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OfflineDiamonds808
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90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs
    #18631384 - 07/29/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

3 holes on both sides.. 1.5" or 2" diameter? Holes are 5" apart.


Damion5050 used 1 brick coir + 2QTs of verm + 5QTs spawn in his 72QT.
(substrate level was 3.5")

In my 90QT tub:
I'm planning on using 1.5 brick + 2.5QTs of verm + 3.5-4.5 cup gypsum (10%) + 8.5QTs spawn (+ 7.25 QTs of water). Substrate level at 3.5" (ratio 1:1.4). Coir 80: Verm 20.
Does this sound good?

Substrate calculator says coir = 9.5 QTs. Does that sound like 1.5 bricks?

Since it's such a large tub, I'm worried about contamination.. should I reduce substrate level to 3" instead of 3.5"?

Substrate level 3": Spawn ratio: 1:1.05. Coir 80 (7 QTs): Verm 20 (1.79 QTs).

Questions:
1. Do you suggest 1.5" or 2" holes?
2. Substrate level at 3.5" (ratio 1:1.4) or lower depth at 3" with higher ratio (1:1.05)?
3. What is the ideal Coir/Verm percentage?
4. Coir brick = how many QTs?


I also plan to pasteurize in doubled up turkey oven bags 23 QT pressure cooker/pot using "Frank's Proper Pasteurization Tek 3.0".


Edited by Diamonds808 (07/29/13 09:40 PM)


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Diamonds808]
    #18631468 - 07/29/13 09:14 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diamonds808 said:
3 holes on both sides.. 1.5" or 2" diameter? Holes are 5" apart.


Damion5050 used 1 brick coir + 2QTs of verm + 5QTs spawn in his 72QT.
(substrate level was 3.5")

In my 90QT tub:
I'm planning on using 1.5 brick + 2.5QTs of verm + 2 cup gypsum + 8.5QTs spawn. Substrate level at 3.5" (ratio 1:1.4). Coir 80: Verm 20.
Does this sound good?

Substrate calculator says coir = 9.5 QTs. Does that sound like 1.5 bricks?

Since it's such a large tub, I'm worried about contamination.. should I reduce substrate level to 3" instead of 3.5"?

Substrate level 3": Spawn ratio: 1:1.05. Coir 80 (7 QTs): Verm 20 (1.79 QTs).

Questions:
1. Do you suggest 1.5" or 2" holes?
2. Substrate level at 3.5" (ratio 1:1.4) or lower depth at 3" with higher ratio (1:1.05)?
3. What is the ideal Coir/Verm percentage?
4. Coir brick = how many QTs?

I also plan to pasteurize in doubled up turkey oven bags 23 QT pressure cooker/pot using "Frank's Proper Pasteurization Tek 3.0".





If you are using a 1:1 spawn/sub ratio, you shouldn't have any worries about contams, even if the tub is larger, assuming you properly pasteurized and everything. A 1:1 ratio has never contamed on me and I've done 105qt tubs before.
:shrug:

I also always do a 3.5-4" sub depth, I've read you can get smaller fruits from a smaller sub, but I haven't tried that so I don't know if that is misinfo or not.

As for how much of everything to use, I'd take a quart jar, fill it with water and dump it into the tub. Do this repeatedly til you find out how many quarts it takes to get to your desired sub depth and keep track of how many quarts you poured in there. Then you can cut that amount in half, make up your coir/verm and load that into quart jars, then dump those quart jars into the turkey bag. Pasteurize then spawn. I'm pretty sure you can save excess coir, I haven't done it but I have read people just dry it out then stick it into a bag. You can search for that or just toss it, it will only be a couple dollars in coir, anyway. I'd do 1.3-1.5 bricks, you should be pretty close with that.


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OfflineBloodKil
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: ganjfather]
    #18631607 - 07/29/13 09:41 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Ok.....  for starters I usually find 1 brick of coir to be ~9qts *packed once hydrated....  (1 brick + 2qts verm + 5qt water = 11qt jars packed by tapping on the ground a couple times while filling)  from this I'd assume your 1.5 bricks + 2.5qt vermiculite will be around 16qts and will bring your ratio down of course.

Secondly, I'm just not so sure about your mono design...  or why you felt the need to get such a large one...  Sterilite has clear (including lids) 66qt tubs for ~5-7 dollars depending on where your looking.  If I was you I would go with the standard tub, put the standard holes in it (2 on each long side and one on each short) and up your spawn ratio by using your whole 8.5qts against a brick and 2 qts vermiculite pasturized per Franks tek.

As far as hole size... I've seen 1 1/8" holes with a wall to wall canopy, and 2" with the same.  You'll have to figure out how tight to get your poly on whatever size you choose, but from there on out should have good success by following suit with same amounts of poly.

As far as depth, I'd go with a smaller depth and higher ratio if you have to, but in all honestly your just better off getting a smaller tub and not dealing with a bunch of changes at this point...  3" is fine.  I've seen seen tubs with nice canopy at 2", heard some long time members around here talk about success at 1.5", and have seen gh trays fruit with under an inch (though a tub will likely be best suited in the ~3" range for humidity and moisture retention Imo)

You've had quite a few failures lately, and I think straying from the currant accepted norm will likely just lead you toward even more.  Spend the extra couple bucks to get a better sized tub, lay it out correctly, pasturize correctly, mix it correctly, and don't try adding a casing layer to it.  (A lot if not all of this can be found in franks teks...  He makes it easy to follow and quite honestly they all should have an easy button attached to them...)

Take the time and do it right diamonds...  I know you've got to be hoping for some success after your last 3 didn't colonize correctly.  Changing things up now though is just likely to hurt you.


Edited by BloodKil (07/29/13 09:55 PM)


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: BloodKil]
    #18631640 - 07/29/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BloodKil said:


Take the time and do it right diamonds...  I know you've got to be hoping for some success after your last 3 didn't colonize correctly.  Changing things up now though is just likely to hurt you.





This is good advice, too. I didn't know that you haven't been having any success. Just follow all of frank and TLs teks. Make your tubs like TL does, and pastuerize like Frank does. I'd recommend rehydrating the grains too, I've been having good results since frank put that tek out. Properly pasteurize and use a 1:1 ratio. Don't stray the beaten path until you have multiple successful mono grows.


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OfflineDiamonds808
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: ganjfather]
    #18631668 - 07/29/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

^ I totally get what you're saying but I believe my other tubs failed due to the Bucket tek that I was using. I still got about 4 dried ounces from them.  I plan on using Franks tek this time and doing it right. The 90QT Sterilite tub was on sale for $13. I also have a Sterilite 58Qt that I got for $7. Wal-mart didn't have a 66 or 72 QT tub.
Quote:

ganjfather said:
If you are using a 1:1 spawn/sub ratio, you shouldn't have any worries about contams, even if the tub is larger, assuming you properly pasteurized and everything. A 1:1 ratio has never contamed on me and I've done 105qt tubs before.
:shrug:

I also always do a 3.5-4" sub depth, I've read you can get smaller fruits from a smaller sub, but I haven't tried that so I don't know if that is misinfo or not.

As for how much of everything to use, I'd take a quart jar, fill it with water and dump it into the tub. Do this repeatedly til you find out how many quarts it takes to get to your desired sub depth and keep track of how many quarts you poured in there. Then you can cut that amount in half, make up your coir/verm and load that into quart jars, then dump those quart jars into the turkey bag. Pasteurize then spawn. I'm pretty sure you can save excess coir, I haven't done it but I have read people just dry it out then stick it into a bag. You can search for that or just toss it, it will only be a couple dollars in coir, anyway. I'd do 1.3-1.5 bricks, you should be pretty close with that.



Thank you! I think I am going to go with 3.5" depth. 1.5 bricks would be easier to break up so I'll just throw the excess away. 2.5 QTs of verm sound okay though?


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Diamonds808]
    #18632210 - 07/30/13 12:59 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I tend to go higher on my verm, but thats just me. I would do 4 qts for a 1.5 bricks, but thats just for the verm/coir that I use. If you have had success in the past with a properly hydrated substrate, I'd keep the ratio the same.


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OfflineInTheBiggun
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: ganjfather]
    #18632258 - 07/30/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I use a two inch width soup can heated up in a fire or jet lighter to melt perfect holes in tub just above sub level. Beats any drilling or cutting hands down.

Also, taping the edges of the polyfil can help prevent accidental removal of the polyfil.


Edited by InTheBiggun (07/30/13 01:30 AM)


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OfflineDiamonds808
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: InTheBiggun]
    #18632860 - 07/30/13 08:50 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks ganjfather!

Quote:

InTheBiggun said:
I use a two inch width soup can heated up in a fire or jet lighter to melt perfect holes in tub just above sub level. Beats any drilling or cutting hands down.

Also, taping the edges of the polyfil can help prevent accidental removal of the polyfil.



I don't really have a jet lighter or a fireplace. o.O..

Thanks for the tape tip! :smile: I shall try that.


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InvisibleGretchenmeister
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Diamonds808]
    #18633277 - 07/30/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diamonds808 said:
3 holes on both sides.. 1.5" or 2" diameter? Holes are 5" apart.


Damion5050 used 1 brick coir + 2QTs of verm + 5QTs spawn in his 72QT.
(substrate level was 3.5")

In my 90QT tub:
I'm planning on using 1.5 brick + 2.5QTs of verm + 3.5-4.5 cup gypsum (10%) + 8.5QTs spawn (+ 7.25 QTs of water). Substrate level at 3.5" (ratio 1:1.4). Coir 80: Verm 20.
Does this sound good?

Substrate calculator says coir = 9.5 QTs. Does that sound like 1.5 bricks?

Since it's such a large tub, I'm worried about contamination.. should I reduce substrate level to 3" instead of 3.5"?

Substrate level 3": Spawn ratio: 1:1.05. Coir 80 (7 QTs): Verm 20 (1.79 QTs).

Questions:
1. Do you suggest 1.5" or 2" holes?
2. Substrate level at 3.5" (ratio 1:1.4) or lower depth at 3" with higher ratio (1:1.05)?
3. What is the ideal Coir/Verm percentage?
4. Coir brick = how many QTs?


I also plan to pasteurize in doubled up turkey oven bags 23 QT pressure cooker/pot using "Frank's Proper Pasteurization Tek 3.0".





I suggest 2" holes because some flow will be restricted by your filter material.

The basic coir recipe is one brick of coir (expands to 8QT), and two quarts verm.

I dont know whats so proper about Franks Tek :smile: I think it's like russian roulette pasteurizing over any heat source.  http://www.mushies.org/wiki/index.php/Bulk_Substrate

Plus thats a lot of substrate to try to pastuerize in bags in a pot. 


This is 106 Quart tub using coir, verm, worm castings, and crushed limestone.  This is actually the tub I use to pastuerize my bulk in, I was out of trays/tubs and had extra spawn, so I just used the big ass container I prep bulk in, stuck in the bottom of my greenhouse. Got several good flushes off it. The sub depth is a little over 3.5 inches.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Diamonds808]
    #18633390 - 07/30/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diamonds808 said:
Questions:
1. Do you suggest 1.5" or 2" holes?
2. Substrate level at 3.5" (ratio 1:1.4) or lower depth at 3" with higher ratio (1:1.05)?
3. What is the ideal Coir/Verm percentage?
4. Coir brick = how many QTs?





1.5" holes, and I would only make the standard 2 on each long side, sub level and one on each short side, near the handle. You are going to have a tough time getting the tub dialed in with so much airflow. If you want to increase FAE and retain RH properly without fucking with your poly all day, drill 2" holes for the top of the short sides and 1.5" for the bottom 4.

3" is perfect, but after spawning my tubs come out to about 3-3.5". Use one brick of coir and 2 quarts of verm for every modest sized tub (like yours). Do not worry about percentages, number of quarts, etc...throw the whole substrate in the bag and pasteurize it. Pour it into the tub come spawn time, mix in your spawn, level it off, bam. Nothing else to it.

At this point anything else is just overthinking it and stressing yourself out my friend :thumbup:


--------------------

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OfflineBloodKil
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Gretchenmeister]
    #18633481 - 07/30/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Have to disagree a bit Gretchen....  If anything it seems like you have the two processes mixed up.

How is it Russian roulette to pasturize over a heat source?  Between the thermometers (made even nicer if you have remote temperature probes) and how easy it is to adjust and maintain proper heat with a stove, how can you even compare a bucket or tub pasturization that just amounts to pouring in water and hoping for the best?  (Even the method you displayed above relies upon hoping your tub stays at heat long enough, and then having to bring to field capacity afterwards...  :thumbdown:)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the tub method would not or could not work, however results can be easily I nfluenced by the temperature outside the tub, the temperature of the subject going in, the level of insulation, etc...  At least on the stove if you see your temps dropping you can turn on/up your heat.... 

Not to mention who really wants to spend an hour of their pasturization times heating up several large pots of water to dump into a tote, when 1 or 2 pots (dependant on size) less than half full of water can be heated, bringing up the substrate temp as the water temperature goes up....  Saving money, time, water, and allowing for greater control throughout the entire process.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Gretchenmeister]
    #18633552 - 07/30/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gretchenmeister said:

The basic coir recipe is one brick of coir (expands to 8QT), and two quarts verm.

Plus thats a lot of substrate to try to pastuerize in bags in a pot.




One brick of coir, 2 quarts verm, I usually end up with 9-12 quarts of substrate and it fits nicely into a bag and nicely into my pot :shrug:



Quote:

I dont know whats so proper about Franks Tek :smile: I think it's like russian roulette pasteurizing over any heat source. 




Actually proper pasteurization has to do with temps, not method of achieving those temps.

If you hold the core of your substrate at 140-160F for 1-2 hours, you have properly pasteurized your substrate.  It needs to be evenly heated and the outer edge temps can exceed the core temp no problem. My tek achieves this perfectly for me, I've had nothing but success with coir and hpoo alike.

I have temp'd the tops of the bags that are not submerged during and after pasteurization. With the lid on the pot from the start, it never varies by more than 2F. :crazy2:


--------------------

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You should take a look. :hehehe:


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OfflineDiamonds808
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18647288 - 08/02/13 12:49 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks everyone for your responses. I actually took a look at your perfect polyfill thread, Frank... and I realized that my tubs are not dialed in properly AT ALL. I have no condensation on the walls like your tubs do. :o Also, my tubs are right next to a window--super mild currant, shade, blah.. but I think it's really messing because I CAN feel a slight breeze right at my tubs.

So, I decided to not fuck with the big tub right now but instead do 2 mini monotubs (30QTs) and one 1.5" hole on each side. Or maybe even trying a no hole cracked lid mono.


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Diamonds808]
    #18647347 - 08/02/13 01:08 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

:highfive:


Took me a while to realize that things weren't "dialed in", either.

I had a fan in my closet with the tubs, kept drying things out. I also followed RR's field capacity to the tee and kept having problems with my sub not being properly hydrated. Some things you just have to experiment with until you figure out what really works.

Grow some boomers now :thumbup:


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OfflineDiamonds808
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: ganjfather]
    #18647403 - 08/02/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Haha, thanks. Yeah, I guess I'm doing the all natural route. We have pretty good weather over here and I didn't want to waste electricity ($$) on humidifiers, lights, etc. Outside temp is around 70-85F and cooler inside... humidity around 65%-75%.

The only really good success I've had was with my 30 Qt with 1.5" on each side.

AND due to my failure rate, I don't want to risk all my precious brf cakes with a large tub (you're right bloodkil). :P
Even though, it's going to be my first "proper pasteurization"..hope I don't screw that up either. >.<


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Diamonds808]
    #18647467 - 08/02/13 01:57 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Properly pasteurizing is really the only way to go. If you do it right (follow frank's tek) you really can't go wrong. Never had a bad experience with his.


It's all about dialing everything in, though. I found when I tried to follow RR's field capacity test, which I did exactly as he said, my tubs would NOT hold humidity. So I changed my fans, had them blowing in the room, not in the closet, and things got better, not correct, though. So I eventually started adding casing layers to my tub which improved everything, except I started getting cobweb in my casing layers after 2-3 flushes. Then I messed with my PH and moisture level of my casings and eventually stopped getting any contams.

Later, I found that my real problem existed with my sub not being properly hydrated. Things drying, getting fruits that weren't 4-5 inches tall, after mature. So I adjusted my "field capacity" and started making my sub oversaturated as RR said, but it worked. Huge fruits that didn't really need any outside assistance. No fanning, no misting, no contams, no casings, either.

RR is respected, and has grown many uh mushrooms, but what worked for him did not work for me. You gotta experiment and find out what works for you.

I live in a 100+ climate with under 20% humidity all year round, even worse in the winter. I don't really know why my conditions do not work the same way as someone who lives 2 hrs aways, but it does.

And there really is no point to my words, other than, figure out what works where you live, take the guide line, then use intellect to go from there :thumbup:


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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: ganjfather]
    #18648424 - 08/02/13 09:18 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Actually proper pasteurization has to do with temps, not method of achieving those temps.

If you hold the core of your substrate at 140-160F for 1-2 hours, you have properly pasteurized your substrate.  It needs to be evenly heated and the outer edge temps can exceed the core temp no problem. My tek achieves this perfectly for me, I've had nothing but success with coir and hpoo alike.




It will take much more than a brick recipe to fill the tub. I usually prep a few bricks at a whack, because one brick will not fill my big ass tubs. I use 170F as my benchmark. Just see too many people end up partially sterilizing the sub when pasteurizing on a stove. 

Agarigus species actually require more microbial life to live, and will not fruit with a sterile casing, they require non sterile casing, and traditionally subs and casing is pastuerized at 150-160F.

Cubes on the other hand do not require any additional microlife to actually fruit, cased or not.  Because they do not require the additional microlife, you can kill more of the "bad"  microbes, and the 170F paste temp does just this, while still allowing the most beneficial microlife to survive, then thrive.

I'm not saying 150-160F is not effective pastuerization temps. Historically it has not been the optimal temp for subs intended for cube projects.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Gretchenmeister]
    #18648464 - 08/02/13 09:25 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I'm just saying, if I don't pasteurize at around 150F for 90 minutes, I get molds popping up here and there :shrug:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


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OfflineDiamonds808
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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: ganjfather]
    #18652036 - 08/02/13 10:10 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ganjfather said:
Properly pasteurizing is really the only way to go. If you do it right (follow frank's tek) you really can't go wrong. Never had a bad experience with his.


It's all about dialing everything in, though. I found when I tried to follow RR's field capacity test, which I did exactly as he said, my tubs would NOT hold humidity. So I changed my fans, had them blowing in the room, not in the closet, and things got better, not correct, though. So I eventually started adding casing layers to my tub which improved everything, except I started getting cobweb in my casing layers after 2-3 flushes. Then I messed with my PH and moisture level of my casings and eventually stopped getting any contams.

Later, I found that my real problem existed with my sub not being properly hydrated. Things drying, getting fruits that weren't 4-5 inches tall, after mature. So I adjusted my "field capacity" and started making my sub oversaturated as RR said, but it worked. Huge fruits that didn't really need any outside assistance. No fanning, no misting, no contams, no casings, either.

RR is respected, and has grown many uh mushrooms, but what worked for him did not work for me. You gotta experiment and find out what works for you.

I live in a 100+ climate with under 20% humidity all year round, even worse in the winter. I don't really know why my conditions do not work the same way as someone who lives 2 hrs aways, but it does.

And there really is no point to my words, other than, figure out what works where you live, take the guide line, then use intellect to go from there :thumbup:



Yeah, I'm going to try his tek in a few days ! :smile: Thanks for sharing your experience. Makes me feel more hopeful. :smile: LOL. >.<

I think my holes are too big in my larger monotub.. I've been trying to make the poly tighter everyday (since the walls keep drying up)... do you think I should use microspore tape instead?


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Re: 90QT Monotub: Hole size, substrate level, coir/verm ratio, brick = ?QTs [Re: Diamonds808]
    #18673535 - 08/07/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

a brick of coir is 8qts


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