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Anonymous

The Georgist Proposal
    #1865400 - 08/30/03 12:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: ]
    #1865726 - 08/30/03 02:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting. My uncle is a strong proponent of Georgist ideology. It sounds like something that should be considered.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: ]
    #1866261 - 08/30/03 05:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds interesting. While I agree rent is unearned income, and interest is earned income, I'm not so sure about interest. To me, that seems like a middle ground and should be split. So it should look like this:

To society To the individual


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OfflineClover
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: Cornholio]
    #1867381 - 08/31/03 01:49 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

With any economic proposal, there must be balance.
There cannot be ONE system that works ALL the time. It must have the ability to change and grow with the evolution of people, community, technology, industry and so on or else it becomes obsolete to our needs (remember the American Welfare System?) as a continuously growing country.


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"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: ]
    #1869871 - 09/01/03 01:42 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'm just wondering: Would you right-wingers still consider welfare and other social programs to be theft if it was funded by unearned income?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXochitl
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Registered: 07/15/03
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1869971 - 09/01/03 02:25 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Idealogy should be avoided; it is similar to religion and dogma in the political and economic realm. Any idealogy named after a person is worshipping at their alter.



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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: Cornholio]
    #1870427 - 09/01/03 05:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sounds interesting. While I agree rent is unearned income, and interest is earned income, I'm not so sure about interest.



Why aren't you sure about interest? Interest is just the payment you get for letting someone else use your money. Lending it to someone else means you don't have that same money available for spending, and you also take the risk of not getting it back at all. Surely the compensation you get for this is no different from the payment you get for doing some work that you didn't want to do for free.

The Georgist proposal sounds similar to other libertarian schemes for distribution of wealth. They come under various names, such as Citizen's Dividend and Universal Basic Income. I'm all for it. Any redistribution system that doesn't rely on the power of politicians to grant and revoke "benefits" to particular groups of people, would be a great improvement.


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1871010 - 09/01/03 01:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well, my thoughts on interest are this. Let's say I was born into wealth, and I inherit $3 million dollars as a youngster. I wouldn't have to work a day in my life if I didn't want to, because interest on my money is more than enough to make me a comfortable living. That's seems pretty "unearned" to me. That's why I proposed a partial split. You still get to keep some of the interest income, but not all.


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Anonymous

Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: Cornholio]
    #1871022 - 09/01/03 02:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

would it be different if your rich father pays you $3 million to sweep the kitchen floor?


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: ]
    #1871072 - 09/01/03 02:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I wasn't actually talking about the $3 million. I was talking about interest on the $3 million.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Registered: 10/13/02
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1871103 - 09/01/03 02:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'm just wondering: Would you right-wingers still consider welfare and other social programs to be theft if it was funded by unearned income?



Please explain how income can be unearned? If you have something and allow others to use it for a fee how is that not earned? Perhaps I just need clarification. (this hangover is freakign killing me)


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: Cornholio]
    #1871110 - 09/01/03 02:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

you were saying that interest was unearned in situations where the principle is unearned. whether or not wealth is 'earned' or not has little to do with how much work went into obtaining it. all that matters is that it's recieved by ways of a voluntary transaction between consenting individuals.

according the this george theory, wealth obtained directly and solely from claims on land is unearned. i agree with it for the most part.


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Anonymous

Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: z@z.com]
    #1871120 - 09/01/03 02:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

he's talking about income obtained from claims on land, which in the theory we're discussing here, is unearned.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: ]
    #1871137 - 09/01/03 02:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I just find it difficult to say that it is unearned. Work had to be done at some point to obtain the land.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: ]
    #1871163 - 09/01/03 02:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
whether or not money is 'earned' or not has little to do with how much work went into obtaining it. all that matters is that it's recieved by ways of a voluntary transaction between consenting individuals.


Well then, I don't see how rent is "unearned" by that definition.
Quote:

according the this george theory, wealth obtained directly and solely from claims on land is unearned. i agree with it for the most part.


What if I chose to sell my land? Should I not be entitled to any of the money?

I'm not disagreeing with the theory, by the way. I'm just trying to better understand it.


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Anonymous

Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: z@z.com]
    #1871182 - 09/01/03 03:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

let's say that 10 of us are shipwrecked on an island. how can one of us rightfully say, "all of this land is mine" or "i claim all coconut bearing land and all beaches on this island" and rightfully be the owner?

of course, coconuts in the tree and fish in the sea have no real value to humans and it does take some labor to make them available and valuable.

i'd like to hear the specifics about how the value of 'rent' is determined in the georgist theory and how land, even as communal property, is to be shared between people.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: Cornholio]
    #1871215 - 09/01/03 03:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

While I agree rent is unearned income



Anyone who thinks rent is unearned income has both a screw loose and has never been a landlord.

The maintenance never ends, there's insurance, fuel, water, property taxes, advertising.

How many people do you think will choose to be landlords if they knew the profit would be gutted? And what do you think would happen to rents? I dare say they would skyrocket until the former level of profit was obtained.

Do you guys even think about this stuff before you go reworking society?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1871244 - 09/01/03 03:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

by 'rent' it doesn't mean money paid for housing. 'rent' in this theory refers to wealth obtained directly from ownership of land.


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OfflineCornholio
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Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1871373 - 09/01/03 04:10 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Do you guys even think about this stuff before you go reworking society?


Who's "you guys"? I wasn't the one who posted the article, I was just being open minded to the idea. Besides, the article specifically says "land rent", which is different from what you were talking about.


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Edited by Cornholio (09/01/03 04:14 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Georgist Proposal [Re: Cornholio]
    #1871710 - 09/01/03 05:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I know you didn't do the post, hence the "you guys".

Income in any form, unless someone hands you cash out of the goodness of their hearts, is earned income no matter what anyone calls it. That includes interest income.

Again, note the "you guys"..... if you want more, earn more. If you think someone doesn't have enough, you give it to them. Don't be looking for any more of mine than the feds already steal from me.

I have busted my ass for years so I could have the things I want. Try doing the same, it works.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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