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InvisibleOldHam
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Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination?
    #18725621 - 08/19/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Or... do they?

- - - - - - - - - -

I understand the details (I think) of the 'teks' and procedures but still feel suspicious, and I guess
just plain curious, as to the science behind the steps. I'm kinda slow like that.

I mean, in a hobby where sanitation is soo important how can I just throw my precious colonized
kernels into a container with nutritious, non-sterilized substrate? And just hope
that everything turns out okay. :crying:

Thinking coir and verm here...
But, maybe manure n straw later on down the line...

QUESTION:
What keeps the bulk substrates from contaminating way more often?

Luck?


Apparently, it's worth it as many pros here seem gung-ho about it.

Why? Just for the challenge? Are the fruits (alone) worth the increased risk of contam?

Surely, it's a better, more productive, method than straight rye grain 'cased' w/ straight verm.
I don't doubt that, just want to be aware of what factors are in play here so I can dial it in.
Accentuate the positive and so on to keep the bulk substrate from turning 'dumpster tek.'

--> Thanks.

  • Pasteurized bulk has microbes that protect it from competing molds. True?

  • If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker that if pasteurized. True?

  • Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?

How long did it take you to succeed at bulk growing?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (08/18/13 10:23 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725656 - 08/19/13 12:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Because you're betting that the large spawn ratio will mean the mycelium beats out contamination.  Once colonized, mold has a much tougher time growing.  When you pasteurize, you're leaving beneficial bacteria that also help protect the uncolonized bulk substrate.
Quote:


Pasteurized bulk has microbes that protect it from competing molds. True?




True.  It had those microbes before pasteurization as well.

Quote:


If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker that if pasteurized. True?




True.  That is if the "sterilized grain" means "colonized grain that had been sterilized before inoculation"

Quote:


Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?




True.


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Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
    #18725662 - 08/19/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldHam said:
What keeps the bulk substrates from contaminating way more often?



Proper pasteurization and full colonization.

Coir itself is contam resistant, to a degree....just like fully colonized grain spawn.

Quote:

OldHam said:
Why? Just for the challenge? Are the fruits (alone) worth the increased risk of contam?



If your substrate is properly pasteurized, and the grains are fully colonized and clean, there is no "increased risk" of contamming.

Quote:

OldHam said:
[LIST]
  • Pasteurized bulk has microbes that protect it from competing molds. True?



  • True.

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
  • If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker that if pasteurized. True?



  • Grains do not get pasteurized, they get sterilized.

    Bulk substrates get pasteurized.

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
  • Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?



  • True in most cases.


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725672 - 08/19/13 01:05 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    Because you're betting that the large spawn ratio will mean the mycelium beats out contamination.  Once colonized, mold has a much tougher time growing.  When you pasteurize, you're leaving beneficial bacteria that also help protect the uncolonized bulk substrate.
    Quote:


    Pasteurized bulk has microbes that protect it from competing molds. True?




    True.  It had those microbes before pasteurization as well.

    Quote:


    If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker that if pasteurized. True?




    True.  That is if the "sterilized grain" means "colonized grain that had been sterilized before inoculation"

    Quote:


    Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?




    True.




    If sterilized grain/bulk/whatever was more prone to contamination... than pasteurized
    why would we sterilize at all? Instead of just using pasteurization for everything?


    Thanks for answering.


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    OfflinePussyFart
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725685 - 08/19/13 01:11 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Because pasteurization does not kill everything, sterilization does.

    Grains get sterilized because they would contam if just pasteurized.

    Bulk subs get pasteurized because if they were sterilized, the open air would contaminate it.


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    OfflineMush4Brains
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725686 - 08/19/13 01:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central.

    You can sterilize bulk substrate if it never sees fresh air before full colonization as well.  However, since we spawn in open air, we pasteurize to give the spawn the best possible chance to colonize the bulk before  contamination sets in.  Pasteurization kills many of the harmful microbes and keeps the most beneficial alive.

    We don't even technically 100% sterilize our grains in a pressure cooker, simply kill enough of the bad stuff to give spores/mycelium a leg up.


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    OfflineBloodKil
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725704 - 08/19/13 01:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Because your spores need to germinate in a clean environment....  The will not be able to do so when competing with bacteria and trying to win a race against other molds that will germinate and spread much faster than our mushroom mycelium.

    However once we have that nice jar of healthy mycelium that was grown in a sterile environment (read it should be the only living thing in your jar) it will be able to out race the germination and spreading of any contams that could be introduced in the pasturize substrate.  The mycelium also has the added benefit of the certain kinds of bacteria present that will hinder the bad spores from germination (Much as I'm sure it would initially have hindered the mushrooms germination if we simply pasturize our grains, which would allow the much faster spreading bad contamination to take over.)

    (I think what I said above makes sense...  idk..  A bit medicated right at the moment)


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: PussyFart]
        #18725709 - 08/19/13 01:21 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    Why? Just for the challenge? Are the fruits (alone) worth the increased risk of contam?



    If your substrate is properly pasteurized, and the grains are fully colonized and clean, there is no "increased risk" of contamming.






    So, no increased risk of contamination only increased yields.
    I wonder why people even bother with g2g and all that other stuff?
    EDIT: I messed up, meant to say, 'wonder why people bother with other methods'.

    Weird. Maybe just less work?



    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
  • If you put sterilized grain into a (non-sterile) bulk container, it'd contaminate quicker than if pasteurized. True?



  • Grains do not get pasteurized, they get sterilized.

    Bulk substrates get pasteurized.





    Yeah, I get it that sterilized grain is the way things usually go.
    I'm just asking 'if'...you know? To compare just the effect of pasteurization VS sterilization.

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
  • Sterilized substrate is more prone to contamination than pasteurized. True?



  • True in most cases.




    Hm, could we mix a 1/4 gallon of LC into some dry-ish bulk substrate then?

    Thanks.


    Edited by OldHam (08/19/13 03:36 AM)


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    OfflineBloodKil
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725712 - 08/19/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    And your poll seems to be missing some answers...  I haven't ever attempted cakes, but from everything I've read, they look to have quite a bit more work involved and don't seem to be any simpler.

    Not having actually experienced cakes I can't of course give a which is truly easiest answer, but anyone who owns a PC, can read, and can use common sense should be able to easily tackle bulk.


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: PussyFart]
        #18725719 - 08/19/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Because pasteurization does not kill everything, sterilization does.




    Yeah I get that part. Thanks though.

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Grains get sterilized because they would contam if just pasteurized.





    Why not sterilize then use as a bulk? In the open?
    :shrug3:

    Quote:

    Notahacker420 said:
    Bulk subs get pasteurized because if they were sterilized, the open air would contaminate it.




    Because the microbes help defend against other molds but work with our mushroom myc?
    Are they eaten by the myc? Do they help pinning?

    This part, in particular, is interesting to me... wish I had more info. Got some?


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: Mush4Brains]
        #18725725 - 08/19/13 01:28 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central.




    You mean like w/ g2g? I hear people have great results with that though. :confused:

    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    You can sterilize bulk substrate if it never sees fresh air before full colonization as well.  However, since we spawn in open air, we pasteurize to give the spawn the best possible chance to colonize the bulk before  contamination sets in.  Pasteurization kills many of the harmful microbes and keeps the most beneficial alive.

    We don't even technically 100% sterilize our grains in a pressure cooker, simply kill enough of the bad stuff to give spores/mycelium a leg up.




    Yes, got that part. Knew the last part and some of the middle but good stuff all the same, thanks.


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    OfflineBloodKil
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725730 - 08/19/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    So, no increased risk of contamination only increased yields.
    I wonder why people even bother with g2g and all that other stuff?
    Weird. Maybe just less work?

    Yeah, I get it that sterilized grain is the way things usually go.
    I'm just asking 'if'...you know? To compare just the effect of pasteurization VS sterilization.

    Hm, could we mix a 1/4 gallon of LC into some dry-ish bulk substrate then?

    Thanks.




    People "bother" with g2g as a means of increasing their amount of spawn quickly.  (Edit...  and to add a bit people don't g2g in open air.  It's done in a still air, clean air, or enclosed air environment.  If your not even understanding that you need to spend some more time with the search function)

    Most peeps would likely make master jars and from there g2g each master into multiple jars.  (You also can get an idea if what you inoculated with is contamination free by doing this)

    LC are hardly advisable to start off with, as you won't know if contamination are present until you inoculated something with it.  Even if the could do away with all that nutrition that your mushrooms get/need from the grains it would be more of a shot in the dark and likely hold a higher contamination rate. (Though as I said your muskies will need the nutrients from the grain either way as most bulk subs are not nutritional enough.

    Your better off with agar as opposed to lc, but either way you'll need those grains.


    Edited by BloodKil (08/19/13 01:35 AM)


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    OfflineMush4Brains
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725734 - 08/19/13 01:34 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    You mean like w/ g2g? I hear people have great results with that though. :confused:




    G2G is done inside an SAB or in front of a flow hood for the best chance for success.  That is why G2G isn't recommended for new people, because opening a sterile jar without letting contaminants in is a difficult process.


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725735 - 08/19/13 01:34 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    Quote:

    Mush4Brains said:
    We sterilize grains because they should never see fresh air until their fully colonized.  Try sterilizing grain and open the jar up, and then seal it for a week or two.  Contamination central.




    You mean like w/ g2g? I hear people have great results with that though. :confused:



    No, not like G2G.

    G2G jars do not get exposed to open air.

    We do G2G transfers in still air boxes or in front of a flow hood.


    Edited by PussyFart (08/19/13 01:35 AM)


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725738 - 08/19/13 01:37 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    BloodKil said:
    Because your spores need to germinate in a clean environment....  The will not be able to do so when competing with bacteria and trying to win a race against other molds that will germinate and spread much faster than our mushroom mycelium.

    However once we have that nice jar of healthy mycelium that was grown in a sterile environment (read it should be the only living thing in your jar) it will be able to out race the germination and spreading of any contams that could be introduced in the pasturize substrate.  The mycelium also has the added benefit of the certain kinds of bacteria present that will hinder the bad spores from germination (Much as I'm sure it would initially have hindered the mushrooms germination if we simply pasturize our grains, which would allow the much faster spreading bad contamination to take over.)

    (I think what I said above makes sense...  idk..  A bit medicated right at the moment)




    :lol: The very, very end kinda wandered off. I thought you were going to say 'much as I'm sure it would initially have hindered the mushroom spores germinating if we had simply inoculated spore solution straight to pasteurized bulk substrate.' ...or something. Is that what you were meaning to put down?

    Thanks for the first 9/10 though. Good information, are you sure you never did this before?


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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725745 - 08/19/13 01:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    BloodKil said:
    And your poll seems to be missing some answers...  I haven't ever attempted cakes, but from everything I've read, they look to have quite a bit more work involved and don't seem to be any simpler.

    Not having actually experienced cakes I can't of course give a which is truly easiest answer, but anyone who owns a PC, can read, and can use common sense should be able to easily tackle bulk.




    Option 3) Haven't tried it yet. And...
    Cakes are more work than g2g and bulk subs?
    :hmm:


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    OfflineBloodKil
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725754 - 08/19/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    With cakes most people seem to suggest using a sgfc which requires the whole daily mist/fan bs... 

    Bulk monotub however are set and forget, and once you have a viable source of continual  inoculation (agar) and the ability to g2g it is an especially expedient process to make up spawn for one.

    Edit..spend a bit of time reading around on here and using the search bar...  pay close attention to how quickly agar and g2g can colonize quarts of spawn.  Also look around at the amount of time is put into the whole project (considering the low amount of effort put into fruiting them) and the end results of each project.

    To get the yield of just one bulk tub done correctly, it seems like it would be a shit tonight more work to have to manage that many cakes and deal with not being able to expand spawn through g2g.


    Edited by BloodKil (08/19/13 01:50 AM)


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    OfflineMush4Brains
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725755 - 08/19/13 01:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Per gram, yes, cakes will be more work.


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    InvisibleOldHam
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: BloodKil]
        #18725756 - 08/19/13 01:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    BloodKil said:
    Quote:

    OldHam said:
    So, no increased risk of contamination only increased yields.
    I wonder why people even bother with g2g and all that other stuff?
    Weird. Maybe just less work?

    Yeah, I get it that sterilized grain is the way things usually go.
    I'm just asking 'if'...you know? To compare just the effect of pasteurization VS sterilization.

    Hm, could we mix a 1/4 gallon of LC into some dry-ish bulk substrate then?

    Thanks.




    People "bother" with g2g as a means of increasing their amount of spawn quickly.  (Edit...  and to add a bit people don't g2g in open air.  It's done in a still air, clean air, or enclosed air environment.  If your not even understanding that you need to spend some more time with the search function)





    I meant bother with g2g vs bulk.

    You said 'fresh air', now you're saying 'open air'.
    There seems to be a difference to me. To you? (Edit: and everyone else that jumped up) :lol:


    Thanks.


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    OfflinePussyFart
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    Re: Why don't the vast majority (like 99% of) bulk projects end in contamination? [Re: OldHam]
        #18725763 - 08/19/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

    There is no difference in what he meant.

    Open air/Fresh air = Air filled with contams.


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