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OfflineCan-i-bus
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Registered: 01/22/13
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: s240779]
    #18736609 - 08/21/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
If he's making disruptive noises in the neighborhood, I sympathize.




Me too, although the letter is really overkill....just go to the house and talk to them face to face.

I have a 30 something year old down syndrome guy living next door to me and he is obnoxiously loud and annoying but I'd never write a letter like that...I'm generally gone during the day so it's not too bad...


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OfflineOyBroop
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Registered: 08/19/13
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Can-i-bus]
    #18736613 - 08/21/13 09:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

you cant sit here...


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Enlil]
    #18736622 - 08/21/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, and in Canada it is seen that hate speech law is a very important part of reconciling the guarantees of freedom of expression in the Charter with the need to protect vulnerable groups from persecution.

Canadians are more concerned with equality and social harmony than our neighbours to the south--a broad, libertarian interpretation of our Charter rights doesn’t have as much purchase here.

Besides, if you are a decent human being, you will never commit this offence--it’s hard to do--your act must be public, not private--it must target a vulnerable group--it must be so vile that a reasonable person will conclude that your speech “exposes or tends to expose any person or class of person to detestation and vilification on the basis of a prohibited ground of discrimination".

I don't see any reasonable justification for such speech in civil society.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 1
    #18736628 - 08/21/13 09:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
I have actually met more arrogant and unfriendly europeans in my travels abroad than americans.




Ditto. Actually, it's not technically Europe but England is probably the worst IME, the whole island would be a prison. :lol: They've got some real neandertals there.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlineqman
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Enlil]
    #18736652 - 08/21/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Hate speech is protected by the constitution, as it should be.  The remedy for such speech is more speech, not censorship.  Trading my freedom of speech for a little bit of protection against being offended isn't even a close call in my book.


:whathesaid:

Who would even define what "hate speech" is or isn't?  The PC police, no thanks.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18736661 - 08/21/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I don't see any reasonable justification for such speech in civil society.



That's because you were raised in a culture that doesn't value freedom of speech.  It isn't about whether or not a "civilized society" should or shouldn't have hate speech.  It is about whether a government should have the power to silence someone simply because he/she expresses unpopular opinions. 

The power to choose what speech is and isn't acceptable in a "civilized society" is ultimately the power to control society.  Communication is a fundamental and essential part of any system of self-rule.  By controlling what messages can and can't be delivered, the government has the power to shape society.  That is far more oppressive than any hate speech ever could be.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: qman]
    #18736670 - 08/21/13 09:57 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Hate speech is protected by the constitution, as it should be.  The remedy for such speech is more speech, not censorship.  Trading my freedom of speech for a little bit of protection against being offended isn't even a close call in my book.


:whathesaid:

Who would even define what "hate speech" is or isn't?  The PC police, no thanks.



In Canada, if it is meant to incite hatred, or promote genocide, than it is considered hate speech--not merely based around what someone finds offensive, but fairly clear cut criteria.

Not to say some controversy or ambiguity doesn't exist--but you guys are appearing to misunderstanding the difference between hate speech laws and obscenity laws.


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18736675 - 08/21/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like they should ban the internet while they are at it, 99% of what gets posted in OTD would be considered illegal in Canada.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Enlil]
    #18736708 - 08/21/13 10:07 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I don't see any reasonable justification for such speech in civil society.



That's because you were raised in a culture that doesn't value freedom of speech.  It isn't about whether or not a "civilized society" should or shouldn't have hate speech.  It is about whether a government should have the power to silence someone simply because he/she expresses unpopular opinions. 

The power to choose what speech is and isn't acceptable in a "civilized society" is ultimately the power to control society.  Communication is a fundamental and essential part of any system of self-rule.  By controlling what messages can and can't be delivered, the government has the power to shape society.  That is far more oppressive than any hate speech ever could be.



Or, perhaps, that you were raised in a culture that places very little value on social justice and equality--hate speech laws are by far the norm is the majority of todays developed countries.

Earlier this year, the supreme court of Canada made a ruling upholding hate speech laws--here's an excerpt from their ruling:

"Hate speech is an effort to marginalize individuals based on their membership in a group. Using expression that exposes the group to hatred, hate speech seeks to delegitimize group members in the eyes of the majority, reducing their social standing and acceptance within society. Hate speech, therefore, rises beyond causing distress to individual group members. It can have a societal impact. Hate speech lays the groundwork for later, broad attacks on vulnerable groups that can range from discrimination, to ostracism, segregation, deportation, violence and, in the most extreme cases, to genocide. Hate speech also impacts on a protected group's ability to respond to the substantive ideas under debate, thereby placing a serious barrier to their full participation in our democracy."


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #18736813 - 08/21/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
hate speech laws are by far the norm is the majority of todays developed countries.



1. I think this statement is false, and I'd appreciate a source to back up this claim.  Thanks in advance.

2. Consensus doesn't generally indicate that something is a good idea.


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Invisiblesomething super extreme
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Enlil]
    #18736832 - 08/21/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Hate speech is protected by the constitution, as it should be.  The remedy for such speech is more speech, not censorship.  Trading my freedom of speech for a little bit of protection against being offended isn't even a close call in my book.




:bigyesnod:

What's more laughable is that people allow themselves to be this worked up over insignificant words.
I can't imagine trying to seek legal action over what amounts to someone being mean to your kid.


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #18736840 - 08/21/13 10:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Great receipe for a country full of cry babies and sandy vanginas.  Why stop there, why not ban all forms of unwanted harassment.  Why is it worse to make fun of someone for being black or asian, than for being stupid or ugly?  Names hurt regardless of why, child proofing society isn't going to work.  Maybe its cause I'm from NJ/NYC area, but laws aren't going to make assholes any nicer.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Registered: 03/01/12
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #18737059 - 08/21/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
I have actually met more arrogant and unfriendly europeans in my travels abroad than americans.




Ditto. Actually, it's not technically Europe but England is probably the worst IME, the whole island would be a prison. :lol: They've got some real neandertals there.



I know its crazy they also are much more of a police state in my opnion than the states.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Enlil]
    #18737084 - 08/21/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
I guess it could be argued that the letter in question counseled the recipient to commit a crime, but maybe that is a stretch.



Quote:

Enlil said:
So much of a stretch that it would evidence a desire to try to find a way to punish someone for expressing an unpopular opinion....pretty much exactly what the Canadian cops are doing.




Can you expand on that? They did essentially tell the person to kill their child.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18737117 - 08/21/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Hate speech is protected by the constitution, as it should be.  The remedy for such speech is more speech, not censorship.  Trading my freedom of speech for a little bit of protection against being offended isn't even a close call in my book.


:whathesaid:

Who would even define what "hate speech" is or isn't?  The PC police, no thanks.



In Canada, if it is meant to incite hatred, or promote genocide, than it is considered hate speech--not merely based around what someone finds offensive, but fairly clear cut criteria.

Not to say some controversy or ambiguity doesn't exist--but you guys are appearing to misunderstanding the difference between hate speech laws and obscenity laws.




There is nothing more "offensive" than censorship, to have lawmakers decided what words can come out of my mouth is a disgusting concept. 

What did the most fascist and oppressive governments in history also have on their law books?  Speech laws.


Edited by qman (08/21/13 11:59 AM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #18737118 - 08/21/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Why stop there, why not ban all forms of unwanted harassment.  Why is it worse to make fun of someone for being black or asian, than for being stupid or ugly?



You display a misunderstanding of what hate speech laws actually consist of--making fun of someone for their race is not considered hate speech--incitement of hatred or promotion of genocide is.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: psi]
    #18737124 - 08/21/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Telling someone to commit a crime isn't a crime unless the intention is for the person to actually commit the crime.  I see zero evidence of such an intention.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: Enlil]
    #18737137 - 08/21/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

OK, fair enough.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: qman] * 2
    #18737152 - 08/21/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
There is nothing more "offensive" than censorship, to have lawmakers decided what words can come out of my mouth a disgusting concept. 

What did the most fascist and oppressive governments in history also have on their law books?  Speech laws.



common limitations to free speech (that are also found in the United States):

-Sedition (advocating force as a way to change the government)
-Threats
-Defamation (libel and slander)
-False or misleading advertising
-Buffer zones around abortion clinics that prevent anti-abortion protesters from harassing patients and staff
-Quiet zones near hospitals or schools
-Municipal bylaws restricting the location, size, type, content, and display of signs, posters, objects, ads, etc.
-Profanity on public airwaves
-Publication refusal, censorship, and the right to edit enforced by news websites, online forums and blogs, newspapers, magazines, radio, and other media
-Company confidentiality policies (such as employees being prohibited from sharing trade secrets or talking to the media)
-Gag orders or publication bans in contracts, court cases, and settlements


I also heard that fascist governments had traffic laws--therefore, all laws that govern traffic are fascist.


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Invisiblesomething super extreme
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Re: Derisive letter sent to parents of autistic boy [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18737154 - 08/21/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Traffic laws are pretty abysmal and restrictive on my freedom to not drive like your grandmother.
Fascist bullshit.


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