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Offlinechinacat311
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psilocybin vs. psilocin
    #1869549 - 08/31/03 11:42 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i was lookin at the doseage calculator and it says some strains have 0 psilocin and others have a lot. how do these two affect the brain? which parts of the trip derive from each?

i know psilocin deteriorates faster, but thats about it.

sorry if this has been asked before, but i couldnt find any posts.


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Offlinejong21
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: chinacat311] * 1
    #1869588 - 08/31/03 11:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

they are really the same thing. Psilocin is hte main psychoactive chemical that causes you to trip. Psilocybin, which has an extra group of atoms attached to it, once in your system, is converted to psilocin (the group of atoms is broken off). So, each molocule of psilocybin will become a molecule of psilocin, in theory. Psilocin is slightly more potent by weight only because its molecular weight is less than psilocybin, so a given weight of psilocin will have more molecules than the same weight of psilocybin. Check out hte FAQs at www.erowid.org, under the chemistry section, there are other chemicals in shrooms that contribute to the trip as well, it is an interesting section to read about.


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Offlineaminitaman
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: chinacat311]
    #1869589 - 08/31/03 11:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

good question,ive always wundered about that too,also sumthin to add to your question,:what is baecoytsin?or how ever u spell it?peaceout!


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Anonymous

Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: chinacat311]
    #1869591 - 08/31/03 11:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

psilocybin is coverted into psilocin in the body...it only applies if shrooms are fresh since you lose the psilocin when dried(or most of it)


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Offlinesoluble_dreams
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: ]
    #1869874 - 09/01/03 01:44 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Is this why when you bruise a mushroom, it turns blue? The rapid deterioration of psilocyn? That's what I've always thought.


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Offlinechinacat311
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: soluble_dreams]
    #1871165 - 09/01/03 02:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

so no matter how careful you are drying youll lose potency??


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Offlinestarfungi
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: chinacat311]
    #1873304 - 09/02/03 03:54 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

yep, the psilocin will deteriorate rather quickly, but the psilocybin is a lot more stable, so it'll stay. So mushrooms with a higher psilocybin ratio is better for drying and storing.


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Offlineunderground
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: aminitaman]
    #1879256 - 09/03/03 11:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"beacoytsin" or baeocystin is another tryptamine derivative.
psylocin is 4-HYDROXY-DMT,
psylocybin is 4-ACETOXY-DMT, and
baeocystin is 4-phosphoryloxy-MT

i guess it's also a psycoactive substance, but the jury is still out on whether it is psychedelic or not

check the link for nice diagrams:

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_chemistry.shtml


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: soluble_dreams]
    #1880576 - 09/04/03 10:17 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

soluble_dreams said:
Is this why when you bruise a mushroom, it turns blue? The rapid deterioration of psilocyn? That's what I've always thought.




The bluing of a mushroom is due to the oxidation of indole based substances in the fungus, many other mushrooms not containing psilocyn will bruise blue, so no it's not the deteriation of psilocyn.


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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: John]
    #19523489 - 02/05/14 03:07 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

What about the degradation of BAEOCYSTIN, does it goes away drying the shrooms also?


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OfflineDa2ra
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19523670 - 02/05/14 05:23 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

According to The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants. Christian Rätsch (2005), baeocystin is probably the biogenic amine of psilocybin. This means that it's one stage in the biosynthesis of psilocybin. It's an incomplete version of psilocybin. This suggests to me that it's iNACTIVE.

Psilocybin and psilocin are closely related to baeocystin (= O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N-methyltryptamine, norpsilocybin), which probably represents the biogenic precursor of psilocybin (Repke et al. 1977; cf. also Brack et al. 1961 and Chilton et al. 1979). (Page 836)


Edited by Da2ra (02/05/14 10:51 AM)


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OfflineHarryLS
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: Da2ra]
    #19524191 - 02/05/14 10:41 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

baeocystin is psychoactive though degrades rapidly... My opinion at least

You see that in the unusual loss of potency during the drying of Psilocybe baeocystis.
It can loose 70-80% of its potency being dried.

So... Lesson here is the drying process may have some affect on potency, depending on the species and it's mixture of the active compounds. For some mushrooms that have mostly psilocybin, drying has less affect on potency. If it has high levels of baeocystin or related compounds, drying has more of an affect. If high levels of psilocin, drying might have some but not that much affect... At least that is what I have see.

Still, drying is the best way to preserve your mushrooms....

Just my 2 cents

Peace


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OfflineDa2ra
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: HarryL]
    #19524238 - 02/05/14 10:53 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

HarryL said:
If high levels of psilocin, drying might have some but not that much affect...




i WAS SPECIFICALLY UNDER THE IMpression that psilocin was very easily destroyed in the drying process.


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OfflineJimmyhunter1000
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: Da2ra]
    #19524309 - 02/05/14 11:11 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Quote:

HarryL said:
If high levels of psilocin, drying might have some but not that much affect...




i WAS SPECIFICALLY UNDER THE IMpression that psilocin was very easily destroyed in the drying process.




The only things that you'll see in a drying process that could degrade it is O2 exposure. Dehydrators don't even come close to the temp needed to degrade the compound.

Odds are you won't notice a loss in potency that's notable, unless you're talking long time storage of 3-4 years. Even then there have been reports of people still tripping without much lost.


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OfflineDa2ra
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: Jimmyhunter1000]
    #19524565 - 02/05/14 12:18 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I'm aware that that's true for most chemicals, but I was under the impression that psilocin was ridiculously unstable. This is why scientists consider psilocybin to be the main chemical found in mushrooms (e.g. referring to mushrooms as psilocybin mushrooms and using isolated psilocybin in studies.)


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OfflineAopocetx
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: Da2ra]
    #19524588 - 02/05/14 12:22 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Man I know I saw the same post but I guess in a different forum? I said the same thing as people above. I know there is/was a duplicate of this thread!


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Offlineimjrod
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: Jimmyhunter1000]
    #20785276 - 11/02/14 08:34 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

D-L Tryptophan is the precursor to Beacoytsin and Beacoytsin is the precursor to Psilocybin. Psilocybin turns into Psilocin in the body and that is the active compound. Administering D-L Tryptophan to mycellium culture will increase the levels of Beacoytsin and consequently Psilocybin the same way that administering D-L Trypophan to Ergot will increase yields of Ergine and consequently acid. Administering D-L Tryptophan as one of the nutrients also increases yields of the DMT in shrooms.

While growing, the shrooms use D-L Tryptophan to make Beacoytsin. Beacoytsin then synthesizes (converts into) Psilocybin and the Psilocybin crystals grow as this occurs. Psilocybin effects last longer than Beacoytsin, and are slightly stronger. For this reason, fresh shrooms have "two parts," in which there is a slight come-down after 2-3 hours from the Beacoytsin, while the Psilocybin goes on for 6 hours or so.

Fully cured shrooms will have a longer lasting-effect. However, the Psilocybin crystals are fragile to air and light, so sometimes the curing process destroys more than what one may like. It's imperative to keep the shrooms stored out of light heat and air.

During the shroom curing process, Psilocybin crystals will grow from Beacoytsin. While the primary difference between the high of Beacoytsin and Psilocybin would be the duration, crystals grown in vacuum conditions within or without (via extraction) the shrooms are much stronger than Beacoytsin, due to better crystal growth increasing the chemical efficiency.

Chemical efficiency is important in psychadelics, making crystal growth a concern. In making acid, crystals are regrown twice. To promote excellent crystal growth in shrooms, use vacuum conditions like a vacuum desiccator or an inflated plastic bag with desiccant. The inflated bag will provide a vacuum type environment which will promote high efficiency crystal formation.

In summary, to increase overall shroom potency, administer D-L Tryptophan as one of the nutrients in spawning, and dissolve some in the water used for flushing. At harvest, seal the shrooms in an inflated bag for dessication or a vacuum desiccator as soon as possible. Use Vitamin C to protect shrooms from oxygen. Protected from oxygen and light and in vacuum conditions, you will have excellent Psilocybin crystals.

The crystals can also be used outside of the shrooms via extraction. This is off topic so I won't go into it.


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OfflineAizen
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: imjrod]
    #20785458 - 11/02/14 09:10 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

underground said:
"beacoytsin" or baeocystin is another tryptamine derivative. 
psylocin is 4-HYDROXY-DMT,
psylocybin is 4-ACETOXY-DMT, and
baeocystin is 4-phosphoryloxy-MT

i guess it's also a psycoactive substance, but the jury is still out on whether it is psychedelic or not

check the link for nice diagrams:

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_chemistry.shtml




I'm not familiar with Baeocystin, but Psilocybin is not acetoxydimethyltryptamine.

Psilocin is 4-hydroxy-DMT, or 4-dimethyltryptaminol. It's easily oxidised, so shrooms that are high in psilocin don't keep well.

Psilocybin is the hydroxyl phosphate ester of psilocin, or 4-dimethyltryptaminyl dihydrogen phosphate. The hydrogen on the hydroxyl is replaced with a negatively charged phosphate hydroxide group. The phosphate ester is much less reactive to temperature, water or air, so high-psilocybin shrooms dry and keep better.

in the body, this ester is broken down back into psilocin, becoming active in the process.


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OfflineDa2ra
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: Aizen]
    #20785482 - 11/02/14 09:15 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Aizen said:
The phosphate ester is much less reactive to temperature, water or air, so high-psilocybin shrooms dry and keep better.




The literature says that psilocin is a step in the process of the biosynthesis of psilocybin, so perhaps mushrooms can be grown that contain only psilocybin?




A Biosynthetic Sequence from Tryptophan to Psilocybin
Agurell S, Lars J, Nilsson G. 
Tetrahedron Letters. 1968;9:1063-1064.
DOWNLOAD


Also, I think imjrod's post is full of bizarre misinformation.


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Offlineimjrod
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Re: psilocybin vs. psilocin [Re: Da2ra]
    #20786312 - 11/03/14 12:02 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I feed Ergot and Magic Mushroom cultures D-L Tryptophan as a course of nature. It should be considered standard procedure.

Organic chemistry 101: feed your plants the precursors then properly cure them to convert the precursors. Plants don't make the active ingredient that we desire, they make the precursor to it. And what plants make has a precursor. In the case of shrooms, what we do is feed them D-L Tryptophan.

During curing process, the precursor converts to the alkaloid crystal. In psychedelics, High efficiency crystals produce better visuals. To get "higher grade" Psilocybin formation during curing, use inflated bag or vacuum desiccator, both standard organic chemistry techniques and therefore you can look it up somewhere else on the internet.

I won't explain how to make the inflated bag but there are places on the internet where you can even find pictures. Pictures seem to make things easier for some people.

Soooooooo Feed the shrooms D-L Tryptophan and cure them in vacuum conditions for 8 to 10 months. There is no way I can put it any easier than that, even if I used pictures.


Edited by imjrod (11/03/14 12:56 AM)


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