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Offlinekrypto2000
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How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work?
    #18726488 - 08/19/13 08:32 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I have a basic understanding, but still some questions. As I understand it when you take a spore print you are getting genetics from a whole line of mushrooms, just like humans, so the genetics will be more limited, but still way more diverse than taking a clone which will be a set genotype(probably the wrong word?) and you will always get those genes when using a clone. When taking a spore print though you are taking out some of the genetic diversity within the original spore print your clone/print grew from though. My confusion/question is that I was told that the more you take subsequent spore prints the weaker your mushrooms will ultimately be because you're dwindling away this genetic diversity. So my question is why is this bad? Couldn't you treat it like a plant, say opium poppies for instance. Traditionally they tie a string around the flowers that secrete the most opium latex and next year use those seeds for their crop. After many generations this is how we've ended up with high yielding opium strains.

So sure taking a random spore print will ultimately be a crap shoot and lead to a likely shitty set of genetics, but what if you took spores from say your 3 largest mushrooms that also had a relatively high potency and then made a clone of each of those and grew it out in a separate monotub. Repeat the tests above on a mushroom from each of the monos and then depending which of the 3 tubs was most favorable you went back to your original 3 spore prints and chose the best performing of the 3. Repeat this process ad infinum until you've isolated a set good set of genetics. Would this not eventually lead to a, I forget the word, it's higher in order than a strain, I'll just say 'group of strains' since I don't know it, but a group of strains that are fast, hardy growers as well as potent and likewise produce spores that also carry these traits? Am I understanding something wrong or do we just not do this because of the amount of work involved?


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18726539 - 08/19/13 08:45 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

A clone doesn't mean it is an isolate.  Many different genetics can be at play in a single fruit.

A spore will germinate into a hypha, which meets with another hypha to form hyphae, which is your dikaryotic mycelium.

Taking a clone of a fruit body will usually result in a couple different dikaryotic strains (which is what each pairing of hyphae are - their own strain0.

An isolate is one strain of dikaryotic mycelium.

Multispore won't inherently be bad, you can even have variation from one shroom to the next.  An isolate will give off a much more even pinset, and if you find a good isolate can grow faster as well.

All you are doing when finding an isolate is selecting for traits you want, whether that be monster fruits, even pinsets, fast colonization, or potency.

There are millions of spores in a print.  You won't be losing much of anything in subsequent prints.  That is unless you have cloned a clone too many times, you can encounter senescence, and the spores can lose genetics that way.  Imagine it like old people having babies, they're much more likely to have defects.  But two healthy young people have a baby, that baby can have babies, and so on and so forth without loss of DNA.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18726638 - 08/19/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Why is losing dna necessarily a bad thing though? If you grow out a clone until senescence starts to set in yet the mushrooms itself are still healthy would this not, at least potentially, have the benefit of shedding some possible bad genetics? I'm basically wondering how to select for strong genetic spore producers, that is to say not many spores, but the spores themselves being more viable than the original print.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18726686 - 08/19/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Losing genes isn't inherently bad.  You could theoretically weed out "bad," or "undesirable" genes, but, nature has done most of this work for us already.  We have an almost perfect mushroom for what we need it for.  Genetically, it is going to be hard to come up with a "better" spore producer, and what the goal should be is to prevent degraded genetics to be mixed with future lines.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18726769 - 08/19/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

You could say the same thing of marijuana in the 60's. Things can always be improved. Ideally you'd just continue natures work by selecting for large mushies, even clusters/canopies, and of course potency. I'd say what we have now is simply good enough, maybe better than good enough, but every time you improve something, literally anything in life the bar for perfection moves with it. It's just like the nature of science, you discover one new thing which shows new unthought of applications and along with it brings a whole new realm of questions and potential answers.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18726829 - 08/19/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I disagree.  Yes we can select for factors, but when you're working with cannabis you have actual different genotypes and different phenotypes.  You have different species of cannabis to cross and to breed.  We're only working with P. cubensis. so there is only so far selection can take us.  When you have a cannabis seed you're working with one seed.  It is easy to work with.  It is so incredibly hard to work with one spore, which takes the work out of amateur hands.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18727103 - 08/19/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

You isolate single spores using agar, it's trivial with some patience, even for an amateur.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18727120 - 08/19/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
You isolate single spores using agar



Not exactly....you isolate single sets of genetics....not spores.

It takes to spores to make a set of genetics.

There are millions of spores in each syringe, and possibly thousands per drop.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18727147 - 08/19/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

True, but back to the pot analogy it's not like you're trying to isolate a single seed. You're trying to isolate a strain, or in the case of cubes/spores a selection of strains (again, can't remember the word for this, w/e supersedes strains).


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18727222 - 08/19/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I don't agree that it is as similar as when you're looking for strains of weed you are looking for specific phenotypes of specific subspecies species of a specific species.  There is a much greater variety in Cannabis that can all interbreed than in Psilocybe cubensis which can only breed with other Psilocybe cubensis


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18727538 - 08/19/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Speaking of that do you know how you cross strains of cubes? Can a cube be crossed with say pan cyans or are the genetic differences too great?


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18727591 - 08/19/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I do not believe so, no.


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OfflineBloodKil
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18728510 - 08/19/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Speaking of that do you know how you cross strains of cubes? Can a cube be crossed with say pan cyans or are the genetic differences too great?





Strains of cubes can be easily crossed a number of ways from playing with mycelium on agar, to injecting spores olin the same jar (though unless your working with PE, an albino, or some other diverse variety you likely will not notice much if any difference in your cubes (due to them all looking quite similar)

As far as crossing pan cyans, that would be interesting to see.  I doubt it would happen very easily if at all, but I suppose there is always a chance of genetics lining up just right.


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OfflineSoulcrusher
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Re: How do the genetics of spores/clones/"offspring" work? [Re: BloodKil]
    #22405920 - 10/19/15 10:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Bump a dead thread. I had a dream I crossbred PC with truffles.


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