teh krakken :taco:

er teh uber cop :cop:


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #18734428 - 08/20/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yeah, Paranoia is definitely a cop... good thinking. I was thinking of a creeper in the bushes on the side of the road, but a cop in the bushes? :awedisgust:

It should also fit in with the rest of Greek mythology, though. It's gotta have an origin story. Perhaps the ashes of Icarus' wings got caught in a glass of wine.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18734449 - 08/20/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Oh yeah, Paranoia is definitely a cop... good thinking. I was thinking of a creeper in the bushes on the side of the road, but a cop in the bushes? :awedisgust:

It should also fit in with the rest of Greek mythology, though. It's gotta have an origin story. Perhaps the ashes of Icarus' wings got caught in a glass of wine.



you on a whole nother level of mythology knowledge than me. maybe teh cyclops from the odyssey. i'm just adapting not creatin tho :shrug:

call him teh cycops :cop:

he be all, hey, imma eatchu.  :fatbastard:

what's wrong, you perrnoid?


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18734461 - 08/20/13 09:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Do you think that pronoia is "good" compared to paranoia which is "bad"? Do you think there is such a thing as a pronoid schizophrenic? Do pronoia and paranoia overlap, or are they unrelated except in theory? Do you think that in times of scarcity, paranoia might overtake pronoia as the more practical/adaptive form of delusion, leading to the quarantine in asylums of people crazy enough to think that everything is great and only getting better?




Robert Anton Wilson once said that most everything good we have in the world was created, designed, inspired, conjured, engineered, built, and summoned by the minds of optimists.

All pessimists do is sit around and bitch all day.

As for the delusion element, there does seem to be a vast conspiracy for your well-being. Believing that is a major first step towards actualizing it. "Positive thinking" doesn't magnetize one towards an endless stream of success, nor does it fix the world, but those people "afflicted" with pronoia make damn good philanthropists.

Emergency Message from Raja Ram:



--------------------
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #18734487 - 08/20/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Nahh, I'm just spitballin'. This would be easier if I knew more about mythology. :lol:

Anyway, the poisoned wine grows moldy (against all common sense). Dionysus dumps the wine, the mold on the ground becomes Paranoia, an abandoned stygian spirit. He rapes Pronoia and the child of their union is...

George W. Bush.


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18734509 - 08/20/13 09:39 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Nahh, I'm just spitballin'. This would be easier if I knew more about mythology. :lol:

Anyway, the poisoned wine grows moldy (against all common sense). Dionysus dumps the wine, the mold on the ground becomes Paranoia, an abandoned stygian spirit. He rapes Pronoia and the child of their union is...

George W. Bush.



I like it :lol:


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And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #18734522 - 08/20/13 09:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Nahh, I'm just spitballin'. This would be easier if I knew more about mythology. :lol:

Anyway, the poisoned wine grows moldy (against all common sense). Dionysus dumps the wine, the mold on the ground becomes Paranoia, an abandoned stygian spirit. He rapes Pronoia and the child of their union is...

George W. Bush.




I'm going to college, and my major is philosophy. I'm sure to learn more about greek mythology :awesome:


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18734716 - 08/20/13 10:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I think it's interesting that teamkiller made the connection to narcissism, because narcissism is well-valued in the business world. It could be that in this time of tremendous surplus, pronoiac states enable "good humor" and "confidence" that would in times of scarcity amount to dereliction of responsibility and a total lack of realism.




the best business men are sociopaths


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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #18734780 - 08/20/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

led zeppelin make a thread apologizing for that time u stole that guys cash when he was ODing


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Offlineteamkiller
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sheekle]
    #18735673 - 08/21/13 03:27 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Their "mood" would oscillate between pronoia and paranoia. In the pronoiac state, they were supportive of me; they were trying to solve my problems for me and they loved me dearly. But this eventually violated my sense of self-determination, because they weren't allowing me any imperfections or mistakes. I began to feel alienated, and they became hostile, jeering, tearing me down. At first I was crushed, but when I stopped reacting emotionally to their attacks, they returned to the cloyingly congratulatory mood of pronoia, and the cycle would just go on like that.




I've had states like that too.  I think its a sensory interface to the subconscious.  People truely are constantly judging us, and positively and negatively re-enforcing our behavior on a moment by moment basis.  We do modify our actions and send signals back. 
I don't know if what you're describing in particular was a delusional state, but for myself it was an honest self examination of some of the things going on in the background of my brain.


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InvisibleLegend
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: teamkiller]
    #18735705 - 08/21/13 03:52 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I think paranoia is thrown around too much. I don't think normal paranoia is even paranoia.

Same with pronoia. If you've ever met a truly paranoid individual you'd know it can be extreme.

I think there is a point where it becomes a problem, whether your have the negative or positive symptoms.

I think most people are merely confused as to what is "normal" teh human mind is always doing thangs.


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No sympathy for the devil, keep that in mind.
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InvisibleRockyRaccoon
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Registered: 06/17/13
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: Sheekle]
    #18736432 - 08/21/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sheekle said:
led zeppelin make a thread apologizing for that time u stole that guys cash when he was ODing




:smug:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: pronoia, paranoia [Re: teamkiller]
    #18736592 - 08/21/13 09:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teamkiller said:
Quote:

Their "mood" would oscillate between pronoia and paranoia. In the pronoiac state, they were supportive of me; they were trying to solve my problems for me and they loved me dearly. But this eventually violated my sense of self-determination, because they weren't allowing me any imperfections or mistakes. I began to feel alienated, and they became hostile, jeering, tearing me down. At first I was crushed, but when I stopped reacting emotionally to their attacks, they returned to the cloyingly congratulatory mood of pronoia, and the cycle would just go on like that.




I've had states like that too.  I think its a sensory interface to the subconscious.  People truely are constantly judging us, and positively and negatively re-enforcing our behavior on a moment by moment basis.  We do modify our actions and send signals back. 
I don't know if what you're describing in particular was a delusional state, but for myself it was an honest self examination of some of the things going on in the background of my brain.




There was no honesty, I heard the voices as if they were real, they addressed me as a separate person and for several hours I honestly thought they were my friends' voices, and I reacted to them thinking they were real. I know what that normally gets called and it's not "honest self-examination". Cute, though.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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