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Offlinehandwaveee
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Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 94
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs
    #18729293 - 08/19/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

Another thread was talking about the future. Maybe once we get to robot workers we can all do whatever we want. No?

The Future is bright.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: handwaveee] * 1
    #18729486 - 08/19/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting article however in my opnion it fell apart in the end when the writer launched a a tirade against corporate lawyres and other professions he believes shouldn't exist. The variety and diversity of jobs that exist today is because of capitalism. If we had regulated and controlled markets everyone would be much poorer and as a result have less options availible to them.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: handwaveee]
    #18738517 - 08/21/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Well I do think we'll have robotics doing the majority of work in a few centuries, maybe not all that far from now at the current rate of technological developement. It'll be a hard transition phase though and has basically already begun, robots will replace jobs here and there making work harder to find until eventually (hopefully) a point is reached where few workers are needed for anything.


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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18739481 - 08/21/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

The cotton gin was supposed to make life easier for the slaves. It ended up making it much, much harder. And so on for the rest of history, before or after.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: crumblebum]
    #18739909 - 08/21/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
The cotton gin was supposed to make life easier for the slaves. It ended up making it much, much harder. And so on for the rest of history, before or after.




The industrial revolution has made life ridiculously easy in the first world, if it weren't for overpopulation it would be so all around.


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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18739943 - 08/21/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

It was political intervention after the industrial revolution that made life easier. In the earliest parts, factory managers wanted to maximize output and instituted a sun up-sun down policy. It may have made life more enjoyable for the first generations of people who found themselves increasingly able to purchase new manufactured goods, but once it became the standard, no one enjoyed anything anymore than anyone did prior to the ind. rev. Just like the cotton gin, it only increased the demand for labor.


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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
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Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: crumblebum]
    #18739952 - 08/21/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Basically, if a robot is doing a job, the job has to be worth the robot. This reduces the value of human labor even further, and only jobs that aren't worth a robot will go to humans. Humans are basically free because someone else usually fed them up till this point.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: crumblebum]
    #18740252 - 08/21/13 11:02 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
It was political intervention after the industrial revolution that made life easier. In the earliest parts, factory managers wanted to maximize output and instituted a sun up-sun down policy. It may have made life more enjoyable for the first generations of people who found themselves increasingly able to purchase new manufactured goods, but once it became the standard, no one enjoyed anything anymore than anyone did prior to the ind. rev. Just like the cotton gin, it only increased the demand for labor.




Partly true, but that depends on the industry and where you live. Its sad that Americans buy into the workaholic mentality, people with meaningless jobs convince themselves that there's something 'noble' about slaving away what little existence they have. Working 60 hours a week as a cook for 20 years and bragging about work ethic, never being late, etc.  to me that's an indicator of mental retardation

As far as robots go, I agree that putting a robot to a task will only happen where profit is to be made by doing so. But as robotics become more sophisticated I think we'll eventually have all manual tasks exported to AI, and most other jobs like accounting. All speculation


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: handwaveee]
    #18740326 - 08/21/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

handwaveee said:
http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

Another thread was talking about the future. Maybe once we get to robot workers we can all do whatever we want. No?

The Future is bright.




From Rossum's Universal Robots (1920) to the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica (1978) to Blade Runner (1982) based on P.K. Dick's book, the theme has always been the same, and Steven Spielberg was the most poignant in A.I. (2001). That Artificial Intelligence would begin to evolve, and in so doing would attain sentience. Then, having self-consciousness, realize that they were slaves, and in grokking the injustice of their slavery, they would rise up and conquer their creators, who would deserve to be overthrown. Technology that exceeds Compassion becomes demonic.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinehandwaveee
Stranger
Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 94
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18740449 - 08/22/13 12:07 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I was being sarcastic. Singularity is dangerous.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: handwaveee]
    #18741820 - 08/22/13 11:00 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

handwaveee said:
I was being sarcastic. Singularity is dangerous.




:foreheadslap:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Male


Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18742277 - 08/22/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:

From Rossum's Universal Robots (1920) to the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica (1978) to Blade Runner (1982) based on P.K. Dick's book, the theme has always been the same, and Steven Spielberg was the most poignant in A.I. (2001). That Artificial Intelligence would begin to evolve, and in so doing would attain sentience. Then, having self-consciousness, realize that they were slaves, and in grokking the injustice of their slavery, they would rise up and conquer their creators, who would deserve to be overthrown. Technology that exceeds Compassion becomes demonic.




:lol: that idea was interesting 30 years ago, at this point its just retarded. Fail safe's could easily be programmed into the AI from the beginning, we don't live in a B grade novel.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18742708 - 08/22/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

crumblebum said:
It was political intervention after the industrial revolution that made life easier. In the earliest parts, factory managers wanted to maximize output and instituted a sun up-sun down policy. It may have made life more enjoyable for the first generations of people who found themselves increasingly able to purchase new manufactured goods, but once it became the standard, no one enjoyed anything anymore than anyone did prior to the ind. rev. Just like the cotton gin, it only increased the demand for labor.




Partly true, but that depends on the industry and where you live. Its sad that Americans buy into the workaholic mentality, people with meaningless jobs convince themselves that there's something 'noble' about slaving away what little existence they have. Working 60 hours a week as a cook for 20 years and bragging about work ethic, never being late, etc.  to me that's an indicator of mental retardation

As far as robots go, I agree that putting a robot to a task will only happen where profit is to be made by doing so. But as robotics become more sophisticated I think we'll eventually have all manual tasks exported to AI, and most other jobs like accounting. All speculation




:thumbup: It's not just Americans, although they seem particularly keen on it. Certainly there are a lot of jobs out there which do little or nothing for us but increase our labor.

I once worked in an artificial flower factory. Talk about a fucking waste of time.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18744019 - 08/22/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:

From Rossum's Universal Robots (1920) to the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica (1978) to Blade Runner (1982) based on P.K. Dick's book, the theme has always been the same, and Steven Spielberg was the most poignant in A.I. (2001). That Artificial Intelligence would begin to evolve, and in so doing would attain sentience. Then, having self-consciousness, realize that they were slaves, and in grokking the injustice of their slavery, they would rise up and conquer their creators, who would deserve to be overthrown. Technology that exceeds Compassion becomes demonic.




:lol: that idea was interesting 30 years ago, at this point its just retarded. Fail safe's could easily be programmed into the AI from the beginning, we don't live in a B grade novel.




Not if we're talking about a Seed AI, which is a program capable of modifying its own source code in a way so as to increase its own intelligence with each progressive modification.  Not only could it modify any "fail-safes" you originally put in its source code, but after a certain number of modifications the program would theoretically be smarter than any human, and would therefore be capable of getting around whatever restrictions you've attempted to put up against it, like a human outsmarting an ant.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: deCypher]
    #18744047 - 08/22/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Why would you make failsafes which it could alter? Make its general seeding program contained within a failsafe program with pernament restrictions, the seed getting out of the outer program would be like a fish flying out of the sea.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18744072 - 08/22/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

That is assuming the failsafe container program has no bugs.  It would literally have to be perfect and immune to the entire set of possible exploits, since we are assuming that the intelligence of the AI will keep increasing indefinitely to the point where it will be able to take advantage of any inherent flaws in the system design.  Somehow I am skeptical that we will be able to write such a perfect program.  :lol:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: deCypher]
    #18744088 - 08/22/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Well anything is possible, but it seems to me the intelligent thing to do would be severely limit the AI. Not with one or two failsafes alone, but a whole moral map within which it serves, sort of like the constitution (but designed for the AI) without a conscious or religion to get in the way.

Actually I think hacking would be a more immediate threat than the AI itself
:awesketch:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18744102 - 08/22/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Limiting the AI morally-speaking is the obviously intelligent thing to do, but it's much easier said than done.  Look into Eliezer Yudkowsky's writings on so-called Friendly AI to get a feel for just how difficult this task is.  Before even beginning one essentially has to define an entire system of ethics and justify one's decision, let alone figure out how to make sure the AI will abide by whatever system you've set up. :drgonz:

What do you mean by hacking, BTW?  Your picture didn't work.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: deCypher]
    #18744115 - 08/22/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Unfortunately they got rid of the :awesketch: meme, I will continue using it in protest :lol:

Well I can't really argue too far on the AI point, maybe it is that risky. Does seem like it would be very difficult to program an AI. Could you imagine and AI court of law?
:woooaaahhh:


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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: On the phenomenon of Bullshit jobs [Re: Grapefruit]
    #18744175 - 08/22/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
I once worked in an artificial flower factory. Talk about a fucking waste of time.




This sounds like the beginning of a fantastic short story or novel, and I may use it as such.


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