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InvisibleOldHam
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Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination?
    #18725621 - 08/19/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Or... do they?

- - - - - - - - - -

I understand the details (I think) of the 'teks' and procedures but still feel suspicious, and I guess
just plain curious, as to the science behind the steps. I'm kinda slow like that.

I mean, in a hobby where sanitation is soo important how can I just throw my precious colonized
kernels into a container with nutritious, non-sterilized substrate? And just hope
that everything turns out okay. :crying:

Thinking coir and verm here...
But, maybe manure n straw later on down the line...

QUESTION:
What keeps the bulk substrates from contaminating way more often?

Luck?


Apparently, it's worth it as many pros here seem gung-ho about it.

Why? Just for the challenge? Are the fruits (alone) worth the increased risk of contam?

Surely, it's a better, more productive, method than straight rye grain 'cased' w/ straight verm.
I don't doubt that, just want to be aware of what factors are in play here so I can dial it in.
Accentuate the positive and so on to keep the bulk substrate from turning 'dumpster tek.'

--> Thanks.

  • Pasteurized bulk has microbes that protect it from competing molds. True?

  • If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker that if pasteurized. True?

  • Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?

How long did it take you to succeed at bulk growing?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (08/18/13 10:23 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725656 - 08/19/13 12:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Because you're betting that the large spawn ratio will mean the mycelium beats out contamination.  Once colonized, mold has a much tougher time growing.  When you pasteurize, you're leaving beneficial bacteria that also help protect the uncolonized bulk substrate.
Quote:


Pasteurized bulk has microbes that protect it from competing molds. True?




True.  It had those microbes before pasteurization as well.

Quote:


If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker that if pasteurized. True?




True.  That is if the "sterilized grain" means "colonized grain that had been sterilized before inoculation"

Quote:


Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?




True.


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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725662 - 08/19/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldHam said:
What keeps the bulk substrates from contaminating way more often?



Proper pasteurization and full colonization.

Coir itself is contam resistant, to a degree....just like fully colonized grain spawn.

Quote:

OldHam said:
Why? Just for the challenge? Are the fruits (alone) worth the increased risk of contam?



If your substrate is properly pasteurized, and the grains are fully colonized and clean, there is no "increased risk" of contamming.

Quote:

OldHam said:
[LIST]
  • Pasteurized bulk has microbes that protect it from competing molds. True?



  • True.

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
  • If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker that if pasteurized. True?



  • Grains do not get pasteurized, they get sterilized.

    Bulk substrates get pasteurized.

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
  • Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?



  • True in most cases.


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725672 - 08/19/13 01:05 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    Because you're betting that the large spawn ratio will mean the mycelium beats out contamination.  Once colonized, mold has a much tougher time growing.  When you pasteurize, you're leaving beneficial bacteria that also help protect the uncolonized bulk substrate.
    Quote:


    Pasteurized bulk has microbes that protect it from competing molds. True?




    True.  It had those microbes before pasteurization as well.

    Quote:


    If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker that if pasteurized. True?




    True.  That is if the "sterilized grain" means "colonized grain that had been sterilized before inoculation"

    Quote:


    Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?




    True.




    If sterilized grain/bulk/whatever was more prone to contamination... than pasteurized
    why would we sterilize at all? Instead of just using pasteurization for everything?


    Thanks for answering.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725685 - 08/19/13 01:11 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Because pasteurization does not kill everything, sterilization does.

    Grains get sterilized because they would contam if just pasteurized.

    Bulk subs get pasteurized because if they were sterilized, the open air would contaminate it.


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    OfflineMush4Brains
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725686 - 08/19/13 01:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central.

    You can sterilize bulk substrate if it never sees fresh air before full colonization as well.  However, since we spawn in open air, we pasteurize to give the spawn the best possible chance to colonize the bulk before  contamination sets in.  Pasteurization kills many of the harmful microbes and keeps the most beneficial alive.

    We don't even technically 100% sterilize our grains in a pressure cooker, simply kill enough of the bad stuff to give spores/mycelium a leg up.


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    OfflineBloodKil
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725704 - 08/19/13 01:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Because your spores need to germinate in a clean environment....  The will not be able to do so when competing with bacteria and trying to win a race against other molds that will germinate and spread much faster than our mushroom mycelium.

    However once we have that nice jar of healthy mycelium that was grown in a sterile environment (read it should be the only living thing in your jar) it will be able to out race the germination and spreading of any contams that could be introduced in the pasturize substrate.  The mycelium also has the added benefit of the certain kinds of bacteria present that will hinder the bad spores from germination (Much as I'm sure it would initially have hindered the mushrooms germination if we simply pasturize our grains, which would allow the much faster spreading bad contamination to take over.)

    (I think what I said above makes sense...  idk..  A bit medicated right at the moment)


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: PussyFart]
        #18725709 - 08/19/13 01:21 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    Why? Just for the challenge? Are the fruits (alone) worth the increased risk of contam?



    If your substrate is properly pasteurized, and the grains are fully colonized and clean, there is no "increased risk" of contamming.






    So, no increased risk of contamination only increased yields.
    I wonder why people even bother with g2g and all that other stuff?
    EDIT: I messed up, meant to say, 'wonder why people bother with other methods'.

    Weird. Maybe just less work?



    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
  • If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker than if pasteurized. True?



  • Grains do not get pasteurized, they get sterilized.

    Bulk substrates get pasteurized.





    Yeah, I get it that sterilized grain is the way things usually go.
    I'm just asking 'if'...you know? To compare just the effect of pasteurization VS sterilization.

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
  • Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?



  • True in most cases.




    Hm, could we mix a 1/4 gallon of LC into some dry-ish bulk substrate then?

    Thanks.


    Edited by OldHam (08/19/13 03:36 AM)


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    OfflineBloodKil
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725712 - 08/19/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    And your poll seems to be missing some answers...  I haven't ever attempted cakes, but from everything I've read, they look to have quite a bit more work involved and don't seem to be any simpler.

    Not having actually experienced cakes I can't of course give a which is truly easiest answer, but anyone who owns a PC, can read, and can use common sense should be able to easily tackle bulk.


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: PussyFart]
        #18725719 - 08/19/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Because pasteurization does not kill everything, sterilization does.




    Yeah I get that part. Thanks though.

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Grains get sterilized because they would contam if just pasteurized.





    Why not sterilize then use as a bulk? In the open?
    :shrug3:

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Bulk subs get pasteurized because if they were sterilized, the open air would contaminate it.




    Because the microbes help defend against other molds but work with our mushroom myc?
    Are they eaten by the myc? Do they help pinning?

    This part, in particular, is interesting to me... wish I had more info. Got some?


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725725 - 08/19/13 01:28 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central.




    You mean like w/ g2g? I hear people have great results with that though. :confused:

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    You can sterilize bulk substrate if it never sees fresh air before full colonization as well.  However, since we spawn in open air, we pasteurize to give the spawn the best possible chance to colonize the bulk before  contamination sets in.  Pasteurization kills many of the harmful microbes and keeps the most beneficial alive.

    We don't even technically 100% sterilize our grains in a pressure cooker, simply kill enough of the bad stuff to give spores/mycelium a leg up.




    Yes, got that part. Knew the last part and some of the middle but good stuff all the same, thanks.


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    OfflineBloodKil
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725730 - 08/19/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    So, no increased risk of contamination only increased yields.
    I wonder why people even bother with g2g and all that other stuff?
    Weird. Maybe just less work?

    Yeah, I get it that sterilized grain is the way things usually go.
    I'm just asking 'if'...you know? To compare just the effect of pasteurization VS sterilization.

    Hm, could we mix a 1/4 gallon of LC into some dry-ish bulk substrate then?

    Thanks.




    People "bother" with g2g as a means of increasing their amount of spawn quickly.  (Edit...  and to add a bit people don't g2g in open air.  It's done in a still air, clean air, or enclosed air environment.  If your not even understanding that you need to spend some more time with the search function)

    Most peeps would likely make master jars and from there g2g each master into multiple jars.  (You also can get an idea if what you inoculated with is contamination free by doing this)

    LC are hardly advisable to start off with, as you won't know if contamination are present until you inoculated something with it.  Even if the could do away with all that nutrition that your mushrooms get/need from the grains it would be more of a shot in the dark and likely hold a higher contamination rate. (Though as I said your muskies will need the nutrients from the grain either way as most bulk subs are not nutritional enough.

    Your better off with agar as opposed to lc, but either way you'll need those grains.


    Edited by BloodKil (08/19/13 01:35 AM)


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725734 - 08/19/13 01:34 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    You mean like w/ g2g? I hear people have great results with that though. :confused:




    G2G is done inside an SAB or in front of a flow hood for the best chance for success.  That is why G2G isn't recommended for new people, because opening a sterile jar without letting contaminants in is a difficult process.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725735 - 08/19/13 01:34 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central.




    You mean like w/ g2g? I hear people have great results with that though. :confused:



    No, not like G2G.

    G2G jars do not get exposed to open air.

    We do G2G transfers in still air boxes or in front of a flow hood.


    Edited by PussyFart (08/19/13 01:35 AM)


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725738 - 08/19/13 01:37 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    BloodKil said:
    Because your spores need to germinate in a clean environment....  The will not be able to do so when competing with bacteria and trying to win a race against other molds that will germinate and spread much faster than our mushroom mycelium.

    However once we have that nice jar of healthy mycelium that was grown in a sterile environment (read it should be the only living thing in your jar) it will be able to out race the germination and spreading of any contams that could be introduced in the pasturize substrate.  The mycelium also has the added benefit of the certain kinds of bacteria present that will hinder the bad spores from germination (Much as I'm sure it would initially have hindered the mushrooms germination if we simply pasturize our grains, which would allow the much faster spreading bad contamination to take over.)

    (I think what I said above makes sense...  idk..  A bit medicated right at the moment)




    :lol: The very, very end kinda wandered off. I thought you were going to say 'much as I'm sure it would initially have hindered the mushroom spores germinating if we had simply inoculated spore solution straight to pasteurized bulk substrate.' ...or something. Is that what you were meaning to put down?

    Thanks for the first 9/10 though. Good information, are you sure you never did this before?


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725745 - 08/19/13 01:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    BloodKil said:
    And your poll seems to be missing some answers...  I haven't ever attempted cakes, but from everything I've read, they look to have quite a bit more work involved and don't seem to be any simpler.

    Not having actually experienced cakes I can't of course give a which is truly easiest answer, but anyone who owns a PC, can read, and can use common sense should be able to easily tackle bulk.




    Option 3) Haven't tried it yet. And...
    Cakes are more work than g2g and bulk subs?
    :hmm:


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    OfflineBloodKil
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725754 - 08/19/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    With cakes most people seem to suggest using a sgfc which requires the whole daily mist/fan bs... 

    Bulk monotub however are set and forget, and once you have a viable source of continual  inoculation (agar) and the ability to g2g it is an especially expedient process to make up spawn for one.

    Edit..spend a bit of time reading around on here and using the search bar...  pay close attention to how quickly agar and g2g can colonize quarts of spawn.  Also look around at the amount of time is put into the whole project (considering the low amount of effort put into fruiting them) and the end results of each project.

    To get the yield of just one bulk tub done correctly, it seems like it would be a shit tonight more work to have to manage that many cakes and deal with not being able to expand spawn through g2g.


    Edited by BloodKil (08/19/13 01:50 AM)


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725755 - 08/19/13 01:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Per gram, yes, cakes will be more work.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725756 - 08/19/13 01:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    BloodKil said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    So, no increased risk of contamination only increased yields.
    I wonder why people even bother with g2g and all that other stuff?
    Weird. Maybe just less work?

    Yeah, I get it that sterilized grain is the way things usually go.
    I'm just asking 'if'...you know? To compare just the effect of pasteurization VS sterilization.

    Hm, could we mix a 1/4 gallon of LC into some dry-ish bulk substrate then?

    Thanks.




    People "bother" with g2g as a means of increasing their amount of spawn quickly.  (Edit...  and to add a bit people don't g2g in open air.  It's done in a still air, clean air, or enclosed air environment.  If your not even understanding that you need to spend some more time with the search function)





    I meant bother with g2g vs bulk.

    You said 'fresh air', now you're saying 'open air'.
    There seems to be a difference to me. To you? (Edit: and everyone else that jumped up) :lol:


    Thanks.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725763 - 08/19/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    There is no difference in what he meant.

    Open air/Fresh air = Air filled with contams.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725770 - 08/19/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:


    I meant bother with g2g vs bulk.






    G2G is simply to expand spawn quickly. You can turn one jar of spawn into 8-10.  Bulk is a method to fruit.  Most people who G2G will eventually spawn their colonized grain to bulk.  You can spawn to bulk in open air because the substrate is pasteurized.  You have to G2G in a SAB (still air box) or in front of a flow hood because the sterilized grains in the jar are extremely susceptible to contamination.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725774 - 08/19/13 01:52 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    Per gram, yes, cakes will be more work.




    Yeah, I get that.

    The question was, if bulks are not an increased contamination risk,
    and they offer greater yields, why do people bother with anything else?

    To which I suggested, "Maybe it's less work?"
    I mean, what other factor would keep newbs away if it's just as easy, produces more, and has less risk?


    Edited by OldHam (08/19/13 02:16 AM)


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725781 - 08/19/13 01:55 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    Per gram, yes, cakes will be more work.




    Yeah, I get that already.

    The question was, if bulks are not an increased contamination risk,
    and they offer greater yields, why do people bother with anything else?

    To which I suggested, "Maybe it's less work?"
    I mean, what other factor would keep newbs away if it's just as easy, produces more, and has less risk?





    It seems more difficult.  It is more prone to contamination only because of the spawning to bulk part.  Pasteurization scares people.  People are dirty.  I would say the increased risk of contamination is much smaller than they're usually made out to be.

    Other people simply don't need to be growing ounces of mushrooms.  Paranoia is terrible.  Getting 10g off a cake or two continually just works better for some people.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: PussyFart]
        #18725783 - 08/19/13 01:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    There is no difference in what he meant.

    Open air/Fresh air = Air filled with contams.




    Glad you can tell what he meant...:lol: because what he actually said was:

    Quote:

    "We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central."




    And yet, many, many people do just that.

    They sterilize the grain, open the jar, do a g2g transfer,
    then seal the jar back up. Not a Contamination central.

    But whatever, not trying to be a dick or anything...


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725793 - 08/19/13 02:06 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:

    It seems more difficult.  It is more prone to contamination only because of the spawning to bulk part.  Pasteurization scares people.  People are dirty.  I would say the increased risk of contamination is much smaller than they're usually made out to be.

    Other people simply don't need to be growing ounces of mushrooms.  Paranoia is terrible.  Getting 10g off a cake or two continually just works better for some people.




    Cool. Yeah this is where I'm (still) confused.
    Seems like more contamination risk to me also... being out in the open.
    With highly nutritious, non-sterile substrate right there. Even with a still air box
    some grain to grain transfers develop contamination/stall...so I can just image
    with a relatively open container only sealed by the latched lid.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725810 - 08/19/13 02:15 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Cool. Yeah this is where I'm (still) confused.
    Seems like more contamination risk to me also... being out in the open.




    Do you understand the science behind pasteurization?  We keep going around in circles here.  It was explained why pasteurized substrate is better than sterilized substrate or unpasteurized substrate for open air spawning. 

    We use 5-7+ quarts of spawn for roughly 10-14 quarts of substrate, because we expect the established mycelium on the spawn to grow faster than any contaminants.  Lowering your spawn ratio will increase your risk of contamination.

    Quote:

    Even with a still air box some grain to grain transfers develop contamination/stall




    Which is why it isn't recommended for people with poor procedure to do G2G transfers.  Which is why comments like the one below are pretty ridiculous.  You seem to realize that G2G transfers are hard to complete but don't seem to piece 2 and 2 together and realize that is because people are OPENING THEIR STERILE JARS IN DIRTY SPACES.

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    There is no difference in what he meant.

    Open air/Fresh air = Air filled with contams.




    Glad you can tell what he meant...:lol: because what he actually said was:

    Quote:

    "We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central."




    And yet, many, many people do just that.

    They sterilize the grain, open the jar, do a g2g transfer,
    then seal the jar back up. Not a Contamination central.

    But whatever, not trying to be a dick or anything...




    If you understand the context it should be plenty clear that fresh air=air that is outside the jar that doesn't come through the filter. 




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    OfflineMush4Brains
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725824 - 08/19/13 02:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    And by the way, an extremely large portion of bulk projects EVENTUALLY end in contamination.  Especially bucket tek'd coir, you usually get a few flushes before colors start showing up.


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725829 - 08/19/13 02:25 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    Quote:

    Cool. Yeah this is where I'm (still) confused.
    Seems like more contamination risk to me also... being out in the open.




    Do you understand the science behind pasteurization?  We keep going around in circles here.  It was explained why pasteurized substrate is better than sterilized substrate or unpasteurized substrate for open air spawning. 

    We use 5-7+ quarts of spawn for roughly 10-14 quarts of substrate, because we expect the established mycelium on the spawn to grow faster than any contaminants.  Lowering your spawn ratio will increase your risk of contamination.

    Quote:

    Even with a still air box some grain to grain transfers develop contamination/stall




    Which is why it isn't recommended for people with poor procedure to do G2G transfers.  Which is why comments like the one below are pretty ridiculous.  You seem to realize that G2G transfers are hard to complete but don't seem to piece 2 and 2 together and realize that is because people are OPENING THEIR STERILE JARS IN DIRTY SPACES.




    Uh, why are you yelling? :lol:
    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    There is no difference in what he meant.

    Open air/Fresh air = Air filled with contams.




    Glad you can tell what he meant...:lol: because what he actually said was:

    Quote:

    "We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central."




    And yet, many, many people do just that.

    They sterilize the grain, open the jar, do a g2g transfer,
    then seal the jar back up. Not a Contamination central.

    But whatever, not trying to be a dick or anything...




    If you understand the context it should be plenty clear that fresh air=air that is outside the jar that doesn't come through the filter. 





    Whatever dude. People sterilize jars, open them, do g2g and close them.
    Not a contamination central. Not really even 'central' to this thread.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725834 - 08/19/13 02:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    And by the way, an extremely large portion of bulk projects EVENTUALLY end in contamination.  Especially bucket tek'd coir, you usually get a few flushes before colors start showing up.




    :facepalm: Every method 'eventually ends in contamination.'
    Not sure what bee got in your bonnet w/ the caps lock and the argy bargy...


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    OfflineMush4Brains
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725842 - 08/19/13 02:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    OldHam said:

    Uh, why are you yelling?

    Whatever dude. People sterilize jars, open them, do g2g and close them.
    Not a contamination central. Not really even 'central' to this thread.




    I'm not yelling, I'm trying to emphasize a point.

    It isn't central to this thread, but you're the one who brought it in this direction.  Yes, people do it, but it is under highly controlled conditions.  You confirmed you understand this by saying:
    Quote:

    Even with a still air box some grain to grain transfers develop contamination/stall..






    Quote:

    :facepalm: Every method 'eventually ends in contamination.'




    That isn't true.


    Quote:

    Not sure what bee got in your bonnet w/ the caps lock and the argy bargy...




    If you keep calling me mad I might start getting mad.  You claim you're not trying to be a dick but after answering every question to the best of my knowledge, along with other people, you sure aren't appreciative, and are extremely condescending.


    Edited by Mush4Brains (08/19/13 02:36 AM)


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    OfflineLTSwoomz
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
        #18725843 - 08/19/13 02:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:


    Quote:

    "We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central."




    And yet, many, many people do just that.

    They sterilize the grain, open the jar, do a g2g transfer,
    then seal the jar back up. Not a Contamination central.

    But whatever, not trying to be a dick or anything...







    Incorrect. He's saying that if you sterilize grains and then open the jars to open air, then close them back up, and come back in a week or two, it'll be contaminated. People do NOT do that all of the time, they sterilize, then open up the jars under a HEPA filter or Flow Hood or in a SAB or w/e means they have and then do the G2G, which is not open air at all.


    Pasteurized substrates spawned to with 100% colonized grains will outgrow any possible contam assuming conditions are met for healthy growth of our choice mycelium. The increased risk you perceive is because you're not taking into account how contam resistant fully colonized grains are. The colonized grains are too fast and too strong for contams when spawned into pasteurized substrate which also provides beneficial bacteria and microbes that aid the mycelium (as far as I understand), and outgrow contams before they ever take hold.

    Grain 2 Grain is not done in open air, as mentioned a few times before, and it isn't a fruiting method it's a colonizing method to create faster spawn for bulk tubs that are pasteurized.

    You sterilize something if it's never going to touch fresh/open (interchangeable words) air until it is fully colonized at which point it is very contam resistant. Grain jars used for bulk subs fit the bill, as they only get GE through filters designed to keep baddies out while allowing the myc to breathe.

    You pasteurize a substrate BECAUSE it's going to be exposed to fresh/open air before it is fully colonized because pasteurization does not kill off all of the things in it like sterilization does. It leaves a lot of the bacteria that helps mycelium and the process kills a bunch of baddies. If it was sterilized instead and then spawned to from grain jars (which were sterilized because they were NEVER exposed to fresh air!) it would have NO beneficial bacteria in there to aid the mycelium in colonizing and the harmful contams would outgrow the mycelium due to this.

    Hope that clears it up.


    --------------------
    My Favorite Links
    1st Project Failure
    2nd Project Success


    Edited by LTSwoomz (08/19/13 02:43 AM)


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725855 - 08/19/13 02:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Not fun: endless correcting dithering over little side issues.

    Thanks for your responses but I understand colonized grain is very unlikely to
    contaminate, I'm talking about the substrate we're trying to colonize with the
    grain. Right? And, the whole pedantic, semantic FAE vs open air procedure thing,
    you know...I don't even care any more, whatever. That has nothing to do with bulk
    and it's risks and the curious ways things work. :smile: Sorry for any idiocy I contributed here.

    I thought all these were pretty good, if noobish questions that didnt get answered:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Bulk subs get pasteurized because if they were sterilized, the open air would contaminate it.




    Because the microbes help defend against other molds but work with our mushroom myc?  (Edit: How?)
    Are they eaten by the myc? Do they help pinning?

    This part, in particular, is interesting to me... wish I had more info. Got some?






    Etc:
    Also, is bulk less contamination risk? or more? More right?
    Is pasteurization the main vector for increasing contamination risk?

    Or is the (more) open air nature of the tub?

    Seems like a tightrope act between wanting a highly nutritious substrate (to increase yields)
    and competing feeders on that substrate (increased contamination risk).

    :smile:

    Oh look, a TC! Yay:
    Quote:

    ProfessorPinHead said:
    Pros: good yields, Strong fruits, rapid colonizer.

    Cons: Easier to fuck up than coir, one flush wonder, attracts green shit....




    oddly enough, a search of "pros cons bulk" (w/ TC responses) results in 13 threads,
    none of which mention "pros and cons of bulk" in the title...but there you have it.

    There's some interesting avenues here.
    I'm loving it. Love talking about the science behind it.
    Not so fun huffing n puffing about he said no you said I said, no he meant, I meant, you meant, etc. lol.
    Sorry about that.

    I like the nitty gritty 'how' and especially 'why.' :smile:
    Wish Stamets would put out another book update GGMM or TMC...:sad:
    With more specifics like the stuff in this and other threads.

    Anyways:
    Thanks everyone for your responses so far... :wave:


    Edited by OldHam (08/19/13 03:30 AM)


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    OfflineStromriderM
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725983 - 08/19/13 04:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    :smbfacepalm: Wow! Just read this thread and now I have a headache :wellholyshit:


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Stromrider]
        #18725989 - 08/19/13 04:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Sorry. All I wanted to do was discuss the finer aspects of bulk.
    People get so uptight about answering questions, seems like...

    Like it's a chore.
    If it's a chore, just don't do it.


    Same goes for reading threads.


    - - - - -

    All I really got was, no it's not more contam risk, cuz the microbes and ratio of spawn.
    Yes it's more contam risk, and then a shitfit of arguing and gabbling, gibbering stuff.
    (I actually got a bit more out of it, and actually have saved the thread for later)

    My basic questions in the OP, and the offshoot discussions are still there.
    And, I still love to go in depth with clear minded, non-drama obsessed posters.
    :kenthumbup:


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    Invisiblehankstymcbankerson

    Registered: 07/24/13
    Posts: 180
    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725998 - 08/19/13 04:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    I can answer one question. As a noob, and single consumer, I dont want to do bulk because thats way more mushrooms than Id be able to eat before Id want to start another grow.

    Growing is a hobby, eating a few mushrooms in a benefit, having a stockpile of mushrooms would be a problem.

    Maybe its just me. . . .

    EDIT: And before it gets brought up, yes I could do 1 bulk and be set for, a year, but Im really having fun with cakes. Im not worried about "bang for the buck" or "top yeild".


    Edited by hankstymcbankerson (08/19/13 04:58 AM)


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: hankstymcbankerson]
        #18726002 - 08/19/13 04:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Why not just stockpile 'em... then stop growing?
    EDIT: Nevermind, you just like growing, and for some reason don't like storing them.

    Ok.


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