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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineAra16w
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #19070003 - 11/01/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ownership is a fairly flimsy concept. If someone can take "it" from you or you're continuously paying for "it", then you don't own it as much as you like to believe you do.

If you truly owned land, why would you annually pay someone else for something that's yours? If you don't pay them, in this case the government and their property tax, they take it back from you. The conversation looks a little something like the following:

You: "I want it."
Government: "Nah, you can borrow it."
You: "But I WANT IT."

You'll undoubtedly play that game the rest of your life and they'll always be there to try and take what you think is yours when it was only stolen in the first place. The Native Americans had it right though. They didn't own the land, they were merely living on it, at least until a group with superior technology came along and savagely told them otherwise.

An asshole with a "it's mine now" mentality can fuck up your world pretty quick. That seems to be one of the major problems that got us into the state of existence we're in now. In a world of ownership people are concerned about what they can acquire rather than what they can use that's available to them naturally.

Ownerships causes both the rich and poor, people to starve to death, people to die from treatable illnesses, and good ole fashion all-around misery for the masses. The truth is that should we not feel compelled to get ahead of one another rather than treat each other like equals, we'd realize there's plenty of everything to go around and there always has been. Our species is still quite the unevolved monkey who repeats other monkeys ideas rather than generating his or her own. Whether or not the hurdle of ownership is ever to be overcome is yet to be seen.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Ara16w]
    #19070168 - 11/01/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If someone can take "it" from you or you're continuously paying for "it", then you don't own it as much as you like to believe you do.




Again, this is a mystical appeal to ownership, setting the bar higher than it actually is. Just like everything else in life ownership is transient. Nowhere in the definition of ownership will you find a clause that ends in 'forever and ever'.

Just like me having sex with a girl last week, that's no guarantee it will ever happen again.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 2,846
Loc: Flag
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #19070220 - 11/01/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
It does seem like society imposes it upon us, however is it really necessary or does it exist only through tradition?




In my opinion ownership is a tool to survive, if survival wasnt still a factor i think more people would see that everything is everything, for now ill continue to let myself be imposed on


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Rahz]
    #19070241 - 11/01/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

If someone can take "it" from you or you're continuously paying for "it", then you don't own it as much as you like to believe you do.




Again, this is a mystical appeal to ownership, setting the bar higher than it actually is. Just like everything else in life ownership is transient. Nowhere in the definition of ownership will you find a clause that ends in 'forever and ever'.

Just like me having sex with a girl last week, that's no guarantee it will ever happen again.




Forever and ever was not what I was saying. Ownerships implies that you possess something for the duration of your life unless you give it away, trade it, sell it, or dispose of it. If someone can take something from you that you claim to own, then the concept falls apart.

That's all ownership is anyway, a concept that humans subscribe to. It's not a real tangible thing. It exists because you give it the power to exist only within your mind, and what I was pointing out was that someone can come along and fuck up what you thought to exist proving it invalid.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Ara16w]
    #19071700 - 11/01/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ownerships implies that you possess something for the duration of your life unless you give it away, trade it, sell it, or dispose of it.




That's the legal basis of ownership in a fair society but in a more natural sense possession is 9/10ths of the 'law' which is the whole basis on which our opinions of ownership arose. As Fireworks God has pointed out several times ownership describes a relationship between a person/persons and a thing. If a relationship exists then ownership exists. There is no natural stipulation that any relationship will last for the duration of ones life. Such a stipulation would represent a straw man.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Rahz]
    #19074883 - 11/02/13 12:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
if a relationship exists then ownership exists. There is no natural stipulation that any relationship will last for the duration of ones life.



the first part u say is true i suppose, although i can have a relationship with a thing and not own it, did someone really argue the second part?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Does]
    #19075343 - 11/02/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Does said:
the first part u say is true i suppose, although i can have a relationship with a thing and not own it...




Exactly, but the question of ownership is a question of the type of relationship between the entity and the object. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #19079539 - 11/03/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god] * 1
    #19081296 - 11/03/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"Do you think you can worm your way out of them..."
:lol:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19084092 - 11/04/13 03:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #19088072 - 11/04/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Does said:
the first part u say is true i suppose, although i can have a relationship with a thing and not own it...




Exactly, but the question of ownership is a question of the type of relationship between the entity and the object. :wink:




Then what differentiates an entity from an object? You say you are owning your dog, but could the dog just as well be owning you?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #19088168 - 11/05/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Does said:
the first part u say is true i suppose, although i can have a relationship with a thing and not own it...




Exactly, but the question of ownership is a question of the type of relationship between the entity and the object. :wink:




Then what differentiates an entity from an object? You say you are owning your dog, but could the dog just as well be owning you?




It's unlikely your dog could have you put to sleep.  Unlike this thread.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19088203 - 11/05/13 12:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Does the dog have any ownership then?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #19088218 - 11/05/13 12:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Does the dog have any ownership then?




When the dog can put the leash on you, and take you to the doctor to be put to sleep, then and only then yes.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19088236 - 11/05/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So then, is it the right to kill or destroy something that justify's ownership? Or is it that ownership justify's a right to kill or destroy something?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #19088253 - 11/05/13 12:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So then, is it the right to kill or destroy something that justify's ownership? Or is it that ownership justify's a right to kill or destroy something?




It was for your own good.  You weren't going to live much longer anyway.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19088260 - 11/05/13 12:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well, by that logic parents should be allowed to kill their children?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #19088268 - 11/05/13 12:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Well, by that logic parents should be allowed to kill their children?




I think they already are, have you heard about abortion?  OK mom gets to decide.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19088279 - 11/05/13 12:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

To a certain extent, but the authority isn't as absolute and clear-cut as your previously posited analogy would presume.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #19088283 - 11/05/13 01:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
To a certain extent, but the authority isn't as absolute and clear-cut as your previously posited analogy would presume.




So, in other words, you got owned, but now want to snivel?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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