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Offlinekrypto2000
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On mushroom sterility/immune response.
    #18723355 - 08/18/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I'm wondering if anyone has information or at the very least resources on how mushroom deal with contaminations. I used to have a huge problem with trich, but cleaned my house top to bottom and have not had an issue since. Since then I've even expiramented with slowly introducing them to the environment by slacking off on my sterile procedures and so far they actually appear to be healthier than any mycilia I've grown in the ~7 years I've been at this hobby. It has me wondering if, like the human and plant immune systems (it might be called something else for plants), keeping it in such sterile conditions actually makes it much more prone to contaminations.

For instance I had a myco bag which I spawned and turned out to have too much spawn, so I ended up just leaving it open, carrying it around the house, throwing it in the yard and letting it get rained on, etc. I threw some still living/green corn husks in there and it actually even started to colonize the green husks within about 2 days to my surprise. I've stuck my unwashed hands in the bag I don't know how many times now, and with all of this I haven't even seen the slightest excretion of metabolites/myc piss. This has lead me to wonder, well, what I've asked I guess, I wonder if all of this exposure is actually strengthening the mycilia essentially. My observations would say so, but there's no controls and this was just one experiment so it's far from conclusive, it's definitely given me some things to think about though. If you were to try your own experiments I'd definitely start with a sterile quart jar or something first, you obviously need a clean beginning or else it will get overtaken by contams before it even takes off, but there could be something to this. I just through a bunch of extra manure I had in the mycobag to see if it will colonize it fully, healthily, and then of course I'll fruit it and see what happens. If it's worth anything I also noticed when leaving it outside one cold night that the mycilium itself, in parts, already started to blue which I take as a good sign as we associate bluing with the strength/potency, but also as we know there has been no direct correlation which proves this.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: On mushroom sterility/immune response. [Re: krypto2000]
    #18726118 - 08/19/13 06:18 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The purpose of sterile procedure is to give our mycelium 100% of the substrate. 

In nature, nothing is sterile so the mycelium finds its niche and does what it can.  I don't think a case can be made about 'stronger' or 'weaker' depending on the stress factors it encounters.
RR


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: On mushroom sterility/immune response. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18730706 - 08/20/13 01:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Mycelium, once colonized, has its own way of competitively dealing with foreign organisms.

(as per Stamets, et al.)

I'd imagine it has a lot to do with enzymes that are released or simply starving the competitor.

That said, actual Trichoderma is a *pathogen* of the fungi.

You sure it wasn't another green mold?

Colonized mycelium is pretty damn resistant but not necessarily to actual pathogens.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: On mushroom sterility/immune response. [Re: micro]
    #18732488 - 08/20/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Am I sure what wasn't a green mold? I never had any mold show up, I was just suggesting changing the mycilium's environment and introducing contaminant spores would make the strain stronger and more versatile, perhaps even leading to epigenetic changes in the future clones and/or spores. I'm not proposing allowing your bulk sub or jars to actually get contaminated, just to stress the mycilium during their growth process. I'm not sure if my observations are true or simply random chance, but I view it like making a human exercise, starving/dieting, withstanding extreme temperatures, etc. They'll all, within reason, make the human stronger and more adaptable. I know the same thing applies to plants, so it seems reasonable, and my limited observations support it, that it would apply to all walks of life, fungi, bugs, animals, etc.

If you're simply trying to go from a spore print to mushrooms then there's not much of a point, if anything it will just delay your fruiting and possibly even hurt yields, but it could be useful for isolation purposes, hence why I posted it to advanced cultivation. Just throwing it out there to see what thoughts come back; I plan to do more experiments in the future when I have the resources to do so.


Edited by krypto2000 (08/20/13 02:07 PM)


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: On mushroom sterility/immune response. [Re: krypto2000]
    #18733141 - 08/20/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Everything has it's niche in the ecosystem.

I bet if you were to look hard enough you would find examples of mycelium defeating a pathogen (not even a competitor) by creating a gene that produces some sort of a toxin to that species. I mean, that's where we got penicillin and all that. This would be on more of a long-scale though... You would need a colony of mycelium to get overrun and try to find areas that may have developed a resistance.

I do believe they can secrete enzymes for this purpose however, and even change the pH of their surrounding environment.

To compare it to the human immune system, where there is a T-cell proliferation and virtually infinite combination of cytokines would probably be a stretch.

It's an interesting question though. I might spend some time looking it up. A quick Google search only brought up human fungal pathogens (no huge surprise there) but I might try a PubMed/DeepDyve search later on if I have the time.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: On mushroom sterility/immune response. [Re: micro]
    #18733883 - 08/20/13 07:36 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I wasn't necessarily speaking in terms of only pathogen/immune response, though I guess the title lead you to believe that. Take it back to my human and adverse conditions example. Take a human and put him through all kinds of trials, then stick him in an environment that is ideal for him, he'll do better than someone who's always lived in that environment their whole life because he has more experience, he's stronger. So if you put a jar or bin through all kinds of adverse conditions and then take a clone from a good looking fruit it may well do better on a standard grow than if you were to have just grown it out strait and taken a clone. Essentially you're speeding up natural selection. I don't know if there's any validity to that, that's simply my thought experiment.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: On mushroom sterility/immune response. [Re: krypto2000]
    #18736240 - 08/21/13 07:21 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

"That which doesn't kill me, only makes me stronger."

EDIT: I should clarify I just don't think mushrooms have the same type of immune system we have, which adapts to almost any pathogen. So, in other words -- being exposed to these things in the environment won't make the mycelium "stronger" in any antimicrobial sense. They don't have the same type of T-cell proliferation and passing on of resistance to progeny. I'm ignoring autoimmunological stuff, of course.

I bet you would find enzymes secreted, etc. but you are not going to find the same type of an immune system as you would in a person. It's just not there.

With simpler organisms, Occam's Razor is likely to hold true.

If there's enough of a competitive pathogen mutations could arise to compromise it (name your mechanism).

I had a theory cows like to trip, so they'd eat the shrooms and their spores would stay in the digestive tract. This isn't a stretch seeing how this same mechanism is used for spreading truffles 20 feet underground. The moles eat the truffles and their spores get excreted...

Bovines have several layers of digestion and P. cubensis grows naturally in cow dung. Is it not that far off to think the cows LIKE tripping, eat the shrooms, shit out the spores...

and thus continues the great circle of life :rolleyes:

it's more about a niche than being impenetrable to everything

(our immune system takes what, 20-30% of our energy or something? if I remember right)


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Edited by micro (08/21/13 07:46 AM)


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OfflineBuddyBody
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Re: On mushroom sterility/immune response. [Re: micro]
    #18770152 - 08/28/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If I remember correctly Paul Stamets does talk about using "semi-sterile" substrates with cultures that you are planning to move outdoors for a natural method of cultivation. This is supposed to decrease leap off time in that the mycelium is stronger do to dealing with competitor organisms already. While I don't think this changes the organisms response to pathogens I do see how this makes a stronger culture. realistically no organism will be at optimal health in a sterile environment. It's just not natural.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: On mushroom sterility/immune response. [Re: BuddyBody]
    #18770330 - 08/28/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BuddyBody said:
If I remember correctly Paul Stamets does talk about using "semi-sterile" substrates with cultures that you are planning to move outdoors for a natural method of cultivation. This is supposed to decrease leap off time in that the mycelium is stronger do to dealing with competitor organisms already. While I don't think this changes the organisms response to pathogens I do see how this makes a stronger culture. realistically no organism will be at optimal health in a sterile environment. It's just not natural.




The idea I think is like with grain where you inoculate it with already colonized mycelium.

So yeah, it will take hold of everything faster.


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