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Offlinechaosgenerator
Filthy Teknoluvver
Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 88
Loc: miles above you in my hi-...
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any chemistry people out there re extraction
    #1862252 - 08/29/03 11:20 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Is there a way to xtract all the goodies from cubensis..without losing any potency...
I had thought about doing acid base extractions using ascorbic acid as this is an anti oxidant....Would using warmth to dry the residue detract from the potency....
When the solvent is taken from the mixture...would it be feasible to add more anti-oxidant ....
Please help with any suggestions....
Oh yeah is methanol sold as methlylated spirits in the UK?


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OfflineOpenminded
Dicotyledon

Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 657
Loc: England.
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: chaosgenerator]
    #1862456 - 08/29/03 01:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Methylate spirits is generally 90% ethanol, 5% methanol and 5% water. It varies, but it is always mainly ethanol with some water and the methanol that is used to denature it. And the dye of course.

Psilocin/psilocybin don't come out very well with an A/B extraction, since the -OH and -OPO3H2 groups, respectively, are acidic and can deprotonate in water to form ions, which are more soluble. A/B extractions work on the presumption that the freebase alkaloids are not very ionic and therefore are not very water soluble, whereas the salt forms, in acid solution, get their basic nitrogen atoms protonated, and this forms ions which are more water soluble. I don't have much time now, that probably isn't very clear. I'll come back and explain better in a few minutes...


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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
Loc: SE united states
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: chaosgenerator]
    #1862458 - 08/29/03 01:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...;o=&fpart=1

the tek toward the end of the thread seems to me to be the best. one may use 140 proof vodka made acidic with the addition of ascorbic acid to extract psilocin from ether then evaporate acidic alcohol under vacume or nitrogen/argon . this should yeild a mixture of psilocin and vitamin C wich should make things a little more stable in theory.


uneasy1


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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
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Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: uneasyone]
    #1862474 - 08/29/03 01:19 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i have read psilocybin dosen't a/b well but psilocin will


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OfflineOpenminded
Dicotyledon

Registered: 08/28/03
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Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: uneasyone]
    #1862530 - 08/29/03 01:46 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Psilocin would certainly be easier, since the -OPO3H2 on psilocybin is the more acidic of the two, and will therefore form ions more easily in water, leading to poorer definition in solubility between the protonated and deprotonated forms. Plus psilocybin can theoretically have four different forms depending on pH which can only complicate matters...
Maybe psilocin does A/B well, I haven't tried I am just working on theory.

I don't think you could perform an A/B extraction using ascorbic as your acid, I don't think it is acidic enough or the alkaloid is basic enough to get decent salt formation, but I may be wrong. I'd have to check the pKa's to be sure, but that sort of info is hard to find on psychoactives. BUT, it would be a good addition to prevent oxidation during the process.

If I was trying to extract actives, I wouldn't use an A/B. I'd just use a liquid butane extraction on dried & powdered shroomies. This is commonly used to extract THC (et al.) from cannabis, and is a great all-round non-polar solvent. The procedure is out there in a number of places. Butane also has the advantage that it evapourates quickly (boils at somewhere around 0*C), which means you won't need to heat it for prolonged periods to drive off the solvent, as you might have to if using a higher boiling point solvent, and therefore oxidation or other degradation of your psilocin is much less likely due to the lower times and temperature involved. Chloroform/perchloroethene or similar, or acetone, would be my next most likely choice of solvent.

But, as I have said, I haven't tried so I'm really not sure, I'm basically just spouting useless info :frown:. But I wouldn't do an A/B, too much opportunity for oxidation. A soxhlet would be useful...


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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
Loc: SE united states
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: Openminded]
    #1862562 - 08/29/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

what if one used ascorbic acid then added enough acetic acid to bring the ph down to 3 before extracting from ether both are known for there anti oxidant qualities or would vitamin c have some sort of funky reaction with the acetic acid ?


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anything i might say is just something i heard from the voices in my head
uneasy1


Edited by uneasyone (08/29/03 02:02 PM)


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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
Loc: SE united states
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: uneasyone]
    #1862579 - 08/29/03 02:05 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i have also read psilocybin freebase or salts is not soluble in nonpolars but psilocin freebase is


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anything i might say is just something i heard from the voices in my head
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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
Loc: SE united states
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: uneasyone]
    #1862682 - 08/29/03 02:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i just had a thought i think butane extraction would be great for mushrooms grown on tryptamine enhanced substrate because they have alot of psilocin and very little psilocybin :mushroom2:


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anything i might say is just something i heard from the voices in my head
uneasy1


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Invisibledoktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: uneasyone]
    #1863406 - 08/29/03 07:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

alright: a/b wont work too good.
dont use any heat or youll fuck your product: tryptamines are real sensetive and will heat-denature easily, acid/base degrade ect....

*remember, it is prolonged exposure to heat that will destroy goodly %'s of your stuff. store it in your freezer, but a quick flash of heat will result in minimal damage. this method converts psilocybin to psilocin, which is more air-sensetive.

this is what you gotta do:

A representative sample of 2 to 10g of dried mushrooms is ground to a fine powder by mortar and pestle. The powder is mixed with 100 mL of dilute acetic acid in a 250-mL beaker. The pH is readjusted to pH 4 with glacial acetic acid. After standing 1 h, the beaker is placed in a boiling water bath for 8 to 10 min or until the internal temperature of the acid mixture reaches 70?C. The beaker is removed and cooled to room temperature under running water (cool it faster in an ice bath). The acid mixture is separated from the mushroom powder by suction filtration using glass wool (normal filter paper will do). The filtrate is brought to pH 8 with concentrated ammonium hydroxide and quickly extracted with two 50-mL portions of diethyl ether. Gentle mixing instead of shaking should be used to prevent an emulsion. The ether is dried over sodium sulfate, filtered, and evaporated under nitrogen with no applied heat (or you can evap under a feduced atmosphere in the freezer).

Crude psilocin will appear as a greenish residue. Recrystallization from chloroform/heptane (1:3) yields white crystals. The resulting powder can then be submitted to infrared and mass spectral analyses.

alternatively, you can use anhydrous methanol to extract all the alkaloids in p. cubensis, followed by an evaporation under reduced atmosphere (using OTC methanol and normal room temp. evap is less than ideal but will bee fine) to yield a green solid that will be 20-25% psilocin/psilocybin, and will also contain all the other trace alkaloids present. you can get pure psilocin or psilocybin out of this with some advanced chromatography if you want... i, however, would just jelcap the lot of it. it is unknown which of the other constituents in p. cubensis are psychoactive, but there are enzyme inhibitors (MAOI) and such in there that have been identified. ive lost the original ref. for this procudure, but i remember the experimental gist of it. remember to test the mush with keller's reagent or another alkaloid test to be sure youve got all the goodies out before you huch the plant mass.
http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/psychedelicchemistry/chapter3.html

refs:

An Aqueous-Organic Extraction Method for the Isolation and Identification of Psilocin from Hallucinogenic Mushrooms
Casale, J. F.
Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 30, No. 1, pp. 247-250 (1985) (http://www.rhodium.ws/pdf/shroom.psilocin.extraction.pdf)


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Invisibledoktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: uneasyone]
    #1863407 - 08/29/03 07:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

alright: a/b wont work too good.
dont use any heat or youll fuck your product: tryptamines are real sensetive and will heat-denature easily, acid/base degrade ect....

*remember, it is prolonged exposure to heat that will destroy goodly %'s of your stuff. store it in your freezer, but a quick flash of heat will result in minimal damage. this method converts psilocybin to psilocin, which is more air-sensetive.

this is what you gotta do:

A representative sample of 2 to 10g of dried mushrooms is ground to a fine powder by mortar and pestle. The powder is mixed with 100 mL of dilute acetic acid in a 250-mL beaker. The pH is readjusted to pH 4 with glacial acetic acid. After standing 1 h, the beaker is placed in a boiling water bath for 8 to 10 min or until the internal temperature of the acid mixture reaches 70?C. The beaker is removed and cooled to room temperature under running water (cool it faster in an ice bath). The acid mixture is separated from the mushroom powder by suction filtration using glass wool (normal filter paper will do). The filtrate is brought to pH 8 with concentrated ammonium hydroxide and quickly extracted with two 50-mL portions of diethyl ether. Gentle mixing instead of shaking should be used to prevent an emulsion. The ether is dried over sodium sulfate, filtered, and evaporated under nitrogen with no applied heat (or you can evap under a feduced atmosphere in the freezer).

Crude psilocin will appear as a greenish residue. Recrystallization from chloroform/heptane (1:3) yields white crystals. The resulting powder can then be submitted to infrared and mass spectral analyses.

alternatively, you can use anhydrous methanol to extract all the alkaloids in p. cubensis, followed by an evaporation under reduced atmosphere (using OTC methanol and normal room temp. evap is less than ideal but will bee fine) to yield a green solid that will be 20-25% psilocin/psilocybin, and will also contain all the other trace alkaloids present. you can get pure psilocin or psilocybin out of this with some advanced chromatography if you want... i, however, would just jelcap the lot of it. it is unknown which of the other constituents in p. cubensis are psychoactive, but there are enzyme inhibitors (MAOI) and such in there that have been identified. ive lost the original ref. for this procudure, but i remember the experimental gist of it. remember to test the mush with keller's reagent or another alkaloid test to be sure youve got all the goodies out before you huch the plant mass.
http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/psychedelicchemistry/chapter3.html

refs:

An Aqueous-Organic Extraction Method for the Isolation and Identification of Psilocin from Hallucinogenic Mushrooms
Casale, J. F.
Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 30, No. 1, pp. 247-250 (1985) (http://www.rhodium.ws/pdf/shroom.psilocin.extraction.pdf)


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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
Loc: SE united states
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: doktor_alternate]
    #1864249 - 08/30/03 12:44 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i've read that extracting with alcohol will yeild urea along with alkaloids. aparently shrooms have lots of urea in them


--------------------
anything i might say is just something i heard from the voices in my head
uneasy1


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Invisibledoktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
Re: any chemistry people out there re extraction [Re: uneasyone]
    #1877875 - 09/03/03 04:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

thats right about alcohol getting urea. it IS an alkaliod, and it does smell nasty. hence the gelcap delivery mechanism, and only 25% or so of the alkaloids being 4-hydroxydimethyltryptamine (and its phosphate ester).


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