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crumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander] 1
#18739364 - 08/21/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can we establish, once and for all, what "nature" is and what it means to be "natural"? Because that's kind of the hanging point in any discussion about what is and isn't natural and in nature.
On a separate note:
Many animals have a territory in which they claim the usage of a single or multiple products, such as prey, plant matter, shelter, etc. They will defend this territory violently. They have the basic concept of ownership. (ONLY addressing this second point and not addressing the first one will be an immediate sign of pussing out altogether. The second point is clearly the weaker and easier one)
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Icelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: crumblebum]
#18739388 - 08/21/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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How do you suggest we establish that meaning?
I think your second paragraph shows that ownership is not independent from nature.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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crumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
#18739414 - 08/21/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have no suggestion. I see it being used over and over again in so many arguments, so I thought I'd pop into one of them and offer the challenge.
To me it's a dummy word, like "family values", it's impactful but hollowed out, ready for the listener to fill it in with their own meaning.
Hence I ask others for a solid meaning. I know what Hobbes means by the "state of nature", but I don't know what OP means by "nature".
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Rahz
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
#18739607 - 08/21/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think the issue of whether it's natural or not (it is) is different than whether it (the concept) is real/existing outside the mind (it's not) but the mind is a natural phenomena unless one believes the mind to be foreign to 'all of creation' so the concepts and practices of ownership naturally arise within the human mind. It could be reduced to a series of relationships which confer reliability, sentiment, stored value, etc. and each thing which is owned has a value of some sort, not always material. It's a good idea to see these ideas as opinions and not statements of universal truth but that makes them no less real as a metaphysical manifestation in the form of a series of relationships. Ownership does confer a sense of exclusion and separation, though not from 'all of existence', just parts of it. This bit of polarity IS what nature is doing!
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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crumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Rahz]
#18739720 - 08/21/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Gibberish.
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Sse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
#18739937 - 08/21/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
Do you understand that to own something there has to be an owner and an owned?
If nature cannot own itself, then an owner of nature cannot be natural.
It seems like the only thing that makes an owner and an owned in this context is the human language.
What happens when a territorial animal day after day is attacking and killing things that come into its chosen territory? Isn't there an owner and an owned? Or it just doesn't count because they haven't developed a way of speaking in words what they are expressing in action?
Even in this context we aren't really even going against nature because we never truly own anything.
I think it could be argued that nature does own its self, nature belongs to nature.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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teknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
#18740515 - 08/22/13 12:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
crumblebum said: Can we establish, once and for all, what "nature" is and what it means to be "natural"? Because that's kind of the hanging point in any discussion about what is and isn't natural and in nature.
On a separate note:
Many animals have a territory in which they claim the usage of a single or multiple products, such as prey, plant matter, shelter, etc. They will defend this territory violently. They have the basic concept of ownership. (ONLY addressing this second point and not addressing the first one will be an immediate sign of pussing out altogether. The second point is clearly the weaker and easier one)
What is natural is determined by nature. (rather than determined by products of nature) Do you disagree that it would be pointless for nature to own itself?
Animals protect their territory for many more reasons without the need of ownership, such as food, shelter, mates, water, protecting young, etc. and are never going around thinking that they own it, they are just a part or it. We are are part of nature until we try to own it, which to own something you have to have something separate from yourself to own.
I would like to ask you why don't that compilation of atoms continue to own after you are dead?
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teknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
#18740565 - 08/22/13 12:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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LOOK, it's not that hard to understand . . .
To have ownership we need two things . . . .
If one of those things is nature . . . .
There has to be something independent from nature . . . .
To own nature . . . .
That's where you come in!
Edited by teknix (08/22/13 01:03 AM)
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Rahz
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
#18740590 - 08/22/13 01:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Animals protect their territory for many more reasons without the need of ownership, such as food, shelter, mates, water, protecting young, etc. and are never going around thinking that they own it
How do you know what animals think and feel?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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teknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
#18740593 - 08/22/13 01:03 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you want to be real about it, the only owning going on is nature owning you.
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teknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Rahz]
#18740594 - 08/22/13 01:04 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Animals protect their territory for many more reasons without the need of ownership, such as food, shelter, mates, water, protecting young, etc. and are never going around thinking that they own it
How do you know what animals think and feel?
I don't, I just observe their actions and take into account their needs.
Besides, if the animals are thinking that they own stuff then how are we to know it and how could you say I'm wrong?
Is there something that leads you to believe they are owning and considering it theirs? If so What?
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Rahz
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix] 1
#18740629 - 08/22/13 01:23 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I consider it a possibility because we're animals too.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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Icelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
#18741002 - 08/22/13 06:10 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: LOOK, it's not that hard to understand . . .
To have ownership we need two things . . . .
If one of those things is nature . . . .
There has to be something independent from nature . . . .
To own nature . . . .
That's where you come in!
How can something biological be independent from nature? The fact that we die means nothing can actually be owned by man or lion. It's pretend like a mating dance or any other ritual an animal may perform. This is just another species in action governed by the natural environment it inhabits.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
#18741055 - 08/22/13 06:53 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Lets look at clothing. Humans do it and not other animals. Is clothing unnatural? Where did the inspiration for clothing come from?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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crumblebum
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix] 1
#18741060 - 08/22/13 06:57 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
crumblebum said: Can we establish, once and for all, what "nature" is and what it means to be "natural"? Because that's kind of the hanging point in any discussion about what is and isn't natural and in nature.
On a separate note:
Many animals have a territory in which they claim the usage of a single or multiple products, such as prey, plant matter, shelter, etc. They will defend this territory violently. They have the basic concept of ownership. (ONLY addressing this second point and not addressing the first one will be an immediate sign of pussing out altogether. The second point is clearly the weaker and easier one)
What is natural is determined by nature. (rather than determined by products of nature) Do you disagree that it would be pointless for nature to own itself?
Animals protect their territory for many more reasons without the need of ownership, such as food, shelter, mates, water, protecting young, etc. and are never going around thinking that they own it, they are just a part or it. We are are part of nature until we try to own it, which to own something you have to have something separate from yourself to own.
I would like to ask you why don't that compilation of atoms continue to own after you are dead?
Using the word in the definition. F Minus at critical thinking. This is all gibberish.
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fireworks_god
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix] 1
#18741191 - 08/22/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: To own requires an object to be owned and an owner of that object.
In nature one object doesn't own another object, therefore ownership is not natural.
Apparently you missed the one on National Geographic where animals were territorial.
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Sse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
#18744441 - 08/22/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Territorial animals do seem to be pretty possessive
Try to take a female from a beachmasters harem while he's looking.
They will even go up to three months without food to protect their territory.
Seems like that beachmaster really wants that territory for his own.
Its a natural evolutionary advantage for them to be big and possessive. The bigger and more possessive you are the more likely you will be to succeed and produce offspring. This creates a natural hierarchy
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Icelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
#18745477 - 08/23/13 02:54 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Watch dogs and a bone sometimes. Even if they are done with it and not interested anymore or at that time the minute another dog takes and interest they will claim it and fight over it. That's ownership.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
#18745522 - 08/23/13 03:18 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
teknix said: To own requires an object to be owned and an owner of that object.
In nature one object doesn't own another object, therefore ownership is not natural.
Apparently you missed the one on National Geographic where animals were territorial. 
I'm not convinced that their actions imply that they have a self to own.
They are simply following their instinct to eliminate rivals, (which is an evolutionary attribute that favors the strongest males) what does that have to do with owning?
Territorial means they remain in the same area and don't play well with others, I don't see where you get ownership.
What evidence do any of you have that they are thinking it is theirs?
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Icelander
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Icelander]
#18745560 - 08/23/13 03:40 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Watch dogs and a bone sometimes. Even if they are done with it and not interested anymore or at that time the minute another dog takes an interest they will claim it and fight over it. That's ownership.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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