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Anonymous

Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874089 - 09/02/03 12:49 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

vietnam?

pakistan and saudi arabia are also allies of ours which have shitty human rights records or support terrorism.

in the list of countries you mention, which ones are currently allies with the US and are currently ruled by despots?

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Anonymous

Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874092 - 09/02/03 12:51 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

vietnam?

pakistan and saudi arabia are also allies of ours which have shitty human rights records or support terrorism.

in the list of countries you mention, which ones are currently allies with the US, and what have their governments done recently?

i'm talking about currect relations here... we can talk history in just a moment.

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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874109 - 09/02/03 12:56 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Wow. You list a bunch of countries and that proves that the US is responsible for more deaths than anyone else? You are going to have to do better than that.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Posts: 32,665
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Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874121 - 09/02/03 01:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I will concede that it is a largely abstract equation to
try to put substance to, but if you account for the above
7 cases, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone else in
the world with as much blood on their hands.

the information I am drawing from comes from

The Trial of Henry Kissinger - Christopher Hitchens
9-11 - Noam Chomsky
Power and Terror - Noam Chomsky

among others.

feel free to check those out, they are all relatively
quick reads.

in lieu of them, here's some google links for you to
peruse. no clue if their any good, but at least it's a
starting point for those of you whose understanding
of world affairs comes solely from the 3 letter networks.

chile links

argentina links

nicaragua links

note, nicaragua successfully sued the us in the world court, making
the united states the only nation officially charged as a terrorist state
by the organization for the mining of nicaraguan harbors during their
attempts to covertly and overtly overthrow the sandinistas.

turkey links

indonesia links

vietnam links

korea links


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: to the victors................. [Re: ]
    #1874152 - 09/02/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
vietnam?

pakistan and saudi arabia are also allies of ours which have shitty human rights records or support terrorism.

in the list of countries you mention, which ones are currently allies with the US, and what have their governments done recently?

i'm talking about currect relations here... we can talk history in just a moment.




your missing the point.

the argument started in about the oil, someone said
"poor france, we're doing the noble thing"

"I replied, yeah, just like we've done the noble thing
before in the aforementioned countries..."

pointing out that we are no better than france is when
it comes to dealing with murderous regimes

at which time someone called into question the validity
of my assertion that america is just as murderous as
anyone else, so I supplied a list of cases to look at.

then someone says, do the math.

so I concede that it's a very generic equation, but
the examples still stand.

then someone said, 'prove it'.

so I gave my literary sources and provided a list
of search results for the doubters to look into.

this has nothing to do with current or past events,
historical or contemporary.

I'm arguing from the point of view of an established
track record of disregard, complacency and even
wanton state sanctioned murder.

sure, pakistan and saudi arabia are bad.

so is china.

so are a few others that we currently deal with.

that doesn't change the case against bashing france
or russia.

the core argument, again, is, if you are going to bash
france and russia for dealing with sadaam, then it may
behoove you to do a little introspection as well because
we haven't proven to be much better with regards to
evil associations.

shakta, you asked for proof, I gave you a list, with
links even, I don't know what more I can provide you.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874164 - 09/02/03 01:14 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

That's fine. Don't you see my point when I say there is a double standard though? Everyone seems to automatically think the US is not in this for noble reasons, while France and Russia are assumed to be. I am not going to argue your links or your facts. Noam Chomsky is about as full of shit as they come though.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: to the victors................. [Re: shakta]
    #1874192 - 09/02/03 01:21 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I see, but I didn't recognize that as your original
argument.

your earlier posts make more sense to me now.

I definitely agree though, it's not like france and russia
are beacons of integrity, by any means.

on a tangent, can you tell me how noam chomsky is full
of shit?

I'm curious...


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874221 - 09/02/03 01:28 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

The same reasons that people like Hannity and Limbaugh are probably full of shit to you. All of them twist facts to suit their purposes.

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Anonymous

Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874223 - 09/02/03 01:29 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

you should familiarize yourself with the tu quoque fallacy.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: to the victors................. [Re: ]
    #1874314 - 09/02/03 01:52 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I may be guilty of this, but at least I've tried
to cite my sources.

I still haven't seen anything to refute any of
my claims.

what's the name for that fallacy?


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Anonymous

Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874369 - 09/02/03 02:10 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I still haven't seen anything to refute any of my claims. what's the name for that fallacy?

and you've done nothing to prove them. you do not simply win an argument by default if neither you nor your opponent can prove their position. this is called the burden of proof fallacy.

i haven't refuted your claims because they have no bearing on the discussion at hand. your claims, even if true, do nothing to bolster your argument.

the fact remains that france and russia supported iraq for specious reasons.

i'd say that supporting a brutal dictator because of oil is a far cry worse than pulling one down for oil, wouldn't you?

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: to the victors................. [Re: ]
    #1874408 - 09/02/03 02:24 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

i'd say that supporting a brutal dictator because
of oil is a far cry worse than pulling one down for oil,
wouldn't you?


so we are to compare the degrees wrongness?

I still stick to my original point, while france and
russia may have supported iraq for specious
reasons, 'the fact remains' we've similarly bashed
france for equally specious reasons and our foreign
policy, historically, is not as noble as shakta would
have us believe relative to the case at hand.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlineshakta
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Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: to the victors................. [Re: afoaf]
    #1874422 - 09/02/03 02:28 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Hey now. I just called bullshit on your claim that America has been responsible for more innocent deaths than anyone else. I never said we were correct all the time.

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: to the victors................. [Re: shakta]
    #1875680 - 09/02/03 08:46 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


I think this shows the French and Russian motivations for not ousting Saddam pretty well. They were content to keep letting Iraqis die, while they got rich off of their cheap oil.
 




yes unlike america who killed them to take their oil
:grin:

why no water of electricty yet?????
hmmmmmmm
oh yes cause it was all about the oil in the country , it had NOTHING , to do with Iraqi people

just like afganistan, dont think so????

well then why is the leader of afganistan from Halliburton?
and the US government itself admits afganistan was going to be attacked in octtober , BEFORE , sept 11 happened

and what do you know the pipline that the taliban said no to , now exists in between pakistan and afganistan

but it was ALL ABOUT!, the suffering of the people


right......................? :thumbdown: 


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Anonymous

Re: to the victors................. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1875841 - 09/02/03 09:24 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

yes unlike america who killed them to take their oil

according to this group:iraqbodycount.org the civilian death toll in iraq has so far been less than 8000 people. this is biased information; they do things like include killed resistance fighters and civilians killed by resistance fighters as 'civilian deaths'. despite the clear presence of an agenda at the site, it is the most frequently updated number, so it'll have to do. it's not quite objective, but the error is on *your* side.

their pumped-up number of a little less than 8000 equals about .03% of the population of iraq. (three people per every 10,000). these deaths were unfortunate accidental killings.

about 9 times as many iraqi citizens have died during this same period of natural causes as have died from deaths related to the war.

CIA World Factbook: Iraq

meanwhile, according to Human Rights Watch hussein's government was directly responsible for the deaths of some 450,000 people. this does NOT include deaths as a result of economic sanctions. these are people who 'disappeared' or were openly murdered by the regime... political dissidents, ethnic undesirables, and the like.

that's really all that needs to be said about civilian deaths.

why no water of electricty yet?????

they've had water and electricity for some time now.

well then why is the leader of afganistan from Halliburton?

excuse me?

and the US government itself admits afganistan was going to be attacked in octtober , BEFORE , sept 11 happened

source?

and what do you know the pipline that the taliban said no to now exists in between pakistan and afganistan

actually it doesn't.

where do you find this stuff?

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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: to the victors................. [Re: ]
    #1876868 - 09/03/03 07:42 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Well I guess, I will just let you handle that one. It made no sense at all.

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Anonymous

Re: to the victors................. [Re: shakta]
    #1876870 - 09/03/03 07:44 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

apparently sometimes people's emotions get in the way of both their ability to reason AND to type coherently.

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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: to the victors................. [Re: ]
    #1876875 - 09/03/03 07:46 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I am guilty of it quite often unfortunately. :smile:

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: to the victors................. [Re: shakta]
    #1877061 - 09/03/03 10:03 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Noam Chomsky is about as full of shit as they come though.

Where do you get this from shak? I presume you've never read him? The thing anyone notices reading Chomsky is the overwhelming evidence and detailed quotes he uses. Most of his books are quotes from right-wingers - nothing to do with him.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: to the victors................. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1877062 - 09/03/03 10:05 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I have seen some quotes from him that were complete bullshit, specifically dealing with Israel. That is the extent.

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