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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: easyskunkin]
    #18570953 - 07/17/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Whatever, believe what you want. Its all about power, ego and money to those people, not complicated.


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Offlineurbannerd
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18571196 - 07/17/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Whatever, believe what you want. Its all about power, ego and money to those people, not complicated.



this.


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Soaking in the energy of the universe since '91


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Invisibleeasyskunkin

Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 565
Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18571556 - 07/17/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Whatever, believe what you want. Its all about power, ego and money to those people, not complicated.



What makes you think that the catholic hierarchy doesn't really believe in the dogmas of their own faith ? I personally have never seen any document that would indicate that the Roman Curia is composed of a bunch of cynical atheists whose main goal is to fool the mass of catholics in order to gain more power, or money, or satisfy their ego.
Power, ego and money... You can find that in about all form of human organization, whether it's political, religious or economic. But saying the first goal of the catholic church is making money is just a polemical statement without foundation, in my opinion. The fact that there are power struggles in the apparatus of such or such organization, that ego might play a part in the will of some members of these organization to progress and gain control of them, or that money is needed to maintain or expand them is no indication that these members do not believe in the dogmas of the organization they belong to, don't you think ?


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: easyskunkin]
    #18571574 - 07/17/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

There could be the occasional fanatic in there, it wouldn't surprise me.


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Invisibleeasyskunkin

Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 565
Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18571594 - 07/17/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

They are all fanatics imo, that's my point :grin:


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)


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Offlineurbannerd
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: easyskunkin]
    #18571703 - 07/17/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

They do it so they can touch lil kids as much as they want.


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Soaking in the energy of the universe since '91


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: easyskunkin]
    #18571796 - 07/17/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

easyskunkin said:
Quote:

liquidlounge said:
What makes you think that the Catholic hierarchy doesn't believe in the religion they are promoting ?

It happens everywhere else in society so it's reasonable assuming this is the case with major religions IMO.

Just like cigarette companies promoting their cigarettes but god dammit to fuck do the ownership smoke themselves. Spiritual fakers are also good examples.

If you have access to serious documentary evidence I would like to see it.

I do not have any direct evidence, but I base this on my general view of a corrupt society.

Manipulation and brainwashing often share the same pattern.




Yes, I understand your wiews, Liquidlounge. But I don't think you can compare the catholic church and a cigarette manufacturing company and just just assume both have the same operating modes. They have nothing in common imo.
Comparison between two unrelated things is not evidence.




Assumptions around manipulation and brainwashing through religions are not baseless. We can see the same traits and patterns wherever we look in society.

Another example is how many priests smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol like beasts in their spare time not really giving a fuck about their holy texts. When they get home late at night it's Tyson-time. I am sure the catholic hierarchy is no different, do you think pedo-priests would molest young children if they thoroughly believed in Christianity?

Say there is such a thing as an 'elite' or 'catholic elite', are they honestly that stupid believing in 'magic'? People ruling the world or parts of the world are not stupid like your Average Joe, they might act like it just so that society reflects it - population control or brainwashing if you want:

It's all connected when you look deeper. My take on modern society through clicking on the Like.

You're also like the classic hunk in Marlboro commercials if you follow the trend. Just like religions. It's all about fitting in, through behaving like the rest of society you fit in. Most humans are herd animals hence fitting in is natural for them, being an outcast is not fitting in. Creating trends or norms are what leaders since dawn of man has been doing to control their herd. What they do in their spare time is not for public disclosure or it may be through mainstream media.
Take focus away from what is likely the very end or death so that their sheeps work hard for "society". Done through makeover such as religions.  :like:

However, you're technically in the right.


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As far as I assume to know...


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Invisibleeasyskunkin

Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 565
Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18572775 - 07/17/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Another example is how many priests smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol like beasts in their spare time not really giving a fuck about their holy texts. When they get home late at night it's Tyson-time. I am sure the catholic hierarchy is no different, do you think pedo-priests would molest young children if they thoroughly believed in Christianity?

Your post shows you have not been raised a catholic. Let me share my modest knowledge on the matter, adquired throught an entire scholar cursus in catholic institutIons (until I went to a public university, that is). First, there is nothing in the gospel against drinking alcohol or smoking tobacco, the first even being compulsory for priests as a vampiresque ritual ("blood of Christ") during the celebration of mass. Second, priests can absolutely believe in all the dogmas of the Church and still molest little boys. Or little girls if they prefer, it doesn't matter, because one of the most marked differences between catholicism and reformed christianity is the possibility for confession, and absolution, in this life. In practice, that means the priest, after molesting the said children, can go to his hierarchical superior, the bishop, and confess. If his repentance is sincere, meaning if he is really sorry (and he certainly is, not so much for the little children but for breaking his wows of celibacy), then the bishop can grant him the remission of his sins, or absolution. Imagine this as a discharge in a secular court of justice. It means that in the eyes of God, the priest is as pure as a newborn lamb. That's when the said priest can go back to his ministry and bug more little boys (or girls).
It even gets better : actually, if the little boy (or girl) seeks revenge and harms (physically or else) the priest under the influence of anger, and never confesses, he might well be directed in the after-life directly to hell, or at least receive a lenghty purgatory sentence. The confessed, repentant priest on the other hand, will go directly to paradise.
I hope you understand better how catholic morals works, now. In fact, according to christian theologians, whether catholic or reformed, morals would be impossible whithout religion. That could be the subject of another thread.


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)


Edited by easyskunkin (07/17/13 07:03 PM)


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OfflinePsychotria
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: lolwut]
    #18572791 - 07/17/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

The whole Pope shit it's just a disguise, priests still move on their generation of malesting little children.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: Psychotria]
    #18572802 - 07/17/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychotria said:
The whole Pope shit it's just a disguise, priests still move on their generation of malesting little children.




Not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that the priesthood is an office created for the purpose of child molestation?


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OfflinePsychotria
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: falcon]
    #18572914 - 07/17/13 07:32 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

indeed i am


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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: Psychotria]
    #18572982 - 07/17/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks, that's what I thought you were saying.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: easyskunkin]
    #18572985 - 07/17/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

easyskunkin said:
Another example is how many priests smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol like beasts in their spare time not really giving a fuck about their holy texts. When they get home late at night it's Tyson-time. I am sure the catholic hierarchy is no different, do you think pedo-priests would molest young children if they thoroughly believed in Christianity?

Your post shows you have not been raised a catholic. Let me share my modest knowledge on the matter, adquired throught an entire scholar cursus in catholic institutIons (until I went to a public university, that is). First, there is nothing in the gospel against drinking alcohol or smoking tobacco, the first even being compulsory for priests as a vampiresque ritual ("blood of Christ") during the celebration of mass. Second, priests can absolutely believe in all the dogmas of the Church and still molest little boys. Or little girls if they prefer, it doesn't matter, because one of the most marked differences between catholicism and reformed christianity is the possibility for confession, and absolution, in this life. In practice, that means the priest, after molesting the said children, can go to his hierarchical superior, the bishop, and confess. If his repentance is sincere, meaning if he is really sorry (and he certainly is, not so much for the little children but for breaking his wows of celibacy), then the bishop can grant him the remission of his sins, or absolution. Imagine this as a discharge in a secular court of justice. It means that in the eyes of God, the priest is as pure as a newborn lamb. That's when the said priest can go back to his ministry and bug more little boys (or girls).
It even gets better : actually, if the little boy (or girl) seeks revenge and harms (physically or else) the priest under the influence of anger, and never confesses, he might well be directed in the after-life directly to hell, or at least receive a lenghty purgatory sentence. The confessed, repentant priest on the other hand, will go directly to paradise.
I hope you understand better how catholic morals works, now. In fact, according to christian theologians, whether catholic or reformed, morals would be impossible whithout religion. That could be the subject of another thread.





You're probably right.  This is why I think humanity and especially religious humanity are so fucking :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: easyskunkin]
    #18574073 - 07/17/13 11:48 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

easyskunkin said:
Another example is how many priests smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol like beasts in their spare time not really giving a fuck about their holy texts. When they get home late at night it's Tyson-time. I am sure the catholic hierarchy is no different, do you think pedo-priests would molest young children if they thoroughly believed in Christianity?

Your post shows you have not been raised a catholic. Let me share my modest knowledge on the matter, adquired throught an entire scholar cursus in catholic institutIons (until I went to a public university, that is). First, there is nothing in the gospel against drinking alcohol or smoking tobacco, the first even being compulsory for priests as a vampiresque ritual ("blood of Christ") during the celebration of mass. Second, priests can absolutely believe in all the dogmas of the Church and still molest little boys. Or little girls if they prefer, it doesn't matter, because one of the most marked differences between catholicism and reformed christianity is the possibility for confession, and absolution, in this life. In practice, that means the priest, after molesting the said children, can go to his hierarchical superior, the bishop, and confess. If his repentance is sincere, meaning if he is really sorry (and he certainly is, not so much for the little children but for breaking his wows of celibacy), then the bishop can grant him the remission of his sins, or absolution. Imagine this as a discharge in a secular court of justice. It means that in the eyes of God, the priest is as pure as a newborn lamb. That's when the said priest can go back to his ministry and bug more little boys (or girls).
It even gets better : actually, if the little boy (or girl) seeks revenge and harms (physically or else) the priest under the influence of anger, and never confesses, he might well be directed in the after-life directly to hell, or at least receive a lenghty purgatory sentence. The confessed, repentant priest on the other hand, will go directly to paradise.
I hope you understand better how catholic morals works, now. In fact, according to christian theologians, whether catholic or reformed, morals would be impossible whithout religion. That could be the subject of another thread.




Thanks for the information. :thumbup:

The view I put forth on priests were mainly directed towards protestant priests which I have "grown up with". Then again, I don't know much about catholicism or any other religion for that matter, being born agnostic or apatheistic.

My point still stands though.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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OnlineBrian Jones
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: easyskunkin]
    #18620054 - 07/27/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

easyskunkin said:
Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

easyskunkin said:

Yes, I understand your wiews, Liquidlounge. But I don't think you can compare the catholic church and a cigarette manufacturing company and just just assume both have the same operating modes. They have nothing in common imo.
Comparison between two unrelated things is not evidence.




They're very similar, both sell a cancerous addicting product.




I didn't try to defend the catholic faith, or any faith at all, but if someone brings forth conspiracy theories like Brian Jones did :
"This is a political game by a huge business organization. This miracles and sainthood business is strictly for the masses.
    It's just like when the U.S. goes to war. There are the real reasons decided upon by ultra-rich elites(...)"

Then I am interested in seeing evidence, because I don't believe in conspiracies. If I see convincing evidence for a conspiracy then I will change my belief.




First my statements were worded "I think that....." and "I don't think that....."
I was stating my opinions so no evidence is necessary or forthcoming.

Second, questions of faith are not amenable to evidence because faith is based on nonrational beliefs. That does not make them irrational, but they are clearly nonrational.

Third, if you don't believe in conspiracies how do you explain the decades of sexual abuse of boys that was covered up by higher members of the bureaucracy. In Philadelphia the States Attorney used the RICO Statutes (Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) in charging a high ranking Catholic official with covering up the sexual abuse, although this  official was accused of no sex crimes himself.
    Monsignor William Lynn, the highest ranking official convicted in the scandal was sentenced to 3-6 years in prison and the archdiocese faces lawsuits totaling $2 million in damages and legal costs of over $11 million.
    Nationwide, the Catholic sex scandal has caused billions in settlements and driven prominent U.S. Dioscese into bankruptcy.
    This is not just a crisis of faith, it is a crisis of business. And rest assured that the Catholic hierarchy will install bureaucrats into top positions to limit the Churches liability. There is a striking resemblance between the Catholic response and that of Tobacco companies dealing with massive lawsuits,


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: Brian Jones]
    #18620067 - 07/27/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:




Interesting post


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Invisibleeasyskunkin


Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 565
Re: The Pope becoming known as a Saint [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18624515 - 07/28/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)


First my statements were worded "I think that....." and "I don't think that....."
I was stating my opinions so no evidence is necessary or forthcoming.


I thought in a debate forums opinions could be debated too. If your opinions can not be subjected to critical analysis and debated, they are not worth more than faith.

Second, questions of faith are not amenable to evidence because faith is based on nonrational beliefs. That does not make them irrational, but they are clearly nonrational.

Whether the catholic church is a religion or a "business organization" is not a question of faith. But your opinion on the matter is indeed based on nonrational belief.

Third, if you don't believe in conspiracies how do you explain the decades of sexual abuse of boys that was covered up by higher members of the bureaucracy.

My wrong. I said "I don't believe in conspiracy theories" and should have subsequently repeated the word "theories" each time I wrote "conspiracy' but I thought it was made obvious by context.
You are confusing the legal acceptation of the word conspiracy with the concept of conspiracy theory, which is a simplistic explanation for complicated social and political issues, generally attributing to a hidden group of malevolent individuals the responsibility for historical events, as in "It's just like when the U.S. goes to war. There are the real reasons decided upon by ultra-rich elites, and then there are the reasons for the masses(...)" (your words).
Conspiracies (agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime) happen every day, like the one you describe in your last post, the Watergate, or illegal agreements between business corporations, etc... The fact they are uncovered by the press or law enforcement is one of the reasons to be skeptical about the existence of these vast conspiracies crackpots are ranting on about.

And rest assured that the Catholic hierarchy will install bureaucrats into top positions to limit the Churches liability.

How is the Catholic hierarchy "installing bureaucrats in top position" ? Does the Vatican fax the White House the list of "Bureaucrats to be installed in top position for the next promotion" ? If you mean that they will lobby elected officials and administrations to bend public policies towards their views and use Catholics in positions of power as levers, well of course they will. As everybody else does.


--------------------
L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)


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