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InvisibleOldHam
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Registered: 07/19/13
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Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix?
    #18725660 - 08/19/13 12:57 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Just curious. I've heard it never works...but why not?
Seems it'd be a boon to cut out the whole pc/grain/waiting business.


Thanks.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725680 - 08/19/13 01:07 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

mjshroomer explains how spores are germinated by poop in the wild. 

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3831208/fpart/3/vc/1


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18725797 - 08/19/13 02:10 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, I've also read that spores germinate inside the cow, too.
Kinda beside the point of the question :smile:but still a cool thing to think about...

Thanks.

I'm guessing that the same microbes that 'defend' the mycelium against germinating / competing mold spores would hamper the development of the mushroom spores?

:confused:


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OfflineLTSwoomz
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: OldHam] * 1
    #18725874 - 08/19/13 02:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Spores need to be given the opportunity to grow into a mycelium network, but pasteurized substrate is not a good place to do that because pasteurized substrate still has baddies in it and spores are in no position to battle them. Fully colonized grains are. They are grown in sterilized substrate (WBS, Grains, etc) where they do not have to compete with anything at all and can grow super hardy for the spawning where they (along with their bacterial allies) clobber the opposition that can be found in the open air and in the pasteurized substrate when offered proper living conditions. The mycelium are the army, the beneficial bacteria is their allies, and the living conditions are the armor needed to fight off the invaders who have yet to get a foot in the door like the strong mycelium has. They literally dominate anything invading because they're already too strong.


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Edited by LTSwoomz (08/19/13 02:59 AM)


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: LTSwoomz]
    #18725883 - 08/19/13 03:09 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Good answer. Concise and informative. +1.

Of course, as with all science, we can just peer further in and keep going down to the molecular level, right? Why? Why? Why? I enjoy that kind of stuff. Well maybe not as far as molecules but...

Do spores really 'battle' or are they just competing for resources?
And, how does that work?

Can you / Why can't you pasteurize more grain and use that? Instead of typical bulk recipes.
Presumably, it doesn't have the beneficial single celled organisms.

Why not? Can they be introduced? Etc.
Know what I mean? Endless avenues to look into.

I'm trying people's patience though, I guess. So gotta step lightly...


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OfflineLTSwoomz
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725912 - 08/19/13 03:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldHam said:
Good answer. Concise and informative. +1.

Of course, as with all science, we can just peer further in and keep going down to the molecular level, right? Why? Why? Why? I enjoy that kind of stuff. Well maybe not as far as molecules but...

Do spores really 'battle' or are they just competing for resources?
And, how does that work?

Can you / Why can't you pasteurize more grain and use that? Instead of typical bulk recipes.
Presumably, it doesn't have the beneficial single celled organisms.

Why not? Can they be introduced? Etc.
Know what I mean? Endless avenues to look into.

I'm trying people's patience though, I guess. So gotta step lightly...




I honestly don't know the answer to most of those questions. I know the misnomer "myc piss" refers to the mycelium releasing metabolites used to battle harmful entities and also when stressed out such as being offered no GE. BUT I have no idea if that's how it works in a bulk substrate while they colonize it.

I was once told by FrankHorrigan that spawn itself does not provide enough nutrients and moisture on it's own to grow the mushrooms and that's why the substrate is used, it has way, way more nutes and necessities than the spawn sub and so we use it to bolster the colony once it's grown. What you're referring to is apparently called fruiting off the grain (also Franks term) and that you should expect low yields using this method. There's a whole debate about that but it's not for this thread haha

EDIT: To be a little more simplified with it, the grains are best suited for colonizing and so it's used for that stage of life, the bulk sub is best suited for fruiting, and so is supplemented in once that stage of life is ready to play out.


--------------------
My Favorite Links
1st Project Failure
2nd Project Success


Edited by LTSwoomz (08/19/13 03:57 AM)


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: LTSwoomz]
    #18725927 - 08/19/13 03:53 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Love it. Thanks, didn't know (or had forgotten) about the juicy metabolites released from stress of battling enemies. Sounds dangerous. :tongue: Wonder what that's like for the myc? Wish this subject was more above board so I could read some good science journals specifically about these things. Maybe there are some journals I could order, but I doubt it. I mean most likely they'll be for professional / big farm growers, or so specialized (intent on various aplications and various mushrooms) as to be useless for my purposes. Anyways, thanks. The internet is stressful sometimes. lol. See ya around...


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: OldHam] * 1
    #18726107 - 08/19/13 06:10 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Spores will germinate and grow on manure. . .IF you have a year or two for them to colonize in a natural environment.  Yield will be about one percent or less what the same substrate will give by using sterile procedure and proper spawning.

In nature, everything has to find a balance and each organism must find a niche to survive in.  With sterile procedure and grain spawn, we can defeat that balance and give our mushrooms 100% of the substrate.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18726161 - 08/19/13 06:34 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I guess that's the risk you take... doling out answers for years.
You see a similar looking question and roll out the rubber stamp answer.

Oh well, thanks for chiming in Rodge...:thumbup:


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: OldHam]
    #18726295 - 08/19/13 07:35 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldHam said:
I guess that's the risk you take... doling out answers for years.
You see a similar looking question and roll out the rubber stamp answer.





How fucking rude can you be?  If you don't want a "rubber stamp answer" then stop asking "rubber stamp questions" that can be easily answered with the search function. 


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OfflineBloodKil
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18726320 - 08/19/13 07:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
How fucking rude can you be?  If you don't want a "rubber stamp answer" then stop asking "rubber stamp questions" that can be easily answered with the search function. 



:congrats:


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18726561 - 08/19/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:rotfl: Someone's got their panties in a bunch.
Poor little thing, you'll feel better soon enough, never fear.

And your post doesn't even make sense.
:stonedjerk:


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: OldHam]
    #18726616 - 08/19/13 09:06 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:nignored:


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Invisibletoxetel
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Registered: 08/13/12
Posts: 708
Re: Why doesn't spore solution work on pasteurized manure mix? [Re: LTSwoomz]
    #18736617 - 08/21/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LTSwoomz said:
I was once told by FrankHorrigan that spawn itself does not provide enough nutrients and moisture on it's own to grow the mushrooms and that's why the substrate is used, it has way, way more nutes and necessities than the spawn sub and so we use it to bolster the colony once it's grown.




Let me see if I can clarify things just a little:

Spawn doesn't have enough moisture to effectively grow mushrooms, but it has plenty of nutrients. It's much more nutritious than bulk substrate. This is why it supports very rapid mycelial growth, much faster than you see in the wild. This is also why it must be sterilized: it allows contaminants to grow very fast as well. If you pasteurized grain, it would still contaminate quickly.

Bulk substrate is less nutritious, and this is why we can simply pasteurize it. If we kill off most of the competing organisms and then inoculate it with healthy and rapid-growing spawn, we soon have a bulk substrate that's fully colonized by our mycelium, which, again, is something you don't see in the wild, where the substrate is shared by lots of organisms.

For our grows, we essentially use grains mostly for their nutrients and bulk substrates mostly for their moisture.


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