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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: handwaveee]
    #18762018 - 08/26/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Without an idea independent of nature to own nature, there is no ownership. Period.

I know you guys don't get it and probably never will, but it is true regardless of your beliefs.

If you look and see why it is true rather than try to consider what is wrong with it to condone your own personal ownership, that is the power of your subjective reality. It is a self defense mechanism of "your" ego to protect itself.

No one here has actual evidence that an animal besides a human could even articulate ownership, let alone put it to use.

If you do have evidence then post up . . .

If you can look from a perspective beyond self, or your personal perspective and ideas you have about yourself, it should be fairly obvious, and even funny that you ever thought to own.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18762024 - 08/26/13 11:30 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

There isn't even really a self, let alone a self to own or be owned by you, and how is your idea or any idea for that matter, a product of nature more than a product of you?

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Offlinehandwaveee
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18762116 - 08/27/13 12:02 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

yeah I see what you are saying. Feelings and thoughts are independent of nature to "own" nature as you say.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18762409 - 08/27/13 02:44 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
There isn't even really a self, let alone a self to own or be owned by you, and how is your idea or any idea for that matter, a product of nature more than a product of you?





Because you are nature itself.  So any "illusions" "you" have are also natural.

I know you guys don't get it and probably never will, but it is true regardless of your beliefs.

What an arrogant and really dumb thing to state as fact.  As if you are somehow superior by default.  It reminds me of our PM conversations. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (08/27/13 03:07 AM)

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18762425 - 08/27/13 02:58 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

To own does infer an independence from nature but that's the whole point of it. I would suggest as messed up as humans may appear that we are actually more 'evolved' than other animals. Would a lion survey his land considering the fact that one day it's bones would litter the plain?

I think there's something to the idea of dispossessing ones self of whatever isn't needed but to suggest we look to animals as a model of nature to uphold for ourselves seems to be the wrong direction if there is a right one. There's plenty of conflict in nature. Ownership is I suppose down at it's core just another type of conflict, like territorial disputes and black holes sucking up it's neighbors.


--------------------
rahz

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"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18762681 - 08/27/13 06:41 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Without an idea independent of nature to own nature, there is no ownership. Period.




You probably should have left it with a question mark instead. :shrug:

Quote:


I know you guys don't get it and probably never will, but it is true regardless of your beliefs.




No it isn't. It's not true, regardless of beliefs.

Quote:


If you look and see why it is true rather than try to consider what is wrong with it to condone your own personal ownership




I enjoyed your speculation on the motives that others here have for not agreeing with you, but I found the speculation to be irrelevant and unsubstantiated.

Quote:


No one here has actual evidence that an animal besides a human could even articulate ownership, let alone put it to use.




You've already been presented evidence. You stopped responding to the discussion regarding that evidence. In other words, you dropped the ball.

Quote:


If you can look from a perspective beyond self, or your personal perspective and ideas you have about yourself, it should be fairly obvious, and even funny that you ever thought to own.




Fairly obvious and funny, eh? I doubt it. Let's recap.

Humans symbolize phenomena that they observe taking place in reality. The concept of ownership evolved as an explanation for a specific kind of behavior that both animals and humans engage in in a certain circumstance. Ownership refers to the circumstance in which an animal or human identifies a certain territory, source of food, or object as something that is of interest to themselves specifically, they seek to communicate this identity to others, and act aggressively or defensively when another human or animal would seek to use that something for themselves.

Humans, in their clever ingenuity, both to protect themselves from harm from others who behave possessively in regards to a particular object, and in communicating their own possessiveness to others, represented this natural, instinctual phenomenon with a symbol - the concept of ownership. As humans have evolved, the concept has evolved.

So, there you have it. Ownership is a natural phenomenon in as much as the dancing of subatomic particles is a natural phenomenon.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #18762696 - 08/27/13 06:50 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

hmmmm quite intriguing post fwg... i'm interested to see how teknix will respond
:popcorn:


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dripping with fantasy

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: quinn]
    #18762755 - 08/27/13 07:26 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

with the usual no doubt.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18763059 - 08/27/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I never really think about my things. I own them if someone asks other then that they are there. I don't think about owning them, they don't create any negatives in my life. The only things I truly own right now are a bunch of books, toothbrush, growing supplies, clothes. 

Ownership to me is they are in my possession, I purchased them, and if someone were to take them I would like to be asked first. Except for the toothbrush/growing supplies because I am in need of those things for my health. It would put me in a place that isn't healthy if I were to let someone else have or use them.

Sounds to me like you are also creating a subjective reality. How do you really know what's going on in peoples/creatures heads?

imo that definition of nature makes the definition moot.

Nature is without manmade creation, the definition is a manmade creation so how could it be an accurate definition of what is truly natural?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"

Edited by Sse (08/27/13 09:39 AM)

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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18763204 - 08/27/13 10:19 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

"If you can look from a perspective beyond self, or your personal perspective and ideas you have about yourself, it should be fairly obvious, and even funny that you ever thought to own. "

I see what you are getting at. It takes the conditioned self to apply any concept to anything because these are conditioned imputations built over time. Built by the self that has been created due to our relating to what we are able to perceive. Our perceptions often tell us more about ourselves then what we are viewing. We see like scenarios that relate to our concept but in the end it is only due to our thought/definition/conceptual imputation that we even understand things in the limited ways that we do.

If everything we create physically and mentally are unnatural then I agree it is apart from nature to own. It is also apart from nature to define nature. So then the sentence to me looks completely dependent on our conceptual makeup, which Ultimately could be nothing but delusion because we are being limited to our self make up. Which has been programmed through our lives by society past and present. Our perspectives only go so far, they are only in relation to our perceptions(I guess until we eliminate all conceptual thought). Where there is perception there is deception. We can only see so far with our limited world view.

"All thoughts and concepts are delusions, awareness is wisdom." Old Tibetan saying


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"

Edited by Sse (08/27/13 11:59 AM)

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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18763236 - 08/27/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Is there no scenario you can think of where you would say, "Hey can I have that back? That is mine?"

or is that completely un-condonable in your perspective?

If so then how do you define it? Or since it is to self oriented do you just decide not to define it? I guess even hunger is self oriented, or hygiene is self oriented, sickness is self oriented. Eliminate the self then none of these things will be a bother, bother won't even exist. Existing won't even exist, at least the thought of it. You might find your conceptual self starving to death or dying of a abscessed tooth but since there are no concepts or thoughts to arise it's a ok. Nirvana. But even the Buddha thought it was important to take care of your shell though I think he did rely on everyone else to provide this but that was a very different time. If we were to follow his example we would name our kid ball and chain and ditch our families to live at the whim of the world.

Our teeth are much more conditioned by fluoride these days so I imagine we'd be quicker to get cavities without constant cleaning. I can't even keep the cavities at bay with constant cleaning. I think my mouth would go to shit quick if I didn't care to own a toothbrush but the thought of owning the toothbrush is only to protect my toothbrush from thieves/someone else's unwarranted use, ultimately I understand that owning is temporary, we really are only using. But for the here and now I want to own my own toothbrush at the very least.

Existence is also a concept isn't it?

Without an idea independent from nature, is there anything in nature that exists naturally? edit: sorry this is confusing. All these ideas would be independent from nature.

I guess if all concepts aren't natural then how can we say? I think its all based on opinion. What's observable, what you want to call it, what you think is natural, how you define certain words. For all I know this is a computer simulation and my mind is what creates existence. Maybe when I die the game will be over and nothing will exist. I'll wake up attached to some chair like the matrix, be told it was all to build me stronger and would I like to go again? :biggrin:

Edited by Sse (08/27/13 08:10 PM)

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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18772169 - 08/29/13 08:54 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Okay. I suppose I said I would dip my tippy toes into this goddamned train wreck, so I will

Can anyone trying to argue OPs point define, WITHOUT USING THE WORD IN THE DEFINITION, what nature is? I can assume that "natural" things are things derived from nature, but there is no clear definition of nature itself.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: crumblebum]
    #18772237 - 08/29/13 09:33 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

What is nature? Everything that we can experience or be part of or connected to or can observe or that exists in any form.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (08/29/13 09:34 AM)

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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
    #18772244 - 08/29/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

And have you been arguing OPs point in this thread, Icelander? It's too easy if YOU just set the pins up for me.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: crumblebum]
    #18772816 - 08/29/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I am Icelander.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: crumblebum]
    #18772895 - 08/29/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
Okay. I suppose I said I would dip my tippy toes into this goddamned train wreck, so I will

Can anyone trying to argue OPs point define, WITHOUT USING THE WORD IN THE DEFINITION, what nature is? I can assume that "natural" things are things derived from nature, but there is no clear definition of nature itself.




I have already given the standard definition which is: Anything not caused by human kind. The opposite of natural being artificial. Natural sweetener: honey. Artificial sweetener: Splenda.

Of course, humans were caused by nature so I would argue (as I have) that the word nature is useless in a philosophical context. But if the word must be applied philosophically then it will mean A- everything (since humans were caused by nature... in which case the word is useless) or B- not-human in which case it is impossible for a human to have a natural thought. Obviously people tend to associate themselves with nature, at least when it suits their purpose but when one starts talking about one thing being natural and another thing not being natural it stinks of diversionary tactics and inflating the importance of one course of action over another. This is what religious people do.

This is why I have argued that if someone doesn't like something they should just say so. "I have a negative outlook towards ownership". So simple, except it doesn't carry the universal importance of saying "It ain't natural!" as though there's some Godly standard we can measure each thing by. Either humans are considered natural or not, but either way the point is moot.

If the OP had started the thread by listing the negatives of ownership we might have gotten to the heart of the matter, which is that ownership can also be highly diversionary and people can set themselves up with all manner of illusions to create an image of permanence to avoid their death anxiety. Maybe that's not such a bad thing. Maybe it is. So maybe let's work that angle.?:shrug:

To own does infer an independence from nature, and that is the point of it. The universe exploded guys. It's still one, but also in pieces. Paradox.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Rahz]
    #18772942 - 08/29/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Again, I'm looking for a definition from someone who agrees with OP, because the definition of nature, as you have pointed out, is the extremely shaky Jenga piece in his argument.

Either it's A, in which it's nonsense because humans come from nature, or it's B, and then becomes nonsense for further obvious reasons. Or it's C which is something I haven't thought of or anticipated but will annihilate with my mind.

Otherwise Rahz, A+ brainwork. Well thought out and well expressed.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: crumblebum]
    #18773237 - 08/29/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Or D =


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
    #18773241 - 08/29/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I think she wants the D.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18773361 - 08/29/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Although the idea that one can own a thing is naturally occurring, I find it none the less delusional(in a sense), as it only exists in abstract.
When you exit the sense of separateness, identity, born of the functions of our anterior frontal lobes, what does it become?

Are we any more separate entities fighting over territorial circuits and objects than we are living temporary agglomerations of atoms fighting over temporary agglomerations of atoms that on a sub-atomic level there is essentially no separateness between?
Aren't we in essence just... fighting over what we all are?

Where does this sense of self and ownership that is dependent on a small chunk of fatty tissue fit into the grand scheme of things?

Where is this, what we call 'a man' to say that he owns these things on his body? Did he and his sense of ownership ever truly exist at all?


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

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