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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"?
    #1861670 - 08/29/03 04:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I went to the SolFest last weekend (link)--a great two days of lectures, music, talking with others into ecological living, and looking at cool new inventions.

Was it just my imagination, or were most of the few thousand people there left-leaners? If so, why is it that "conservatives" aren't as likely to be interested in stuff like this? Seems like environmentalism is the ultimate in conservatism.

Any ideas?

another link: alcoholcanbeagas


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InvisibleStarter
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Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 1,148
Loc: Australia
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: hongomon]
    #1861766 - 08/29/03 05:53 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It appears the more *publicly shown* are liberals, though there's a lot of rural "salt of the earth" type people who live daily with nature without the hype of the city. Wind rows that act as corridors, fenced dams with water troughs so hoofed animals don't foul the water, rain tanks, two-flush toilets, solar power...very common in rural Australia.


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Convert Metric and Imperial.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,791
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: hongomon]
    #1861782 - 08/29/03 06:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think the majority from any party want a clean world.

My take is.....
libbies put the world and its critters ahead of people.
Conservatives put people ahead of the world.

Or to put it a bit differently....
libbies want it NOW.
Conservatives are willing to ease into it.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: hongomon]
    #1862365 - 08/29/03 12:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i consider myself a libertarian, and i think that in the course of human relations, people should be free to do whatever they want, so long as they don't forcefully prevent others from doing the same... this is usually labelled as a conservative position.

at the same time, i view people as a part of the ecosystem and the ecosystem as a part of the earth. i wouldn't put the interests of human beings over the wellbeing of this planet and the Life that lives on it.

it's sometimes difficult for me to reconcile these two positions.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: hongomon]
    #1862382 - 08/29/03 12:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It's common sense to be more concerned about the planet than corporate profit margins. Lefties obviously have a little more common sense.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,791
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862433 - 08/29/03 12:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lefties obviously have a little more common sense.




Alpo, I knew you could be funny if you tried hard enough. I'm happy to see I was right.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1862448 - 08/29/03 01:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Steady on luv, you might finally make someone crack a smile if you carry on like this.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,791
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862455 - 08/29/03 01:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The difference is they'd be laughing with me rather than at you.  :wink:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1862854 - 08/29/03 03:26 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

because conservatives are selfish and liberals are gay
:smile: :smile: :smile:


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: ]
    #1863120 - 08/29/03 05:05 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
at the same time, i view people as a part of the ecosystem and the ecosystem as a part of the earth. i wouldn't put the interests of human beings over the wellbeing of this planet and the Life that lives on it.

it's sometimes difficult for me to reconcile these two positions.




That's about how I feel. I don't trust libertarianism or free market ideal to be sufficient. It's crazy, but it seems we have to fight two battles simultaneously--one against over-centralized government and one against over-centralized businesses.


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1863126 - 08/29/03 05:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
because conservatives are selfish and liberals are gay
:smile: :smile: :smile:




I'm selfish now and then and never gay, suddenly I'm right-leaning?  :grin: 


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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: hongomon]
    #1863161 - 08/29/03 05:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Here's what a guy at another forum said to me:

(To my questions--In what way, in your opinion, would you differentiate yourself from the liberals there?

Also, what libs-cons ratio would you give a typical SolFest-like thing?)



"Well, for one I never threatened violence (The one I

went to in July almost turned into me going home

hurt...) second I LISTEN to their argument before

giving mine not screaming "Your wrong" and I

would say a [liberal:conservative] ratio of 6:1 (in NY)

conservatives in NY know their not welcomed...Me, I could

care Less if I'm wanted there or not...I like music and people and

YES I feel a fEW of their opinions are Reasonable

though not enough to be one"



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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: hongomon]
    #1863458 - 08/29/03 07:19 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hongomon said:
That's about how I feel. I don't trust libertarianism or free market ideal to be sufficient. It's crazy, but it seems we have to fight two battles simultaneously--one against over-centralized government and one against over-centralized businesses.



Many of the problems with businesses can be traced to government favoritism towards businesses over individuals, and the treatment of business as entities deserving of the same rights as individuals. Corporate law grants businesses rights of flesh and blood people yet shields those who operate them from their own folly or malicious actions. Additionally, corporate tax laws grant write offs and deductions not available to individuals.

A few years ago while the 'dot com' bubble was in full swing I read of a local man who started and ran two businesses into bankruptcy (with investor funding), then started an internet business of questionable worth. Ignorant people poured millions of dollars into this questionable venture, the man gave himself a 7 figure income, bought multi-million dollar properties and received many other 'perks.' This third venture also went bankrupt, but all of the man's holding were personal property, obtained via legal compensation from his company. The foolish investors were left poor and he became a millionaire. Because all of his companies were incorporated, he was able to avoid all legal and personal responsibility for his actions.

Very few 'free market' conservatives or 'capitalist' libertarians recognize that corporate laws in fact grant corporate privledge and in a pure free market system such laws should not exist. On the other hand, most leftists or socialists use the results of government granted corporate privledge as an indictment of capitalism, and blame the 'free market.' I think that the problems of over-centralized government and over-centralized businesses are related, each benefits from the other and each serves to bolster the other.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 25 days
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1863796 - 08/29/03 10:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Good post!


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 3 days
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: ]
    #1864777 - 08/30/03 03:42 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

it's sometimes difficult for me to reconcile these two positions.




Why do you find it hard? If peoples actions contribute to further destroying the environment then they are infringing upon the rights of other human beings arent they? as well as all other life on the planet.


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Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1864919 - 08/30/03 04:38 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

^^^My thoughts exactly.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1865057 - 08/30/03 06:43 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think big business and big government are one in the same. I don't think the libertarian idea of capitalism will work because it would just turn business more beaucratic than ever,to the point where it will be synonymous with big government.

And I'm really suprised that more libertarians aren't enviromentalists.Like someone else pointed out,when you fuck up the the environment,you infringe on other's rights.

I agree that some environmentalists are out of hand zealots,but I do think the environment should be put before people. People rely on the environment.See last paragraph.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by grandmasterfat (08/30/03 06:45 AM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: monoamine]
    #1865200 - 08/30/03 09:37 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

grandmasterfat writes:

I think big business and big government are one in the same.

Under the current "western" system of government in the so-called "free world", the connection is very close, yes. Libertarians and Laissez-faire Capitalists point out that under Capitalism, the government has no power over the economy whatsoever, so this connection couldn't exist.

I don't think the libertarian idea of capitalism will work because it would just turn business more beaucratic than ever,to the point where it will be synonymous with big government.

Who cares whether or not businesses become more bureaucratic? Business could never be synonymous with government, since governments force you to deal with them, while businesses try to persuade you to deal with them.

pinky


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: Phred]
    #1865261 - 08/30/03 10:42 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Who cares whether or not businesses become more bureaucratic? Business could never be synonymous with government, since governments force you to deal with them, while businesses try to persuade you to deal with them.
pinky




Um, they sure could become synonymous.. especially when old companies Dick Cheney used to run get millions of dollars in contracts in Iraq.. The government can give certain companies (the ones that payback to those politicans) unimaginable power in certain areas.. think about the Bush and Microsoft connection, and how when Bush came into office, all of the Microsoft breakup threats from the government just sort of disappeared..

Maybe some sort of "you scratch my back/I scratch yours" deal? Microsoft still has the power to hold a large beast of a monopoly in the computer operating world, even getting X-Boxes in the homes to influence young kids and get them connected to the Microsoft network (ahh, kids are so impressionable.. and if they get glued to thei X-Box, complete with the network connection, what they see and pick up is competely controlled by Microsoft.. quite some power, there), we can only start to wonder what Bush is getting out of the deal (I don't think it is limited to campaign donations).
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleStarter
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Re: Why are environmentalists usually "libbies"? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1865318 - 08/30/03 11:45 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think for sake of balance it should be noted that communist regimes have had appalling eco-destruction records. Inefficient industry, non-existant regulations and that reflects in their appalling human rights abuses. Shit, the Russians just had a nuke sub sink. A direct consequence of the failings of communism that has left a terrible legacy.

What can be said of capitalism is that green capitalism does work. If one can make a product cheaper by recycling, they will. If one can get power cheaper by renewable energy, they will. If one can get less overheads in business by better efficiency, i.e. smaller cars to courier, they will.

Furthermore, we as consumers can vote with our dollar and shame the offenders into changing their ways as well as make it known to our politicians. Just the sort of thing people in communist states never enjoyed.


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Convert Metric and Imperial.


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