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Anonymous

The Failure of Socialism.
    #1863183 - 08/29/03 05:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

why did socialism fail?

i think it was because it's inherently a poor system.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: ]
    #1863187 - 08/29/03 05:31 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

No, no, no. It's all America's fault silly.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: ]
    #1863189 - 08/29/03 05:31 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

it removes the incentive to perform well.

this must either be replaced by coercion, or nobody does anything.


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Anonymous

Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863206 - 08/29/03 05:39 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i think you put it very well.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: ]
    #1863219 - 08/29/03 05:48 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What systems do you see as having succeeded and how do you define success?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863231 - 08/29/03 05:52 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. I also think the other major factor that keeps Marxist systems from working is human greed. You still end up with haves and have nots.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: ]
    #1863232 - 08/29/03 05:52 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

PURE Socialism has yet to be tried, tho I'm pretty sure that would fail. Pure Capitalism also has yet to be tried, and I'm fairly certain that would fail as well. Almost all countries have some degree of both, with some, such as the US and Switzerland, leaning more towards Capitalism, and others, such as Britain and Sweden, leaning more towards Socialism. It seems that all these countries have been "successful," insofar as they've managed to maintain the countries' economies without collapsing.


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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1863728 - 08/29/03 09:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
PURE Socialism has yet to be tried, tho I'm pretty sure that would fail. Pure Capitalism also has yet to be tried, and I'm fairly certain that would fail as well. Almost all countries have some degree of both, with some, such as the US and Switzerland, leaning more towards Capitalism, and others, such as Britain and Sweden, leaning more towards Socialism. It seems that all these countries have been "successful," insofar as they've managed to maintain the countries' economies without collapsing.




A lot of countries lean towards socialism, but Norway itself is basically almost pure socialism, about as left as they come (notice the flag, almost all red with just a hair of blue and white, symbolism in flags shows a lot about a country and its policies...)..

I think it should be noticed that there is a Communist Party in Norway, and members do get elected to government positions sometimes.. it could be possible, I guess, for the country to go even deeper into Communism, but I guess a lot of the people wouldn't get into that...

A trip to the supermarket sure is interesting... what with TineMelk being the only option for milk and all, so on and so forth...
Peace.


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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863740 - 08/29/03 09:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Leaning towards and being pure socialism are a world apart really. Pure socialism would mean no one has money, and everyone just shares all their stuff. This is one of the reasons there will never be a purely socialist or capitalist society. Completely alone neither concept works.


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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: shakta]
    #1863745 - 08/29/03 09:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the difference between socialism and communism...

Norway is about as close to pure socialism as it gets... China is technically comnunist, right? I'll go and do a definiton search of the two..
Peace.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863751 - 08/29/03 09:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think you could call China communist anymore(if ever). It's basically a left-leaning market economy by now.


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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1863760 - 08/29/03 09:42 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. I think they were pretty communist back in the day of the cold war though, no? I will tell you one thing. I am very glad that they have opened up to being a trade partner in the world, and have backed off of their hardline isolationist stance that has plaqued the country for centuries somewhat. I will tell you that I fully believe had they not had this view, they could have very well been the most powerful nation on Earth by a long shot. They started exploring and trading and things, long before most. They then shut up their country, and it cost them dearly. This is just my opinion of course.


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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: shakta]
    #1863776 - 08/29/03 09:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The U.S. is in danger of folding back into an isolationistic stance.. it is of our character, no doubt.

Quote:


1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved




Norway definitely fits under the 2nd definition, and if there is various degrees allowed in the 1st one, then that applies too.
Peace.

Peace.


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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863784 - 08/29/03 09:59 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Sure. I am just talking about a PURE form of what Marx invisioned. The only places that really have that are small communities of people.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: ]
    #1864624 - 08/30/03 02:55 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Do you mean the collapse of the soviet union? That had more to do with the arms race and a corrupt dictatorship than problems with "socialism". Even so, economically what happened in russia was a miracle. To go from absolute zero to the second most powerful country on earth capable of defeating the most powerful army ever assembled within 20 years? What capitalist economy could ever compete with that?


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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: ]
    #1864678 - 08/30/03 03:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Socialism does not let prices be determined by supply and demand. Prices are instead set arbitrarily by a socialist committee. Supply is also determined by a socialist committee, possibly the same as the one that sets the prices. Demand is determined by the actual needs of people and businesses, just as in capitalism.

When demand changes, it usually takes some time before the supply can be adjusted to match the new demand. In the meantime, the prices can either change or stay the same. If the prices change to reflect the new demand, it's called "free market capitalism". If the prices stay the same it's called "socialism" and the general result is either scarcity or overproduction, which in both cases means that resources are being misused.

Therefore, socialism can only work in situations where there are no or only very small changes in demand, or where the supply can be adjusted immediately with no delay at all. Or where there is a thriving black market that keeps the economy healthy despite the socialism.


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Re: The Failure of Socialism. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1865110 - 08/30/03 07:49 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Do you mean the collapse of the soviet union? That had more to do with the arms race and a corrupt dictatorship than problems with "socialism". Even so, economically what happened in russia was a miracle. To go from absolute zero to the second most powerful country on earth capable of defeating the most powerful army ever assembled within 20 years? What capitalist economy could ever compete with that?




The people in Russia were still dirt poor, just as they had always been.. all the assests were sucked from everywhere and pumped into the military, there was only an illusion of economic prosperity, when in fact there was none..

What happened in Russia was sucking up all the power to have a quick rise in military status.. Thus, the Cold War itself was their failure, because only time could eventually fold the country in on itself..
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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