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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Suggestions regarding my new setup...
#18720203 - 08/17/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hello all, I am proud to be joining the ranks of (mostly) intelligent cultivators from which i have learned much over the past weeks of browsing. I am in the final stages of FC construction, a design i think many may find unique, which poses some questions on my end since i have little to compare with. Pics and a separate topic will come, but for now i will try to explain...
I wanted to go for something that looked somewhat innocuous, was nicely automated, and had the potential to house bulk amounts of growth. Im sure everyone is aware of those flimsy plastic modular drawers that are sold in various sizes and colors in any department store. Comparing this to a Martha may ease the visualization. Two sets of 3 drawers are stacked and reinforced via Plexiglass, so that the entire casing is airtight. Each drawer has a slice out of the back, so that when inserted into the frame, it locks into a "backline" piping system that provides both humid air from an ultrasonic as well as fresh air from 2 fish pumps housed on the outside of the unit. Each drawer slides back into its own "wet" and "dry" air outputs.
1/2" holes are drilled into the left and right sides of the bottom of each drawer, allowing both humid air and excess co2 to filter through the whole "cabinet" from top to bottom, being carried along by the current supplied by the fish pumps and eventually out of the bottom. The pumps are plugged to run 24/7, the Ultrasonic (Vicks 5100) is on a timer capable of 15 min intervals. After one 15 min session from standing rH, my hygrometers read 100rH on all 5 drawers (top drawer is used from tube routing/storage, and does not get humid). After a 15 min "cooldown", rH remains at 100rH.
Light is provided by a "cool white" led ropelight that is routed through the frame such that it runs across the top of each drawer, providing light I estimate to be around 7000K from directly above. This bit is sort of hard to picture without a photo, my bad, but they will come.
Which brings me to my questions... I am interested in the process of spawning to bulk substrates. Most of the time i see this included with a casing procedure. Ive also read the primary purpose of the casing layer is to provide reserve rH and nutrients. However, my system comes to 100rH so quickly that i believe it to be unusable for casing layers. So, can one, with prime conditions , fruit a tray of bulk substrate (say, inoculated from colonized rye jars) without a casing layer? Also each of my drawers has about 7.5" clearance for growing. If not, i plan to go the ol Pf Tek, cut cakes vertically, dunk/roll, and lay flat side down into drawers, perhaps on a slim tray of perlite just for good measure. *note about my rH setup: I have read suggestions of running ultrasonic outputs through "fogging" stages to reduce the amount of water particles suspended in the air, to prevent condensation on mycellium. My rig splits the output 5 ways, so I found this stage unnecessary, am I wrong? The walls do not sweat, there is just a slight layer of moisture you can wick away with your finger on the drawer bottoms/sides. I apologize for being so verbose, but as a first time poster I want to be as thorough as I can in describing my predicament. In short: a) Can bulk sub fruit w/o casing layer in a high rH, high FAE environment? b) Am i wrong to hook ultrasonic directly in without foggers? Thanks all for the time.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 9 hours, 51 minutes
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18720537 - 08/17/13 09:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ive also read the primary purpose of the casing layer is to provide reserve rH and nutrients.
The primary purpose is that some species can't pin without one. Other than that the only time I would use one is if you're trying to fruit grains without a bulk substrate or if you're fruiting without a fruiting chamber.
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: Kizzle]
#18726627 - 08/19/13 09:07 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Alright here we go... View from front, light out
 View from front, lights on
 Piping system...
 Drawer rH/temp/condensation buildup
 frame with all drawers removed
 Shot showing relative size of drawers (via feline)
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toxetel
׀ǝʇǝxoʇ ●


Registered: 08/13/12
Posts: 708
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18726962 - 08/19/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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That looks neat, and it sure looks like you've put a lot of work into it.
But... I think you're performing the same rite of passage that so many of us did when we were new: overdesigning things because we think existing solutions are underengineered. The truth is that the simple methods people use work very well.
So, here are my thoughts:
Cubensis will perform fine without a casing layer.
If you spawn to bulk in those drawers, with a properly prepared substrate and with appropriate depth, the substrate can contain all the moisture required to maintain the right humidity level in the drawers without the need for the ultrasonic humidifier.
Aquarium pumps don't move very much air once they're hooked up to all their tubes. What I think you should do if you really want to grow in this drawer set is treat it like a stack of monotubs. Cut some holes in the sides and/or fronts of each drawers to mimic a monotub, and stuff them with polyfill (tightly in the lower holes and loosely in the upper holes). Then just leave a fan running in the room.
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: toxetel]
#18727263 - 08/19/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thank you toxetel for the input. If I do indeed spawn to bulk, i dont plan of filling the drawers completely, rather preparing them in some sort of shallow tray which can be placed inside, lets say 3/4 the surface area of the drawers themselves.
I cannot deny the "over-engineered" aspects of this build. I should note i have had some experience in the past fruiting Pf Cakes in simple tubs, but it has been a long time. I had cakes in mind whilst coming up with this idea, hence the active humidification. I did not want to fuss with perlite since i would need a thick layer, and vertical space is at a premium. The discovery of these boards opened me up to the ideas of bulk subs, casings, etc.
More about the pumps... I would agree they seem to move less air than i had hoped, prompting me to buy another one mid build and double up the number of outputs (4). Outputs 1,2, and 3 go to drawers 3,4, and 5. The top drawers (1,2) share a single output split with a T adapter. I figured the bottom drawers were more prone to stale air buildup, prompting me to give the bottom "stronger" air input vs. the top two which have to share an output. Still, a nice current is produced between them all- I would estimate it does as good a job running 24/7 as a Pc fan on a short timer, although thats pure conjecture.
Ive found In recent tests I can greatly push back my number of "mists" per day, right now humidifier is kicking on at lowest setting about 15 min per 2 hours, with rH levels never dropping below mid 90s.
Its an odd and perhaps superfluous design to be sure, but I wanted to get back into the hobby and this gave me a fun project to work for a while. When it comes down to it, I will probably try multiple techniques and see what works best. I mean, ive got all the drawers, why not experiment? Should be fun Thx again
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toxetel
׀ǝʇǝxoʇ ●


Registered: 08/13/12
Posts: 708
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18729941 - 08/19/13 09:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ah, okay, if you're gonna try to fruit cakes then this makes a little more sense.
Doubling up the pumps may help, but I'd urge you to still consider a more passive way to get your FAE. Marthas seem to work best when you have slits cut in the sides, or zippers unzipped. Aquarium pumps can only move a little bit of air, and without a vent there's nowhere for that air to go. With a vent, well, you find that you don't really need the pump anyway. Monotub-style holes might be the equivalent in your setup, because you can vary the amount of polyfill you use in order to tune in the FAE.
I'd also warn you against using that cheesy hygrometer to measure relative humidity. It's not designed for this type of stuff and more than likely the transducer is saturated at this point.
I remain skeptical about this fruiting chamber, but I wish you luck. Cubensis really really wants to fruit, so you've got that going for you...
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: toxetel]
#18741326 - 08/22/13 09:16 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah ive got some better quality hygrometers in the mail at the moment. And you wanna talk passive FAE... my build just stepped into the realm of absurdity... Im really displeased with the fish pumps. They are quite noisy and just dont do a good enough job at evaporating the accumulated condensation quickly enough. I want it to be like an automated "mist and fan", with a period of misting from USH followed by a period of high FAE to encourage evaporation off of substrate (what I understand to be a top pinning trigger). So heres what my obsessive mind pieced togethor: Found a lot of ten 40mm fans on ebay for real cheap. Rated at .1 amps each. Got plently of AC adapters lying around rated for 1A or above, so I can wire them all parallel. One on each side of the drawer, per drawer. Mist for 15, pause for 15, fan for 15, repeat. Or some sort of cycle that ill work out. Of course i could have just run USH through fogging stages to "dry" the air. But those big 2 liters take up space, look tacky, and blech, just dont appeal to me. Id rather lay down a thick fog, let the mushies have a drink, then introduce enough current to prevent excessive condensation. Crazy i know, when a holed box with polyfill will do, but ive already leaped head first into this thing might as well make it the way i think is "cool", even if its tremendous overkill.
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18741339 - 08/22/13 09:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Also i cant state how happy ill be to throw those fish pumps in the trash Anybody want them?
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toxetel
׀ǝʇǝxoʇ ●


Registered: 08/13/12
Posts: 708
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18742115 - 08/22/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I guess I'll just continue to wish you luck, then...
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: toxetel]
#18742286 - 08/22/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey your input was appreciated man. Im just trying something quirky and unique to myself. Never had the urge to experiment? If my automated shit proves useless im turning straight to what you suggested.
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miw4life
The Shroomer



Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 192
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18742412 - 08/22/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think your setup is pretty sweet to be honest. id so just go for it. maybe try only 1 or 2 of the drawers at first to see if it works just incase it doesn't and you still have some to fall back on ya know? but experimenting is good. that's how everyone knows what they do today if through experimenting so I say go for it man
-------------------- "The answer to every question, is the question itself"
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: miw4life]
#18742486 - 08/22/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thankyou miw4life. With all the fruiting techniques out there, and the tunability of the mist and air outputs, im sure i will find a way to pull it off. As mentioned by tox cubes really want to fruit so i remain somewhat optimistic and appreciate your take on experimentation!
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miw4life
The Shroomer



Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 192
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18742870 - 08/22/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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hell yeah man. that setup is beautiful and even if it doesn't work the first time im positive there is something you can do to make it work just gotta experiment
-------------------- "The answer to every question, is the question itself"
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: miw4life]
#18874020 - 09/21/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Fans are up and running but no pics right now. They do the job of evaporating away excess condensation, perhaps too well. I left the ultrasonic on overnight to completely saturate the drawers. They were drenched. I then turned all the fans on and set a timer. In about half an hour all the water was gone. Right now, the best way i have found to set things are as follows, though i have some questions... Ultrasonic runs lowest setting for half hour. This brings all drawers to 99 rh, from ambient rh in about the first 10 min. Then everything rests for 15. At the end of this period, rh drops about 10% in some of the lower drawers (nature of rig gets upper drawers a bit more saturated, possibly useful if a tray looks too wet/dry, just move it around) but little evaporation occurs. The fans blow the last 15 min of the hour, removing all condensation and standing water by the end of the cycle, and plunging rH down into the mid 60s by the end. Fans off, ultrasonic on- repeat. My question is if the 45 min cycle- the time per hour which it is saturated- is long enough for the myc to actually absorb the water. Am i teasing it? Am i just getting the surface wet, drying it off, and not really hydrating it? The shortest interval i can run the fans is 15 min based on my equipment, so any timing change would just involve extending the rest period, like running them every 2 hours instead.
Ive got 3x 13x9 pans of colonizing coir/verm that look rhizo as hell, and will be ready to fruit soon. Just seeing if anyone would like to chime in. Also, ive since purchased and calibrated better analog hygros for these tests.
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blojo02184
Big Red



Registered: 05/15/13
Posts: 3,525
Loc: Maine
Last seen: 10 months, 2 days
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18874038 - 09/21/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey dude, Thought id chime in. First off, nice setup. Second, what is the height on those? A 3" depth is preferred for substrate. And your going to want about a foot or foot and half of open space for them to grow. So relatively, ~20"
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: blojo02184]
#18875920 - 09/22/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You bring up the biggest problem with this rig: drawer height. They are about 7.5" tall. Im using a sub depth of 1.5" in 2" deep pans. I think 1.5 will be deep enough as ive seen great results on this forum from depths even smaller. And ya know its likely closer to 1.75. But yeah that only gives them around 5 inches to grow. Nothing i can really do, just harvest a bit early once they reach the top. Im still curious if 45 min cycles of saturation is long enough for absorbtion. I know it will work well as a pin trigger since its having surface evaporation every hour. And if the sub is hydrated properly, ive read that contains all the water theyll need. So you think im good to go?
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blojo02184
Big Red



Registered: 05/15/13
Posts: 3,525
Loc: Maine
Last seen: 10 months, 2 days
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18876114 - 09/22/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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How much air you pumping through that thing????
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shroomsisay
Stranger


Registered: 01/20/12
Posts: 713
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: MagicMike407]
#18876271 - 09/22/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MagicMike407 said: You bring up the biggest problem with this rig: drawer height. They are about 7.5" tall. Im using a sub depth of 1.5" in 2" deep pans. I think 1.5 will be deep enough as ive seen great results on this forum from depths even smaller. And ya know its likely closer to 1.75. But yeah that only gives them around 5 inches to grow. Nothing i can really do, just harvest a bit early once they reach the top. Im still curious if 45 min cycles of saturation is long enough for absorbtion. I know it will work well as a pin trigger since its having surface evaporation every hour. And if the sub is hydrated properly, ive read that contains all the water theyll need. So you think im good to go?
I would cut out the center bar on the drawers and connect two together then you will have 15" but only 3 tubs.
-------------------- I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. If your not living on the edge your taking up to much space!!
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blojo02184
Big Red



Registered: 05/15/13
Posts: 3,525
Loc: Maine
Last seen: 10 months, 2 days
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: shroomsisay]
#18877133 - 09/22/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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that or get PVC extenders in between each shelf. then use saran wrap and tape, or similar to keep in colonizing time. cuts slits in it to allow extra FAE.
but this is all hypothesis! youre travelling in unknown territory. so write down your results, take pictures of your findings, and make a write up to share your knowledge with the community that has given everyone knowledge to grow on.
Good luck bud
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MagicMike407
mad scientist


Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 201
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: Suggestions regarding my new setup... [Re: blojo02184]
#18877246 - 09/22/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ive thought of a solution for the height. The top drawer isnt being used for anything, so if I cut the bottom out of it, it will give the second drawer twice the height to grow in. if i have a drawer that reaches the top but still seems to be growing, i can just slide it in the top spot where it has greater clearance. I imagine this will also help with the "top drawer becoming more saturated" problem since im doubling its volume by connecting its airspace with the tops. Im happy with this solution.
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