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Offlines240779
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Book on the psychiatry industry
    #18711280 - 08/15/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)
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Text version is EPUB, a format growing in popularity, specially made for portable devices. Can be opened on a computer using Mobipocket Reader. See attached.

Audio book version: http://depositfiles.com/folders/4BUPJ9Z2I


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Anonymous #1

Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: s240779]
    #18714049 - 08/16/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

A friend let me borrow a copy of that a year back... the gist of it is what most people on this forum have sniffed out already.  Pharmaceuticals are bad, they make mental illness worse, create more long-term issues, only reason it's still around is because it makes people a lot of money.  If you have a mental illness it's better to do your best to ignore it than to get help.

A shitty reality but a good read for skeptics.


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InvisiblePsilopsychosis
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1] * 2
    #18716178 - 08/16/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
A friend let me borrow a copy of that a year back... the gist of it is what most people on this forum have sniffed out already.  Pharmaceuticals are bad, they make mental illness worse, create more long-term issues, only reason it's still around is because it makes people a lot of money.  If you have a mental illness it's better to do your best to ignore it than to get help.

A shitty reality but a good read for skeptics.




:whippedcreamhead:

That is fucking retarded. You can't just ignore mental illness anymore then you can ignore a physical illness.
Psychiatry isn't great but in my experience most people can't handle the alternative.
If it wasn't for psychiatry there would be a lot more suicides/involuntary committed schizophrenics/homeless people.

You need to get off your soap box and actually think about what you are saying.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Psilopsychosis]
    #18716720 - 08/16/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilopsychosis said:
:whippedcreamhead:

That is fucking retarded. You can't just ignore mental illness anymore then you can ignore a physical illness.
Psychiatry isn't great but in my experience most people can't handle the alternative.
If it wasn't for psychiatry there would be a lot more suicides/involuntary committed schizophrenics/homeless people.

You need to get off your soap box and actually think about what you are saying.




I didn't say it's possible to ignore a mental illness, I just stated that it's better long-term to do your best to ignore it.  Not because you'll get better, but because when other people find out, it only ends up getting worse, so if you can find ways to cover it up and hide it from people, that's currently the best approach for self-preservation.  I understand the desperation a person needs to have to take psychotropic drugs, but it often only gets worse by letting people try and tinker with your brain chemistry when they admit they don't understand what it is they're playing with.  No point getting into a debate about it, the science to back the fallacies of popular psychiatric belief is there.  We can either look into new means of assisting the sick, or continue using treatments that simply put, don't work most of the time, and often create new problems.

Either way, people have a right to be informed of the good and bad of a health resource, and books like what the OP have provided give solid, unbiased, scientific evidence that contradicts a lot of what the health system currently feeds to people in regards to mental illness and available treatments.  Not in inflammatory manners, but dry, mechanical procedures that produce unnerving results.

You can call it fucking retarded, a soapbox, or a poorly conceived opinion, and that's your call to make.  In a forum that's generally inhabited by people who go against popular opinion and ingest mushrooms for betterment of self and consider themselves free-thinkers, I'm always amused to find a poster who unabashedly shuts down unpopular opinions in the way you attempted to, really just because they're unpopular and disconcerting.


Edited by Anonymous (08/16/13 10:36 PM)


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InvisiblePsilopsychosis
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18718581 - 08/17/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Ok well I apologize for calling your stance retarded. That was unnecessary.

I was however not calling you out because it is revolutionary and it hurt my comfortable assumptions about the magic of modern psychiatric medicine. I called you out because I hear this stance all the fucking time and it is my opinion that it is bullshit.

Of course psychiatry is bullshit. I don't need to read a book to make that startling realization. I can just ask my psychiatrist (in a respectful tone of course)  any number of questions and the stench of bullshit will become far too strong to ignore.

Why does psychosis damage some people's cognitive faculties but not others?
Why do some people react to some drugs but not others?
Why does symptom come to the surface on drug X but not drug Y and why does a symptom I've never seen before come up on drug Y?
How can you diagnose someone with a disease with no proof?

The answer to any hard question from any mental health nurse, psychiatrist and psychologist is, of course:

"We do not know. We do not understand much about the brain, son."

It is actually incredibly depressing. I have half a dozen friends with schizophrenia or unspecified psychosis and the trend seems to be to spend about two-weeks to a month on a drug, then switch, repeat, over and over again until they put the kid on clozapine. I don't know if you know much about clozapine but it is one of the most powerful anti-psychotics and it also has some of the worst side-effects. It makes you sleep like 14 hours a day, have gain epic weight and also dicks around terribly with your white blood cell count. So you have to get blood tested every two-weeks to see how your blood is. Isn't that fucked up? Worst part of all is that some people don't even react well to that drug, so they just get doses increased until well I guess you get involuntarily committed to a mental hospital for years I guess.


So I agree with you on that point but my problem with this stance is that it offers absolutely no solutions at all.

Our western culture is so materialistic that it thinks it can find a miracle drug in psychedelics but life doesn't work like that man.

Psychosis is 33% bio-chemical, 33% psychological, 33% spiritual. The remaining 1% I do not understand to be honest but it might be luck. That is my experience with it at least. I imagine that if you are a devout atheist (nothing wrong with that) spirituality would take a much smaller percentage, but that doesn't matter.

That is why these psychiatrists are scratching their heads, completely stumped because they are only treating a small part of the illness. They are not addressing the spiritual or psychological issues behind the psychosis.

To recover from psychosis, one either builds a gigantic fucking wall to keep it from coming back (think Pink, from The Wall) or they tear apart their deeply held beliefs and ego until they find something that is solid enough to be a foundation.  I don't think most people can handle the latter option. People with psychosis are not much different from any other demographic. They are materialistic  not because there is something wrong with them, just that almost everyone nowadays is materialistic. Because of this materialism, all they can do is take the drugs and build a very tall wall.

I used psilocybin mushrooms extensively in high school to deal with depression and bring me closer to God. Along the way I learned to ignore the hallucinations and use the HPPD as a sort of heightened awareness.  As a result, I don't see gremlins or hear voices and I have learned to live with some shitty depression. A lot of my trips had a manic element but one trip was all mania and grandiosity. I later had a flashback that triggered my first manic episode.

I could probably go off my meds and be ok, but I have too  many people keeping tabs on me and our culture has no medicine man, guru, shaman, whatever to talk with to keep one grounded in the spiritual and material realities. If I get a little hypomanic my circle of care shits a gigantic brick and ups my meds or switches them. So I have to be incredibly careful.





So that is why I will stay on abilify for the time being.
:yinyang:


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InvisiblePsilopsychosis
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Psilopsychosis]
    #18718586 - 08/17/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry for being a dick though.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Psilopsychosis]
    #18719027 - 08/17/13 02:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Don't worry about it... any time mental illness gets discussed there's a lot of emotion involved.  Everyone knows someone who has a mental illness, or has personally gone through it, and I think we end up taking our frustrations out in debate because what else can we do about it right now?

One thing I remember the book touching on was genuine rehab centers for the mentally ill, before medication was bigger... there were places that were like monasteries, so people who had psychotic breaks went to these beautiful getaways for a month or two where they were treated with respect and dignity, while having a space to learn to cope with their illness, and then released back into society.  Not all of them became high-functioning but the recovery rate as opposed to medication was much higher, with relapse rates being lower.

The problem with that is the time it takes... I think that's why meds are so popular.  You can prescribe it to someone within 30 minutes of meeting them, and then schedule a follow-up meeting in four weeks for a 15 minute catch-up and refill.  Too many people, not enough time.

Also there are ways to measure if someone has the disease or not... apparently MRI's of schizophrenics and the chronically depressed show different brain imaging and in the case of schizophrenia the size of certain parts of the brain are different (schizophrenics' have smaller frontal lobes I think).  As for the chronically depressed people they call it a chemical imbalance, usually citing it as a serotonin imbalance, but there were tests run to measure that as well and they found no difference in serotonin levels between the chronically depressed and people who were deemed "normal" and "happy".  Which makes it seem more like environmental/intellectual causes, rather than obvious physical ones, which means, at least in the majority of cases, depression probably isn't a disease, just how a person has become based on life experience, and the only way to really change that is to give them better life experiences or find a way to let them re-live life so they can maybe have a better one.

Which is why, I think, it's easier to just keep plugging the "chemical imbalance" theory - it may have been proven wrong several times (at least in the case of depression and anxiety), but it's pretty depressing to tell people the reality of it.

This isn't to say that I think it's hopeless for people who are depressed or have anxiety, but I don't think there's a quick fix.  Society preaches that we do have tools to accelerate the process (in mood medication), and people want to believe this because it makes it sound like any rough-patches in life can be more easily overcome.  But, like you (at least if I'm inferring correctly), I don't think that works.  I think people need to take time to build themselves up and overcome it.  Some people are socially anxious because they lack social skills.  Some people are depressed because they can't hold a job, are in a relationship they no longer find fulfilling, or have lost their sense of purpose in life.  Some people can exhibit bi-polar behaviors because they're going through an emotional crisis and the extreme stress makes them temporarily portray themselves as mentally-ill when they really just need time to figure it out and get through their emotional state.  Schizophrenia is an interesting one, because you end up experiencing visual and auditory hallucinations, but I think this too can sometimes be the mind responding to temporary, extreme duress, as opposed to a full-blown disease (which isn't to say it can't be a disease).

If you haven't read the book, I'd suggest reading it, if for nothing else but to have an in-depth, scientific explanation from another viewpoint.


Edited by Anonymous (08/17/13 02:30 PM)


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18720186 - 08/17/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
A friend let me borrow a copy of that a year back... the gist of it is what most people on this forum have sniffed out already.  Pharmaceuticals are bad, they make mental illness worse, create more long-term issues, only reason it's still around is because it makes people a lot of money.  If you have a mental illness it's better to do your best to ignore it than to get help.

A shitty reality but a good read for skeptics.




Hah. That statement is a laugh.

When my father was a young man he had panic attacks so badly that he could not even walk into a room of people without suffering. Eventually the doctors prescribed him a low dose of Klonopin(0.5mg) and his entire life changed. He was finally able to communicate with people, avoid panic attacks, and ultimately he worked his way to manage around 70-100 employees for the Department of Environmental Protection and made 90,000 dollars a year. He took the drug his entire life and is still taking it while he currently basks in retirement, a happy old man.


So much for your hypothesis. :shrug:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: XUL]
    #18721888 - 08/18/13 07:15 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Anonymous said:
A friend let me borrow a copy of that a year back... the gist of it is what most people on this forum have sniffed out already.  Pharmaceuticals are bad, they make mental illness worse, create more long-term issues, only reason it's still around is because it makes people a lot of money.  If you have a mental illness it's better to do your best to ignore it than to get help.

A shitty reality but a good read for skeptics.




Hah. That statement is a laugh.

When my father was a young man he had panic attacks so badly that he could not even walk into a room of people without suffering. Eventually the doctors prescribed him a low dose of Klonopin(0.5mg) and his entire life changed. He was finally able to communicate with people, avoid panic attacks, and ultimately he worked his way to manage around 70-100 employees for the Department of Environmental Protection and made 90,000 dollars a year. He took the drug his entire life and is still taking it while he currently basks in retirement, a happy old man.


So much for your hypothesis. :shrug:




NOTICE something? He had to keep taking the drug. As though his 'anciety' was a biological disease. Where's the proof of that? there isn't any. Someone who driks or tokes or takes heroin could say the same thing. But the ROOTS of why your dad felt that anxiety isn't addressed. he is made rather a life-long patient dependent on a pharma drug prescribed by a shrink to be 'normal'. And what this also does is back-up the myth. What about those who get terrible affects from the drug like this person:


Quote:


“Klonopin ruined my lie. It takes away your drive, and in the morning, you don't want to get out of bed, because you feel so groggy. I don't even know what it's like to feel normal. This is my world. Things don't get me as excited as most people because I'm in a constant state of sedation. It should never have been prescribed for long-term use.”

― Robert Whitaker, Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America




Now please understand, I at least am not saying that people like your dad who chose to take that drug should not be allowed to take it, I am rather saying there MUST be informed consent. Informed consent is the person knowing ALL the information. In your dad's case it would include the reality that anxiety is not a biological disease, and there is no medical science to prove that is the case. I assume you would not be against people knowing this?


Edited by zzripz (08/18/13 07:16 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18721900 - 08/18/13 07:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I find your 'critique' of biopsychiatry when you seem to share their belief that MRIscans show that 'depressed' people and 'schizophrenic' people have different sized brains contradictory. But rather look here:

Quote:

More Evidence That Antipsychotics Shrink the Brain: [emphasis mine]
European researchers who reviewed 43 imaging studies of first-episode psychosis found evidence that antipsychotics cause a decrease in gray matter volumes in the brain. Seventy-five percent of the studies of patients who were receiving antipsychotics or had taken the drugs found a decrease in gray matter volumes; only 25% of studies in which most of the patients were drug naive or drug-free “reported such abnormalities.” The abnormalities, the researchers noted, “were significantly more severe in medicated patients.” They observed that antipsychotics may “reduce frontal cerebral blood flow,” and speculated that this “could be a mechanism underlying smaller brain tissue volumes.”




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Offlines240779
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: zzripz]
    #18722160 - 08/18/13 09:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)



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Anonymous #1

Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: zzripz]
    #18722248 - 08/18/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
I find your 'critique' of biopsychiatry when you seem to share their belief that MRIscans show that 'depressed' people and 'schizophrenic' people have different sized brains contradictory. But rather look here:

Quote:

More Evidence That Antipsychotics Shrink the Brain: [emphasis mine]
European researchers who reviewed 43 imaging studies of first-episode psychosis found evidence that antipsychotics cause a decrease in gray matter volumes in the brain. Seventy-five percent of the studies of patients who were receiving antipsychotics or had taken the drugs found a decrease in gray matter volumes; only 25% of studies in which most of the patients were drug naive or drug-free “reported such abnormalities.” The abnormalities, the researchers noted, “were significantly more severe in medicated patients.” They observed that antipsychotics may “reduce frontal cerebral blood flow,” and speculated that this “could be a mechanism underlying smaller brain tissue volumes.”






To be honest I didn't completely understand what it is you're trying to say with your opening there - if you were disagreeing or agreeing?  Your post seems to agree in a sense that medication can essentially cause more problems than it helps, especially when it results in negative brain changes...

But for schizophrenia vs normal, here's one example:

http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/11/3/195/F1.expansion.html

Taken from http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/11/3/195.full

This isn't right out of birth, but some years after a person has been suffering from schizophrenia, the brain shows more visual differences.

And for depression: https://www.ohiohealth.com/PageLayouts/Mayo.aspx?id=6986

This isn't to say MRI scans are a means to diagnose (see: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/18/health/psychology/18imag.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0), but there are visual differences between "healthy" and "mentally ill" brains - it's a matter of further isolating what differences are related to the illness, and then figuring out what we can do about it to more directly address it in a more scientific approach, instead of talking to someone who diagnoses based on words and prescribes doses of medication and hopes for the best.  There's been some recent talk about how mental illness may not necessarily be the direct result of "chemical imbalances" anyway (which is a belief that took hold in the 1950s, has been disproved/proven/disproved/proven enough to make it a shaky theory at best, yet it's continually preached because what else does psychiatry have to sound legitimate right now?), but instead the result of circuits in the brain literally being turned off, and that causing issues.  So instead of boosting power in the brain, perhaps we need to find all the broken circuits and reactivate them (like if a fuse shorts in an electrical circuit - you can pump as much power as you want into it, it won't function properly until the blown fuse is replaced).

If that theory turns out to be true, then it means that we've spent the last 40ish years treating mentally ill patients with methods that have been considered, on the whole, more harmful than helpful.  I have a variety of possible reasoning for this, but this post has already gotten pretty long, so I'll just leave a couple links to add insight to this potential discovery:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628954.300-target-faulty-brain-circuits-to-treat-mental-illness.html#.UhD843_08mg
http://alert.psychiatricnews.org/2013/06/miswired-brain-circuits-may-lead-to.html


Also, glad that the drug helped your dad... the issue is that success like that is not typical.  Especially with Klonopin, that's a drug that's known to cause severe issues after the very short-term for a lot of people.  Your dad is, well, unlucky to have mental illness, but lucky to take a drug that'd make most people worse, and find real quality-of-life success with it (clinical success is generally sedation and reduced agitation, which often doesn't translate to the ability to hold a career, live independently, and maintain relationships like healthy people).

That isn't standard.  It's actually pretty rare.


Edited by Anonymous (08/18/13 11:13 AM)


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1] * 1
    #18722512 - 08/18/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Good luck while doing your best to ignore these diseases. Only medication or miracle can help you when you have them.


--------------------
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My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18722538 - 08/18/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But the ROOTS of why your dad felt that anxiety isn't addressed




Sure they were, by a psychologist counselor.

Quote:

I am rather saying there MUST be informed consent. Informed consent is the person knowing ALL the information




And he, according to his own account, was informed. He saw many doctors and many psychologists who explained to him many ideas. And I was counseled when before I ever took Klonopin to battle the exact same issue as my father. I had to go through a process of therapy and counseling.



Quote:

“Klonopin ruined my lie. It takes away your drive, and in the morning, you don't want to get out of bed, because you feel so groggy




This person's account is extremely trivial.

Different drugs effect different people differently. Klonopin does not make me groggy at all. In fact since I have been taking it I have been able to sleep an uninterrupted 8 hours and when I wake up I pop out of bead ready to take on the day. I haven't slept so well since I was 17 years old; 10 years ago. And since I have been able to sleep I have been feeling better in the weight room, probably because my body has been able to actually repair during solid sleep. And since my body and mind now get rest I find that my anxiety is even less and that I don't need to take the medication as often.

Ever since I started the drug/counseling I have been doing things in my life that I never thought I could do. It seems to me that I am following in my father's footsteps.


I think what it comes down to for a person with social anxiety is: are you willing to be addicted temporarily or permanently to a drug in order to fulfill your life goals. I am. The results for my father and I have been profound and life changing.


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InvisibleThe Lizard King
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18722540 - 08/18/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Hey anon1, quit Googling all the info for your responses and then editing them to sound smart.

Also, why are you even posting anonymously?

Is it because you're "ignoring" your mental illness and are afraid of posting without anonymity? :paranoid:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18722579 - 08/18/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Can you not see how they are now trying to yet again move the goalposts whilst maintaining the myth we are robots which can become 'defective' and need their 'treatment'?

You admit--rightly--that the 'chemical imbalance' BS is exactly that, bullshit? It was all phony from the beginning yet reams have been written about it by the same scamsters pushing the myth. masquerading as medical science, which they still do.

But NOW they are trying to create a 'new' nyth 'ohhh no not that. NOW it is electrical circuits in the brain'. Can you not see this is the same old crap?

They are looking at at problems of living as biological diseases and thus this absolves them and you and peoples familiesm who scapegoat people with 'mental illnesses', and divide 'them' from the 'norms' looking deeper at the culture they get paid by and operate in?


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Anonymous #1

Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: The Lizard King]
    #18722620 - 08/18/13 12:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

“Klonopin ruined my lie. It takes away your drive, and in the morning, you don't want to get out of bed, because you feel so groggy




This person's account is extremely trivial.

Different drugs effect different people differently.



If we write off negative experiences as trivial, then should we also write off positive experiences as trivial?

Quote:

The Lizard King said:
Hey anon1, quit Googling all the info for your responses and then editing them to sound smart.



Not Googling for info, I'm googling for the info I've used to form some of my opinions.  If I post information I've gathered without providing some kind of source, then I might as well be saying I'm providing an uninformed opinion, which to me is quite reckless.  It's also worth mentioning that not everything I discuss can be as easily validated as a link to a website, but when I'm able to do this, I like to, just so people can see the source and consider it for themselves.

I edit to add more detail where I feel it needs it and provide easier readability.

Quote:

The Lizard King said:
Also, why are you even posting anonymously?




I prefer posting anonymously when discussing hot topics - people end up associating a name with a point of view and as such, can end up writing off what that person has to say before giving it a chance to be weighed intellectually.

Quote:

The Lizard King said:
Is it because you're "ignoring" your mental illness and are afraid of posting without anonymity? :paranoid:




I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: XUL]
    #18722621 - 08/18/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

How do I know the roots of your dad's problems were addressed? In what way? By pushing a lifelong supply of drugs onto him? Where is the evidence anxiety is a biological disease? Understand? I am saying the shrinks who push drugs work withingn the biopsychiatric worldview. they dont DO roots. They too busy pushing drugs which they get a good cut from doing so.

If he was really informed he would know that being anxious is not a biological disease, as blushing isn't. If after being informed of that he yet still chooses to take their psychiatric medication for life then that is his informed choice. That is what I meant.

WHy is that person's account of the terrible effects of that drug 'trivial'? To you that may well be because your not them, but you seem not to have any empathy to even use that term.

I just dont get why you feel you need their pills. And why you think that other people having bad effects from them is trivial? Do you realize other terrible effects people have got from psychiatric medication? Or does this not matter to you. Often people have been forced to take it also. Are you thinking that is fine?

Do you know the roots of why you feel anxious? You are here, your dad isn't to answer my question. What did you psychologist tell you were the roots of your social anxiety?


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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18722641 - 08/18/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Also, I am curious. Why are you anonymous? Are you a doctor, and do you work in the mental health movement. You seem to me VERY contradictory--on one hand seeming to speak up for victims of biopsychiatry and on the other trying to show 'evidence' their brains are damaged and need treatment.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: zzripz]
    #18722645 - 08/18/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Can you not see how they are now trying to yet again move the goalposts whilst maintaining the myth we are robots which can become 'defective' and need their 'treatment'?

You admit--rightly--that the 'chemical imbalance' BS is exactly that, bullshit? It was all phony from the beginning yet reams have been written about it by the same scamsters pushing the myth. masquerading as medical science, which they still do.

But NOW they are trying to create a 'new' nyth 'ohhh no not that. NOW it is electrical circuits in the brain'. Can you not see this is the same old crap?

They are looking at at problems of living as biological diseases and thus this absolves them and you and peoples familiesm who scapegoat people with 'mental illnesses', and divide 'them' from the 'norms' looking deeper at the culture they get paid by and operate in?




Yes, I can see this, I can understand psychiatry as being nothing but a bullshit medicine trying to make social norms the only form of "healthy" and anything else mental illness.

But

I've also known and encountered people who came across as truly mentally ill, as in they literally seemed to suffer real symptoms as the result of something that could be explained by a crippled mind, in which case, while psychiatry may have a lot of bullshit, I also think it's beneficial to see if they can define "crippled mind" in a truly scientific sense that can actually be measured, and find ways to treat it.  Like a cast to a broken arm, insulin for a diabetic, or radiation therapy for a cancer patient.  Actual results, not the psychotropics that, as another poster said, can affect everyone differently, and as such, creates such wildly varying results that it's laughable to consider it scientific at all.

They could be moving goalposts, or they could be on to something new.  Time to create new treatments, and time for unbiased research to occur, will tell.


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Anonymous #2

Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18722659 - 08/18/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

PSYCHOLOGY IS PURE EVIL!!!!

Did yuo know that psychology is latin for "sin of the mind?"

Never take any medication ANYONE EVER gives you, it's all poison and they trying to kill you!

I know people who had a bad experience with therapy and now I know FOR A FACT that psycohogly doesn't work because it didn't work on like the 3 people I know that had sessions!!!!

BAN PSYCHOLOGY.

The-rapists just try to pry all the info out of you when you admit youre suicidal and that is NOT COOL, no one can know anything about you because they're only trying to KILL YOU with their "MEDICATION."


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Anonymous #1

Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: zzripz]
    #18722679 - 08/18/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Also, I am curious. Why are you anonymous? Are you a doctor, and do you work in the mental health movement. You seem to me VERY contradictory--on one hand seeming to speak up for victims of biopsychiatry and on the other trying to show 'evidence' their brains are damaged and need treatment.



Would my credentials be any better if I took off anonymity and my user display was "shroomplugger82"?

My stance is not contradictory.  If you can't rationalize it based on everything I've said, I'll put the best tl;dr I can here:

Many people are victims of bio-psychiatry because it hasn't advanced to the point that we're fully aware of what it is we're fiddling with, and as such it's irresponsible to continue doing so under the pretense of "scientific rationale".  However, that doesn't mean that people who are getting damaged by bio-psychiatry don't need any kind of help, it's that the help they need isn't available.  That's either because we haven't discovered it, or the practice is considered obsolete and is no longer in use (specifically referring to the mental health retreats).


Edited by Anonymous (08/18/13 12:29 PM)


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #1] * 1
    #18723751 - 08/18/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

WHy is that person's account of the terrible effects of that drug 'trivial'? To you that may well be because your not them, but you seem not to have any empathy to even use that term.




No, it's trivial to our discussion because it is only one man's account. If you showed me a study of 10,000 people who reported negative effects then I might be persuaded.

Quote:

I just dont get why you feel you need their pills




Who is they? who is their? The evil psychiatrists and doctors? lol

Because it makes me function better. One example of myself:

-A terrified recluse who has panic attacks in class so bad that he cannot pay attention to his lectures VS a relaxed individual who makes great grades, socializes with his classmates, and partakes in many activities he never thought he could-

That was my transformation.

If you don't like the pills then don't take the pills. :shrug:



--------------------
TRUMP 2020


Edited by XUL (08/18/13 05:44 PM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Posts: 8,292
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Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: XUL]
    #18725833 - 08/19/13 02:25 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It is NOT just one account. There are MANY accounts how psychiatric drugs have done and continue to do harm. And they are highly addictive and can cause people to be violent and commit suicide. Read some literature about it. If you did you would know people who have been diagnosed with a collection of labels by shinks which they routinely change according to which shrink they see ---which doesn't happen in real medical diagnoses, where doctors will agree because of medical tests--have successfully got OFF their medication and lead creatively maladjusted lives, DESPITE being told by the shrinks they saw that they would need to be on medication for life!

MAYbe the person in your example doesn't deep down wanna be the good little scholar with the good grades, and the good career bla bla? Maybe that is his parents dream that she is doing to please them, and that is one of the roots of her anxiety, and s/he may even be unconscious of not wanting to do it hence the inner tension. Life is far more complex than relying on fukin pills to make you conform to whatever is expected of you by this insane culture.

As I keep saying, IF you want to take pills for life that is your choice. But also be aware that the 'diagnoses' you and your dad had regarding having 'mental illnesses'---there is absolutely no medical science to support them.


Edited by zzripz (08/19/13 02:37 AM)


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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #18725982 - 08/19/13 04:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
PSYCHOLOGY IS PURE EVIL!!!!

Did yuo know that psychology is latin for "sin of the mind?"

Never take any medication ANYONE EVER gives you, it's all poison and they trying to kill you!

I know people who had a bad experience with therapy and now I know FOR A FACT that psycohogly doesn't work because it didn't work on like the 3 people I know that had sessions!!!!

BAN PSYCHOLOGY.

The-rapists just try to pry all the info out of you when you admit youre suicidal and that is NOT COOL, no one can know anything about you because they're only trying to KILL YOU with their "MEDICATION."




Did you know that pizza is latin for "sin of the bowels". I know three people who got sick from eating pizza. This makes me an expert in knowing with absolute certainty that all pizza is evil and will make you sick. Don't eat pizza, it should be banned.

:facepalm: Sorry, I couldn't resist but to get on the "let's be ridiculous and spread misinformation" bandwagon.


--------------------


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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: zzripz]
    #18726000 - 08/19/13 04:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
It is NOT just one account. There are MANY accounts how psychiatric drugs have done and continue to do harm. And they are highly addictive and can cause people to be violent and commit suicide. Read some literature about it. If you did you would know people who have been diagnosed with a collection of labels by shinks which they routinely change according to which shrink they see ---which doesn't happen in real medical diagnoses, where doctors will agree because of medical tests--have successfully got OFF their medication and lead creatively maladjusted lives, DESPITE being told by the shrinks they saw that they would need to be on medication for life!

MAYbe the person in your example doesn't deep down wanna be the good little scholar with the good grades, and the good career bla bla? Maybe that is his parents dream that she is doing to please them, and that is one of the roots of her anxiety, and s/he may even be unconscious of not wanting to do it hence the inner tension. Life is far more complex than relying on fukin pills to make you conform to whatever is expected of you by this insane culture.

As I keep saying, IF you want to take pills for life that is your choice. But also be aware that the 'diagnoses' you and your dad had regarding having 'mental illnesses'---there is absolutely no medical science to support them.




And there are MANY accounts of how psychiatric drugs have done and continue to do benefit to people.

Psych is far from a perfect science and diagnosis of mental illness is more complicated due to there rarely being a tangible thing to measure. But medical science has plenty of screw ups too. There are plenty of false positives and misdiagnoses in medicine, and also deaths and harm in medicine from incorrect medical procedures or inappropriate prescriptions of drugs. Your comparison of psych industry with medical industry is somewhat misguided and naive.

But of course let's ignore the benefits that can be provided for peole from therapy and even psych-meds and lets ignore that the even the medical industry causes a lot of harm... because all these details would contradict and water down the preconceived beliefs you hold and are trying in vain to convince others of.


--------------------


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Mufungo]
    #18726281 - 08/19/13 07:25 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MAYbe the person in your example doesn't deep down wanna be the good little scholar with the good grades, and the good career bla bla?




Well, look at you; the internet psychologist.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Mufungo]
    #18726293 - 08/19/13 07:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
It is NOT just one account. There are MANY accounts how psychiatric drugs have done and continue to do harm. And they are highly addictive and can cause people to be violent and commit suicide. Read some literature about it. If you did you would know people who have been diagnosed with a collection of labels by shinks which they routinely change according to which shrink they see ---which doesn't happen in real medical diagnoses, where doctors will agree because of medical tests--have successfully got OFF their medication and lead creatively maladjusted lives, DESPITE being told by the shrinks they saw that they would need to be on medication for life!

MAYbe the person in your example doesn't deep down wanna be the good little scholar with the good grades, and the good career bla bla? Maybe that is his parents dream that she is doing to please them, and that is one of the roots of her anxiety, and s/he may even be unconscious of not wanting to do it hence the inner tension. Life is far more complex than relying on fukin pills to make you conform to whatever is expected of you by this insane culture.

As I keep saying, IF you want to take pills for life that is your choice. But also be aware that the 'diagnoses' you and your dad had regarding having 'mental illnesses'---there is absolutely no medical science to support them.




And there are MANY accounts of how psychiatric drugs have done and continue to do benefit to people.

Psych is far from a perfect science and diagnosis of mental illness is more complicated due to there rarely being a tangible thing to measure. But medical science has plenty of screw ups too. There are plenty of false positives and misdiagnoses in medicine, and also deaths and harm in medicine from incorrect medical procedures or inappropriate prescriptions of drugs. Your comparison of psych industry with medical industry is somewhat misguided and naive.

But of course let's ignore the benefits that can be provided for peole from therapy and even psych-meds and lets ignore that the even the medical industry causes a lot of harm... because all these details would contradict and water down the preconceived beliefs you hold and are trying in vain to convince others of.





I am actually also critical of the established medical model per se, because it is based on treating people as machines, so don't assume. HOWEVER, it is very so that if a medical diagnosis for say bowel cancer is agreed  by ONE doctor in America, it will usually be so by another doctor in China, or Istanbul, or anywhere, because there are medical tests to show prove it. Yes?

However, it is very common for individuals in America --etc-- in one CITY who are classed as 'mentally ill', to receive different "diagnoses" from different psychiatrists. Different labels. And this can happen because it is subjective and there are no tests, so that one shrink canclaim what ya got is one thing, and another chrink will say something different, and there can be combinations of labels---that will get the person more drugs

As for your argument that some people choose the 'medications' and claim they help them. Well then they should have the freedom to take them, but if you have not understood, because I have repeated this several times in this thread by now, I am for informed consent. This means that they would ALSO know that there is no medical scientific evidence which proves what they've been diagnosed with are real biological diseases! Because if a shrink has convinced someone they have a real biological illness that requires medication for life, then that is uninformed information, because it is not true.

This is why psychiatric survivors from Mindfreedom went on a hungerstrike to challenge the Psychiatric establishment (APA) to PROVE their case that mental illness was biological illness, and the APA failed to do so! Though would not, and still will not admit this is the case. But apparently this non-admittance or denial of the lack of medical science, and lying to people to make money, and have power-over others, who are not in-the-know, is NOT a mental disorder, with drugs at the ready to "treat" it---hmmm THAT's convenient isn't it--??!

You can find out all about this famous and very important Mindfreedom hungerstrike online.


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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: zzripz]
    #18726766 - 08/19/13 09:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
I am actually also critical of the established medical model per se, because it is based on treating people as machines, so don't assume.




I never said that you weren't critical of the established medical model. My comment related to how you were making an erroneous comparison between the medical field and the psychological field and then failed to admit that the reliability of diagnosis in the medical field isn't without its problems. 

Quote:

zzripz said:
HOWEVER, it is very so that if a medical diagnosis for say bowel cancer is agreed  by ONE doctor in America, it will usually be so by another doctor in China, or Istanbul, or anywhere, because there are medical tests to show prove it. Yes?





It would depend. How large is a cancer in your example? The size of a grapefruit, yeah, their diagnosis will most likely concur. Smaller than 10mm, then you might get a variety of opinions. Sometimes a diagnosis will be more straight forward and there will be more agreement between professionals, but it depends on the presentation and factors that can be observed.

Quote:

zzripz said:
However, it is very common for individuals in America --etc-- in one CITY who are classed as 'mentally ill', to receive different "diagnoses" from different psychiatrists. Different labels. And this can happen because it is subjective and there are no tests, so that one shrink canclaim what ya got is one thing, and another chrink will say something different, and there can be combinations of labels---that will get the person more drugs





Quote:

Mufungo said:
Psych is far from a perfect science and diagnosis of mental illness is more complicated due to there rarely being a tangible thing to measure.





The accuracy of a diagnosis in mental illness will depend on the presentation and what details the therapist is able to obtain and observe. Some situations it might be more obvious than other situations. Some situations therapists might agree easier than others. Psychology/psychiatry, relative to medicine, is still in its infancy. So yeah, for peace of mind someone should get a second or third opinion for sure and explore all their options, as they should even with a medical diagnosis.

Quote:

zzripz said:
As for your argument that some people choose the 'medications' and claim they help them. Well then they should have the freedom to take them, but if you have not understood, because I have repeated this several times in this thread by now, I am for informed consent. This means that they would ALSO know that there is no medical scientific evidence which proves what they've been diagnosed with are real biological diseases! Because if a shrink has convinced someone they have a real biological illness that requires medication for life, then that is uninformed information, because it is not true.





See, this is where you're confused about diagnosis, either medical or psychological. There doesn't need to be a diagnosis of a real biological disease most of the time. For example, when a person has flu like symptoms, the doctor does not conduct any tests to confirm that they have a flu before offering a diagnosis and treating it accordingly. If the person gets better, then great. If they don't get better, then further investigation and possibly a new diagnosis is formed. When someone feels psychologically unwell and present with a list of symptoms, then a therapist may make a diagnosis and suggest some form of treatment.

There seems to be the implication you're making, and please clarify if you're not, that there needs to be absolute certainty before taking action. We need to be absolutely certain about a diagnosis and have to be therefore absolutely certain about the effectiveness of a treatment. Well... that's of course just fantasy and shows a naive lack of understanding about how diagnostic/treatment system works.

Medical theories have evolved a long way from back when bad spirits were the proposed causes and leaches, blood letting, etc, were the preferred treatments... and they have a long way to go.

Psychological models have come a long way from where they started... and they have a long way to go. No progress will be made by throwing the baby out with the bathwater and abandoning the whole field. There is value within the field, and value in current treatments for a lot of people, but there are also people who don't benefit or perhaps are worse as a result of treatment. The same can happen in medicine. All of these details, the bad AND the good, need to be presented for someone to make an informed understanding. Everything you have written is quite lop sided and biased for someone to make a reasonably informed choice. So maybe you should try living up to the standards which you expect from others.

The issue you raise of informed consent can be carried out well or poorly depending on the practitioner and how they inform the client/patient will depend on the models to which they work with and the details upon which they used to make a diagnosis. But don't be further mistaken, informed consent and the effectiveness of a treatment are two different things. A treatment can be effective even if there is no informed consent and vice versa. You seem to be confusing this and saying, "the field of psychology/psychiatry is ALL shit because there's no way for absolute informed consent because of the subjective nature of the diagnostic process".


Quote:

zzripz said:
This is why psychiatric survivors from Mindfreedom went on a hungerstrike to challenge the Psychiatric establishment (APA) to PROVE their case that mental illness was biological illness, and the APA failed to do so! Though would not, and still will not admit this is the case. But apparently this non-admittance or denial of the lack of medical science, and lying to people to make money, and have power-over others, who are not in-the-know, is NOT a mental disorder, with drugs at the ready to "treat" it---hmmm THAT's convenient isn't it--??!

You can find out all about this famous and very important Mindfreedom hungerstrike online.




I don't want to detract from the seriousness of the issues and suffering of the people in Mindfreedom. But why would anyone respond to that sort of ridiculous demand when they so clearly don't have a grasp of how the medical or psychological process works. There is plenty of scientific evidence that physiology affects psychology and vice versa. There's plenty of studies that show how treatments are effective or not effective at treating different constellations of symptoms. There's plenty of research on the pros and cons, validity, and reliance of diagnosis. And there's continuing research to determine biological means for diagnosing different disorders... that have resulted in discoveries of fragile X syndrome, rett syndrome, smith-magenis syndrome, etc. But to expect at this time absolute proofs that ALL mental illness have a clear and determinant biological causes, then that's a little foolish and setting yourself up for disappointment.


--------------------


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Mufungo]
    #18730749 - 08/20/13 02:20 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I don't want to detract from the seriousness of the issues and suffering of the people in Mindfreedom. But why would anyone respond to that sort of ridiculous demand when they so clearly don't have a grasp of how the medical or psychological process works.




First question: Are you a doctor, a therapist, or do you work doing anything in the mental health movement? I don't, but I am just curious about as you seem to think you know so much.

and 2nd did you even read the Mindfreedom links I gave you? ALL of it?

and 3rdly, have you read ANYthing by the major critics of biopsychiatry, such as Thomas Szasz, R.D.Laing, or Dr Peter Breggin?
I can let you know what I have read, but would like to know what you have also?


Edited by zzripz (08/20/13 02:21 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Book on the psychiatry industry [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #18734330 - 08/20/13 09:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Did yuo know that psychology is latin for "sin of the mind?"

Did you know that you were wrong? The suffice -logy, as in every other discipline with the suffix, derives from the Greek word Logos, which is variously translated as word, reason, or inquiry. Psyche means mind or soul or butterfly in Greek, owing to its transformational as well as its beautiful nature. Psychelogy doesn't work grammatically, hence psychology - study of the mind. As far as "The-rapist" goes, I prefer 'Psycho the rapist,' personally. The shingle on my house reads "Psychotherapist," but I like to reframe it for people in jest of course. I am neither 'psycho' or a 'rapist.' :lol: BTW, it's best if you get your paranoia in check. It is, after all, delusional from where I'm sitting. :shrug: Just saying.

By the way, in Greek, the term for sin is hamartia. It is an archery reference which means 'missing the mark.' Since my name is Mark, I rather like the association. :wink:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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