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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725770 - 08/19/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


I meant bother with g2g vs bulk.






G2G is simply to expand spawn quickly. You can turn one jar of spawn into 8-10.  Bulk is a method to fruit.  Most people who G2G will eventually spawn their colonized grain to bulk.  You can spawn to bulk in open air because the substrate is pasteurized.  You have to G2G in a SAB (still air box) or in front of a flow hood because the sterilized grains in the jar are extremely susceptible to contamination.


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18725774 - 08/19/13 01:52 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Per gram, yes, cakes will be more work.




Yeah, I get that.

The question was, if bulks are not an increased contamination risk,
and they offer greater yields, why do people bother with anything else?

To which I suggested, "Maybe it's less work?"
I mean, what other factor would keep newbs away if it's just as easy, produces more, and has less risk?


Edited by OldHam (08/19/13 02:16 AM)


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725781 - 08/19/13 01:55 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldHam said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Per gram, yes, cakes will be more work.




Yeah, I get that already.

The question was, if bulks are not an increased contamination risk,
and they offer greater yields, why do people bother with anything else?

To which I suggested, "Maybe it's less work?"
I mean, what other factor would keep newbs away if it's just as easy, produces more, and has less risk?





It seems more difficult.  It is more prone to contamination only because of the spawning to bulk part.  Pasteurization scares people.  People are dirty.  I would say the increased risk of contamination is much smaller than they're usually made out to be.

Other people simply don't need to be growing ounces of mushrooms.  Paranoia is terrible.  Getting 10g off a cake or two continually just works better for some people.


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18725783 - 08/19/13 01:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
There is no difference in what he meant.

Open air/Fresh air = Air filled with contams.




Glad you can tell what he meant...:lol: because what he actually said was:

Quote:

"We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central."




And yet, many, many people do just that.

They sterilize the grain, open the jar, do a g2g transfer,
then seal the jar back up. Not a Contamination central.

But whatever, not trying to be a dick or anything...


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18725793 - 08/19/13 02:06 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:

It seems more difficult.  It is more prone to contamination only because of the spawning to bulk part.  Pasteurization scares people.  People are dirty.  I would say the increased risk of contamination is much smaller than they're usually made out to be.

Other people simply don't need to be growing ounces of mushrooms.  Paranoia is terrible.  Getting 10g off a cake or two continually just works better for some people.




Cool. Yeah this is where I'm (still) confused.
Seems like more contamination risk to me also... being out in the open.
With highly nutritious, non-sterile substrate right there. Even with a still air box
some grain to grain transfers develop contamination/stall...so I can just image
with a relatively open container only sealed by the latched lid.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725810 - 08/19/13 02:15 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cool. Yeah this is where I'm (still) confused.
Seems like more contamination risk to me also... being out in the open.




Do you understand the science behind pasteurization?  We keep going around in circles here.  It was explained why pasteurized substrate is better than sterilized substrate or unpasteurized substrate for open air spawning. 

We use 5-7+ quarts of spawn for roughly 10-14 quarts of substrate, because we expect the established mycelium on the spawn to grow faster than any contaminants.  Lowering your spawn ratio will increase your risk of contamination.

Quote:

Even with a still air box some grain to grain transfers develop contamination/stall




Which is why it isn't recommended for people with poor procedure to do G2G transfers.  Which is why comments like the one below are pretty ridiculous.  You seem to realize that G2G transfers are hard to complete but don't seem to piece 2 and 2 together and realize that is because people are OPENING THEIR STERILE JARS IN DIRTY SPACES.

Quote:

OldHam said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
There is no difference in what he meant.

Open air/Fresh air = Air filled with contams.




Glad you can tell what he meant...:lol: because what he actually said was:

Quote:

"We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central."




And yet, many, many people do just that.

They sterilize the grain, open the jar, do a g2g transfer,
then seal the jar back up. Not a Contamination central.

But whatever, not trying to be a dick or anything...




If you understand the context it should be plenty clear that fresh air=air that is outside the jar that doesn't come through the filter. 




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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18725824 - 08/19/13 02:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

And by the way, an extremely large portion of bulk projects EVENTUALLY end in contamination.  Especially bucket tek'd coir, you usually get a few flushes before colors start showing up.


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18725829 - 08/19/13 02:25 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Cool. Yeah this is where I'm (still) confused.
Seems like more contamination risk to me also... being out in the open.




Do you understand the science behind pasteurization?  We keep going around in circles here.  It was explained why pasteurized substrate is better than sterilized substrate or unpasteurized substrate for open air spawning. 

We use 5-7+ quarts of spawn for roughly 10-14 quarts of substrate, because we expect the established mycelium on the spawn to grow faster than any contaminants.  Lowering your spawn ratio will increase your risk of contamination.

Quote:

Even with a still air box some grain to grain transfers develop contamination/stall




Which is why it isn't recommended for people with poor procedure to do G2G transfers.  Which is why comments like the one below are pretty ridiculous.  You seem to realize that G2G transfers are hard to complete but don't seem to piece 2 and 2 together and realize that is because people are OPENING THEIR STERILE JARS IN DIRTY SPACES.




Uh, why are you yelling? :lol:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

OldHam said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
There is no difference in what he meant.

Open air/Fresh air = Air filled with contams.




Glad you can tell what he meant...:lol: because what he actually said was:

Quote:

"We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central."




And yet, many, many people do just that.

They sterilize the grain, open the jar, do a g2g transfer,
then seal the jar back up. Not a Contamination central.

But whatever, not trying to be a dick or anything...




If you understand the context it should be plenty clear that fresh air=air that is outside the jar that doesn't come through the filter. 





Whatever dude. People sterilize jars, open them, do g2g and close them.
Not a contamination central. Not really even 'central' to this thread.


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18725834 - 08/19/13 02:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
And by the way, an extremely large portion of bulk projects EVENTUALLY end in contamination.  Especially bucket tek'd coir, you usually get a few flushes before colors start showing up.




:facepalm: Every method 'eventually ends in contamination.'
Not sure what bee got in your bonnet w/ the caps lock and the argy bargy...


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725842 - 08/19/13 02:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldHam said:

Uh, why are you yelling?

Whatever dude. People sterilize jars, open them, do g2g and close them.
Not a contamination central. Not really even 'central' to this thread.




I'm not yelling, I'm trying to emphasize a point.

It isn't central to this thread, but you're the one who brought it in this direction.  Yes, people do it, but it is under highly controlled conditions.  You confirmed you understand this by saying:
Quote:

Even with a still air box some grain to grain transfers develop contamination/stall..






Quote:

:facepalm: Every method 'eventually ends in contamination.'




That isn't true.


Quote:

Not sure what bee got in your bonnet w/ the caps lock and the argy bargy...




If you keep calling me mad I might start getting mad.  You claim you're not trying to be a dick but after answering every question to the best of my knowledge, along with other people, you sure aren't appreciative, and are extremely condescending.


Edited by Mush4Brains (08/19/13 02:36 AM)


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OfflineLTSwoomz
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #18725843 - 08/19/13 02:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:

"We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central."




And yet, many, many people do just that.

They sterilize the grain, open the jar, do a g2g transfer,
then seal the jar back up. Not a Contamination central.

But whatever, not trying to be a dick or anything...







Incorrect. He's saying that if you sterilize grains and then open the jars to open air, then close them back up, and come back in a week or two, it'll be contaminated. People do NOT do that all of the time, they sterilize, then open up the jars under a HEPA filter or Flow Hood or in a SAB or w/e means they have and then do the G2G, which is not open air at all.


Pasteurized substrates spawned to with 100% colonized grains will outgrow any possible contam assuming conditions are met for healthy growth of our choice mycelium. The increased risk you perceive is because you're not taking into account how contam resistant fully colonized grains are. The colonized grains are too fast and too strong for contams when spawned into pasteurized substrate which also provides beneficial bacteria and microbes that aid the mycelium (as far as I understand), and outgrow contams before they ever take hold.

Grain 2 Grain is not done in open air, as mentioned a few times before, and it isn't a fruiting method it's a colonizing method to create faster spawn for bulk tubs that are pasteurized.

You sterilize something if it's never going to touch fresh/open (interchangeable words) air until it is fully colonized at which point it is very contam resistant. Grain jars used for bulk subs fit the bill, as they only get GE through filters designed to keep baddies out while allowing the myc to breathe.

You pasteurize a substrate BECAUSE it's going to be exposed to fresh/open air before it is fully colonized because pasteurization does not kill off all of the things in it like sterilization does. It leaves a lot of the bacteria that helps mycelium and the process kills a bunch of baddies. If it was sterilized instead and then spawned to from grain jars (which were sterilized because they were NEVER exposed to fresh air!) it would have NO beneficial bacteria in there to aid the mycelium in colonizing and the harmful contams would outgrow the mycelium due to this.

Hope that clears it up.


--------------------
My Favorite Links
1st Project Failure
2nd Project Success


Edited by LTSwoomz (08/19/13 02:43 AM)


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725855 - 08/19/13 02:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Not fun: endless correcting dithering over little side issues.

Thanks for your responses but I understand colonized grain is very unlikely to
contaminate, I'm talking about the substrate we're trying to colonize with the
grain. Right? And, the whole pedantic, semantic FAE vs open air procedure thing,
you know...I don't even care any more, whatever. That has nothing to do with bulk
and it's risks and the curious ways things work. :smile: Sorry for any idiocy I contributed here.

I thought all these were pretty good, if noobish questions that didnt get answered:
Quote:

OldHam said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Bulk subs get pasteurized because if they were sterilized, the open air would contaminate it.




Because the microbes help defend against other molds but work with our mushroom myc?  (Edit: How?)
Are they eaten by the myc? Do they help pinning?

This part, in particular, is interesting to me... wish I had more info. Got some?






Etc:
Also, is bulk less contamination risk? or more? More right?
Is pasteurization the main vector for increasing contamination risk?

Or is the (more) open air nature of the tub?

Seems like a tightrope act between wanting a highly nutritious substrate (to increase yields)
and competing feeders on that substrate (increased contamination risk).

:smile:

Oh look, a TC! Yay:
Quote:

ProfessorPinHead said:
Pros: good yields, Strong fruits, rapid colonizer.

Cons: Easier to fuck up than coir, one flush wonder, attracts green shit....




oddly enough, a search of "pros cons bulk" (w/ TC responses) results in 13 threads,
none of which mention "pros and cons of bulk" in the title...but there you have it.

There's some interesting avenues here.
I'm loving it. Love talking about the science behind it.
Not so fun huffing n puffing about he said no you said I said, no he meant, I meant, you meant, etc. lol.
Sorry about that.

I like the nitty gritty 'how' and especially 'why.' :smile:
Wish Stamets would put out another book update GGMM or TMC...:sad:
With more specifics like the stuff in this and other threads.

Anyways:
Thanks everyone for your responses so far... :wave:


Edited by OldHam (08/19/13 03:30 AM)


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725983 - 08/19/13 04:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:smbfacepalm: Wow! Just read this thread and now I have a headache :wellholyshit:


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18725989 - 08/19/13 04:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry. All I wanted to do was discuss the finer aspects of bulk.
People get so uptight about answering questions, seems like...

Like it's a chore.
If it's a chore, just don't do it.


Same goes for reading threads.


- - - - -

All I really got was, no it's not more contam risk, cuz the microbes and ratio of spawn.
Yes it's more contam risk, and then a shitfit of arguing and gabbling, gibbering stuff.
(I actually got a bit more out of it, and actually have saved the thread for later)

My basic questions in the OP, and the offshoot discussions are still there.
And, I still love to go in depth with clear minded, non-drama obsessed posters.
:kenthumbup:


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Invisiblehankstymcbankerson

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Posts: 180
Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725998 - 08/19/13 04:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I can answer one question. As a noob, and single consumer, I dont want to do bulk because thats way more mushrooms than Id be able to eat before Id want to start another grow.

Growing is a hobby, eating a few mushrooms in a benefit, having a stockpile of mushrooms would be a problem.

Maybe its just me. . . .

EDIT: And before it gets brought up, yes I could do 1 bulk and be set for, a year, but Im really having fun with cakes. Im not worried about "bang for the buck" or "top yeild".


Edited by hankstymcbankerson (08/19/13 04:58 AM)


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InvisibleOldHam
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: hankstymcbankerson]
    #18726002 - 08/19/13 04:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Why not just stockpile 'em... then stop growing?
EDIT: Nevermind, you just like growing, and for some reason don't like storing them.

Ok.


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