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Invisiblejkz
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A cube is a cube, right or wrong?!
    #18603877 - 07/24/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Okay so I'm still new to this hobby, but after reading through a literal fuckton of information I've come to my own conclusion.

The answer is.. BOTH!

People get mixed up with this:
There is more then one kind of 'Magic' mushroom. And they all vary in potency, but their not all cubes and other species require different growth parameters.

The differences in strains is where the original mushroom originated. This is why some people find X strain better then Y strain. Potency is determined by GENETICS and how well their GROWN. You cannot say "B+ are stronger then Z-strain". I've had B+ that were SO good, and had John Allen's that were crap. Two weeks later, the exact opposite occurred. It's all variable. The same applies to growth parameters. All cubes have the same growth parameters, but some prefer deferent temps, etc. This is why different 'strains' of cubes grow everywhere. But that being said, they are ALL cubes.

Some strains just grow better in certain places then other strains will.

Personally, I think people should try different strains and see what GROWS best for you, in your environment with your preferred way to grow. I hope this helps people out.

BTW: Penis envy and Albinos (Cuz I know someone is going to ask..) are exceptions to the rule because there not normal cubes.

Happy growing everyone!


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: jkz]
    #18603909 - 07/24/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I touched on this briefly a few days ago I'll see if I can find the post.
But I will say that your conclusion is kind of accurate.


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Tmethyl] * 2
    #18603934 - 07/24/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Here's a clip, but you can read the discussion if you like.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18582702

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
It's a tricky subject because so many people have a strong preconception, including myself.
As some know, most strains are just marketing tactics. I agree with that. All strains of P.cubensis are the same species, and have trivial or marginal differences. All 'strains' or 'cultivars' (which are both blatantly improper terms, even 'var. or variation' are improper). All 'strains' will grow in the same conditions, and have the same exact fruiting parameters. A true strain is what happens when 2 spores germinate and their hyphae meet/mate and begin producing dicaryotic mycelium - that is a true fungal strain, these are not plants we're dealing with. Each spore syringe has millions of strains.

But what people don't discuss or debate is genetic memory.
Mainly because there is a lack of research on fungal genetic memory, and a lack of logical and practical terms.

What I do know is mushroom genetics can be trained over time, and certain appealing characteristics and cultural parameters can be saved in the DNA and carried on to the next true generation. I say "true" because a true generation is going from spore to fruit back to spore again, cloning is not a new generation it's the continuation of an existing generation, and is temporary due to genetic senescense or the aging of dividing cells.

I'll try to close this off;

If a mushroom which grows in the wild and fruits at 60F is gradually fruited in temps higher and higher, over the course of many true generations the genetic preference of fruiting parameters can and will adjust (or evolve, or mutate, whatever you prefer) and this mushrooms will fruit at higher and higher temps over time(This has been done with Shitake). The end product would be a genetically different mushroom of the same species. Same macroscopic structures and microscopic stuctures, just a different genetic memory/preference. Now continue to have changing parameters and the mushrooms body may change, it's metabolites may change, this would take thousands or millions of years, and this is how species are born.

It is said the the mother Psilocybe, or the 'original' Psilocybe resides in New Zealand, it's Psilocybe weraroa.
It's more of a puffball-like mushroom shaped like a lollypop. But this is likely the first Psilocybe. All other Psilocybes were likely at one time, this species. Through time they evolved into new species, because of environmental/cultural predatory or even botanical-associate differences.

What I mean to say here is that even though the 'strains' we speak of are all the same species, and likely have the same potency and fruiting parameters and are most definitely marketing tactics, they are different. Marginally different, but at different stages in evolution.

I would be lying if I said they were all the same macroscopically as well. In my growing experience all true 'Thailand strains' are different.
Every. single. grow. even from MS have point caps, and dark yellow stipes, if you juxtapose them next to a cubensis from FL or Texas, they look like an entirely different species. As for all my grows done with Amazonian, they for some reason have an extremely well-developed and THICK annulus(veil)
this could actually be an evolutionary development to protect the gills from insect attackers, or even fungal attacks like Hypomyces. The goals with a thick veil would be to protect the gills until they actually begin to sporulate, THEN the veils falls away and they are guaranteed to release spores before being attacked by fungal gnats, maggots, slugs, etc.

This is why I do not discount your theory, EarthTalker. Amazonian Psilocybe mushrooms most certainly could have picked up some environmental preferences over the course of millions of years of tropical jungle life, and even some macroscopic changes have taken place (I believe) and maybe a few millions years from now they will even be a different species.

Does this make sense?




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InvisibleViolet
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: jkz]
    #18603944 - 07/24/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

^Perfect answer.
I came here to express a similar answer in brief, only to find the most comprehensive explanation of exactly what I'd have said.
Good one Tmethyl


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Tmethyl]
    #18603963 - 07/24/13 09:48 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

i've been studying the same subject, & i just can't wrap my head around the blanket assumption that a cube is a cube is a cube... my thoughts are:

1) i've grown several strains... yes, they all used the same growing parameters... but in the end, the Columbian Rust Spores, the Ecuadors, & the PES Amazonians all seemed to have minor differences in psychoactive effects... i felt them, & blind tested my friends... the Colubmians seemed to cause the giggles, the Ecuadors came with crushing body loads, & the Amazons were almost purely visual... this was by my own observation, and by the reports of friends who merely knew they were "trippping some shrooms..."  so i think there are minute differences somewhere in there...

2) if a cube is a cube is a cube, shouldn't it follow that a Canis lupus familiaris is a Canis lupus familiaris is a Canis lupus familiaris?.. they are the same species, after all, with the same growing parameters... feed 'em twice a day, give 'em their shots, listen to 'em bark... even at that, there are tremendous differences between a Pitbull a Pomeranian & a Jack Russel Terrier...

i tend to believe that the racial differences within a particular genus/species can be signigicant...


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: leon trout]
    #18604136 - 07/24/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Fascinating,  thread.
I am sorry if this is a stupid
question..but are any of the strains sold by
the sponsors here Psilocybe Subcubensis?
Is that a strain itself?


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OfflineMacMerdin
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Esmash]
    #18604335 - 07/24/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

If Ps. cyanescens and Ps. allenii can be classified as two different species just by having a few different macroscopic features while being identical microscopically, then a cube is NOT a cube is NOT a cube IMO. 

Not to mention the whole "except such and such".  The minute there is an exception to a rule, the rule is no longer valid.

Just my opinion on the matter.


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Edited by MacMerdin (07/24/13 11:37 AM)

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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: jkz]
    #18604359 - 07/24/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Every cubensis strain (a genetic mating of two spores) can have its own unique macro traits, but they are all similar on the microscopic level.

Varieties, or "strains" as vendors call them, are spores that supposedly tend towards one or more phenotypes that the species can produce.  But really most of that is just marketing, fruits tend to all look pretty similar under similar conditions. Different conditions = different fruit presentation.


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OfflineMacMerdin
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18604370 - 07/24/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I also agree with what Frank said if that makes sense?

"They are different but the same" would be a way to put it IMO.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: MacMerdin] * 1
    #18604732 - 07/24/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BTW: Penis envy and Albinos (Cuz I know someone is going to ask..) are exceptions to the rule because there not normal cubes.



Which is about the equivalent of saying midgets and blacks aren't normal humans. :eek:

Genetic diversity among a species is perfectly normal.


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Invisiblejkz
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kizzle]
    #18604953 - 07/24/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

BTW: Penis envy and Albinos (Cuz I know someone is going to ask..) are exceptions to the rule because there not normal cubes.



Which is about the equivalent of saying midgets and blacks aren't normal humans. :eek:

Genetic diversity among a species is perfectly normal.




True enough. Never thought of it that way. Thanks.


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kizzle] * 1
    #18605101 - 07/24/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Good point Kizzle and I think it deserves some discussion.
Rationally and indiscriminately evaluating human genetic diversity is a great way to make genetic comparisons with mushrooms.

First thing you have to understand is the human species is sectioned off into major Races.
So I guess you could label humans as such: 
Genus: Homo
Species: sapien
Race: hispanic or black or  caucasian or oriental

Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.

'Race' is the equivalent to 'variation/var.' when talking about fungus. (In my opinion, and according to my research)

Take Amanita mucaria for example.
Genus: Amanita
Species: muscaria
Var. formosa or flavivolvota or muscaria


To conclude, both races and variations are the same species but with some physical differences.
Certain characteristics such as a broad nose, or a thick veil are consistent no matter the environmental conditions.
This is why they're called var. or race.
Psilocybe cubensis has no recognized variations.
This doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means nobody has done extensive genetic sequencing on P.cubensis from all over the world and compared the genetic differences.


And lastly, a midget is a mutation and a black technically is not a normal human depending on who is speaking.
Its subjective because everyone likely considers their own race 'the normal race':lol:


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Invisiblejkz
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Tmethyl]
    #18605451 - 07/24/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I'm glad I posted this. Alot of good information here. Thanks everyone for your input! I think I'll put it in my sig.. :smile:


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InvisibleKjetterfaen
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: jkz]
    #18605653 - 07/24/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I think OP and Tmethyl is speaking a lot of sense; cubensis is subject to the basic patterns of evolving life, just as everything else. Fortunately, the lifecycle of a mushroom is rather short, so given the right conditions I'm guessing we should be able to observe noteworthy changes in a lineage within a human lifetime. Though, you can never remove anything in evolutionary terms; so a fungi will remain a fungi, a psilocybe will remain a psilocybe, and a cube will forever remain a cube no matter what hideous monster you might be able to breed forth from it over the decades.. So; "yes and no" seems like a sensible layman's answer if nothing else.

I'm not sure the "race = variation" analogy works though. Race (as applied to humans) is one way to distinguish variations (and no less a mutation then dwarfism by the way), but it's not the definition of genetic variation in humans. It's just a rather broad and obvious one.

I have no experience in mycology though, so take it for what its worth, but I think I have a functional grasp of evolution. I hope.

Edited by Kjetterfaen (07/24/13 04:29 PM)

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kjetterfaen]
    #18606463 - 07/24/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

fascinating read!  :jah:


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Pestile]
    #18606708 - 07/24/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

A fascinating conversation took place in the marketplace a few days ago. (also in my sig) according to Allan Rockefeller, all the stone forming Ps. are mexicana. Their spores will hybridize. He also hinted that, azures, cyans, and libs, and alleni may hybridize as well. 

Apparently mycologist are species hungry, and not very organized, and have misclassified a ton of species. All of our crazy psychedelic spore print collections may in reality only contain 4 truely distinct species.


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Invisiblejkz
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #18608038 - 07/25/13 03:18 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

malicom said:
A fascinating conversation took place in the marketplace a few days ago. (also in my sig) according to Allan Rockefeller, all the stone forming Ps. are mexicana. Their spores will hybridize. He also hinted that, azures, cyans, and libs, and alleni may hybridize as well. 

Apparently mycologist are species hungry, and not very organized, and have misclassified a ton of species. All of our crazy psychedelic spore print collections may in reality only contain 4 truely distinct species.





Now see, this is astounding. It's the stuff like this that keep me interested in this hobby. And I like to watch things grow :p


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InvisibleEsmash
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: jkz]
    #18609972 - 07/25/13 02:28 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

haha cool signature my friend :smile:
very informative.


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Invisiblejkz
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Esmash]
    #18610046 - 07/25/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Always nice to learn something :smile:


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InvisibleGretchenmeister
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: jkz]
    #18610631 - 07/25/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Here is the real deal mk....

What we commonly call strain is actually the SUB SPECIES or SUB VARIETY. 

The Facts
For psilocybe cubensis: the GENUS is Psilocybe and the SPECIES is cubensis. 

The SUB SPECIES (sub variety), is what we have for a few decades mis dubbed as a "strain".

Mycological taxonomists debate acknowledging further dividing or identifying p. cube's sub species because microscopically "sub-strains" do not show differentiation.

Still puzzles me how sub species behave when co mingled though. 

My Opinion
As far as a "cube is a cube", I agree in one sense, but feel some sub varieties often have their own idiosyncrasies. And while it is true there are general parameters for cube growth, I feel the geographic variations can be related to location specific conditions. 

An example of the above would be the P. Cube variety found in Texas, which is known to tolerate and perform well in the lower spectrum of P. Cube humidity parameters, and higher than normal P. Cube indicated temperatures. Differences in sub varieties in my opinion are noted to be subtle , but notable nonetheless.


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Offlinevladtepes
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kizzle]
    #18611281 - 07/25/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

BTW: Penis envy and Albinos (Cuz I know someone is going to ask..) are exceptions to the rule because there not normal cubes.



Which is about the equivalent of saying midgets and blacks aren't normal humans. :eek:

Genetic diversity among a species is perfectly normal.





Midget is a perjorative term for dwarfism, and people with this condition are not considered 'normal'. It is a defect after all, and it causes them health problems, and is caused by health problems. Not to say they are not human beings that should be treated as such, but when something is not right to the point where is causes the person problems I would not say "everything is normal here". It would be an abnormality. No offense to little people, but it is a condition.

And black people are not a good comparison to albinos. Albino people would be a more logical comparison, which is also a abnormality or a defect that causes problems for them.

Mutants are are not a race, they are an abnormality. Often caused by a genetic defect.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: vladtepes]
    #18611324 - 07/25/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

vladtepes said:
Mutants are are not a race, they are an abnormality. Often caused by a genetic defect.



Single instance mutations, yes.
However, diversions of specie lines are oft due to mutations that continue to appear in the genetic line and become enough variation to warrant an individual species name.
With such manners of permanent genetic mutations such as the consistent leucistics, albinos, rare spore colors, or other variations such as PE, that may so happen to become traits of their own genetic line, the question becomes: Where do we draw the line at which they could be considered "of their own"? It's more a question of opinion, but so is the definition of a "fact" when it comes to these matters anyways.


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OfflineSillyputty67

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Violet]
    #18611724 - 07/25/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

The Hills Have Eyes  :eyemonster:


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #18612015 - 07/25/13 09:14 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Midget is a perjorative term for dwarfism, and people with this condition are not considered 'normal'. It is a defect after all, and it causes them health problems, and is caused by health problems. Not to say they are not human beings that should be treated as such, but when something is not right to the point where is causes the person problems I would not say "everything is normal here". It would be an abnormality. No offense to little people, but it is a condition.



Yeah I probably should have used a better example than midgets :lol:

Here's a better one, if I bought a pit bull and bought a german shepherd I would consider both of the normal.

Assuming for a moment that your average PE is more potent than your average non-PE, all that would mean is PE spores are more likely to produce potent strains. You can isolate potent strains from any variety.


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kizzle]
    #18613267 - 07/26/13 04:11 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I was under the impression that a species was defined by its ability to mate and produce offspring.


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Offlinevaneazy
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: vladtepes]
    #18613952 - 07/26/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

if cubes are cubes, why doesnt everyone just grow ecuadors forever? lol they get huge (supposedly) and that would lead to more trip for your effort lol  do yo guys grow different varities just for the hell of it too see what they are like?

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: vaneazy]
    #18613964 - 07/26/13 09:57 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

vaneazy said:
if cubes are cubes, why doesnt everyone just grow ecuadors forever? lol they get huge (supposedly) and that would lead to more trip for your effort lol  do yo guys grow different varities just for the hell of it too see what they are like?



There is nothing special about ecuadors, they are just cubes.

They are not known to produce bigger fruits than any other variety.

Fruit size is mostly dependent upon moisture content and genetics, which will always vary when dealing with spores, regardless of the name some vendor gave them.

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! *DELETED* [Re: PussyFart]
    #18614134 - 07/26/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

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Reason for deletion: 1



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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: PussyFart]
    #18614196 - 07/26/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Very informative thread.

Although one quick question on the subject; from what I understand, PE is on average stronger then "insert strain". Is it just a genetic mutation similar to "redboy" having redish spores, or albino having no pigment?


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Edited by Jimmyhunter1000 (07/26/13 10:55 AM)

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #18614204 - 07/26/13 10:56 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

malicom said:
penis envy known to be more potent. B+ is know to produce bunk fruit.



There is no hard evidence that proves this, it is all speculation.

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! *DELETED* [Re: PussyFart]
    #18614279 - 07/26/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by malicom

Reason for deletion: 1



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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #18614294 - 07/26/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Exceptions to the rule, are penis envy known to be more potent. B+ is know to produce bunk fruit.



Yet B+ can produce potent mushrooms and PE can produce bunk mushrooms. Potency is a attribute of individual strains not a consistent attribute of any particular variety.

So a Cube is a Cube. They can be potent or bunk regardless of variety. The same goes with most other qualities, colonization speed, quantity of pins produced, etc.


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kizzle]
    #18614316 - 07/26/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Precisely, Kizzle.


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #18614338 - 07/26/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

malicom said:
Ive seen bunk b+ fruit. How potent were those PE isolates you grew hacker?



I have been eating my PE6, not really any PE yet.

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! *DELETED* [Re: Tmethyl]
    #18614357 - 07/26/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by malicom

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #18614381 - 07/26/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

malicom said:
So all that b+ is more often bunk, and pe is more often more potent is just opinion?

A lot of folks around here swear by this.



It is all speculation.

There is no proof that one is on average more potent than any other.

It is just peoples opinions.

I have had people tell me my PE were more potent than regular cubes....but it makes me wonder....if I never told them what they were, would they still think that....

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: PussyFart]
    #18614395 - 07/26/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Zackly Hacker, placebo effect.


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Sillyputty67] * 1
    #18614433 - 07/26/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

malicom said:
So all that b+ is more often bunk, and pe is more often more potent is just opinion?

A lot of folks around here swear by this.



It could be true to some degree but you'd be surprised how often someone will post something like "I think I got the wrong strain. I thought these were supposed to colonize fast or be potent or whatever"

The bottom line is when you start isolating strains or even simply cloning without isolating such difference would be meaningless anyway because you're growing the strains with the qualities you want regardless of how often they may appear in a MS grow.


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kizzle]
    #18617870 - 07/26/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Are albinos intelligent?

Do Mexicans make good mechanics?

Are Greeks good dancers?

Are tall people good at math?

Are Amazons potent?

Are Cambodians contam resistant?

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: PocketRevolution]
    #18618523 - 07/27/13 05:40 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PocketRevolution said:
Are albinos intelligent?

Do Mexicans make good mechanics?

Are Greeks good dancers?

Are tall people good at math?

Are Amazons potent?

Are Cambodians contam resistant?



Yes.

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: PussyFart]
    #18618524 - 07/27/13 05:41 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: B_BOY]
    #18618601 - 07/27/13 06:33 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Seems to me though that if a strain can consistently produce a macroscopic feature such as mutated fruit that a strain could also produce consistent microscopic features.

I mean has anyone ever grown PE that looks like a normal cube? Or Ape that was not leucistic?

Perhaps a spore print of a particular race is like a family of that race? And the 'strains' that you get from one of these races of cube is more like the offspring of that family?

For example. Ecuador is the race, then "insert marketed 'strain' name" is a family of that race, and the millions of potential strains in the spore print are the potential offspring of that family.

A race shares characteristics, a family within that race shares even more characteristics, The children of that family will share those characteristics, but also bring random new characteristics to the table, to a varied degree.


Quote:

PocketRevolution said:
Are albinos intelligent?

Do Mexicans make good mechanics?

Are Greeks good dancers?

Are tall people good at math?

Are Amazons potent?

Are Cambodians contam resistant?





White men can't jump!

But the Masai of Africa sure can! Is it cultural? Or is it genetic? Or perhaps a little of both? Perhaps the environmental conditions shape the culture which directs the genetics.

I feel like a lot of people ignore genetic traits associated with certain races because of the stigma attached to stereotyping. I think there is a fine line between stereotyping and noticing genetic traits. I feel these genetic traits are beautiful and nothing that we should be shy about pointing out.

Edited by vladtepes (07/27/13 07:00 AM)

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: vladtepes]
    #18619142 - 07/27/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

^ i like what he said

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: vladtepes]
    #18620798 - 07/27/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

vladtepes said:
I feel like a lot of people ignore genetic traits associated with certain races because of the stigma attached to stereotyping. I think there is a fine line between stereotyping and noticing genetic traits. I feel these genetic traits are beautiful and nothing that we should be shy about pointing out.




I generally agree, both when it comes to humans and fungi, but you should think carefully before attributing social factors to genetics. I mean, just to specifically comment on one of the questions above, "Do Mexicans make good mechanics?"; yes they often do in terms of availability and affordability contra efficiency, but that is socioeconomics, not genetics. If I were to go "Mexicans are genetically superior mechanics" I would be doing the other mechanics a disservice, not to mention it would be a pretty underhanded compliment towards the Mexicans.

Anyhow; I am certainly going way off of the original topic here, I just think it's an interesting subject.

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kjetterfaen]
    #18621150 - 07/27/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kjetterfaen said:
Quote:

vladtepes said:
I feel like a lot of people ignore genetic traits associated with certain races because of the stigma attached to stereotyping. I think there is a fine line between stereotyping and noticing genetic traits. I feel these genetic traits are beautiful and nothing that we should be shy about pointing out.




I generally agree, both when it comes to humans and fungi, but you should think carefully before attributing social factors to genetics. I mean, just to specifically comment on one of the questions above, "Do Mexicans make good mechanics?"; yes they often do in terms of availability and affordability contra efficiency, but that is socioeconomics, not genetics. If I were to go "Mexicans are genetically superior mechanics" I would be doing the other mechanics a disservice, not to mention it would be a pretty underhanded compliment towards the Mexicans.

Anyhow; I am certainly going way off of the original topic here, I just think it's an interesting subject.




Your definitely right. I wonder if social factors could effect genetics though. Perhaps through selective breeding. For instance, The one with a higher social status might be more attractive to the opposite sex. Or our culture might outline our breeding habits altogether. It almost goes along with the stoned ape theory, where cognitive factors guide evolution, perhaps even speed it up.

It is off topic, but in a way its relative. What a fungus 'does' to adapt could perhaps be compared to a social factor.


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Violet]
    #18621299 - 07/27/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

vladtepes said:
Mutants are are not a race, they are an abnormality. Often caused by a genetic defect.



Single instance mutations, yes.
However, diversions of specie lines are oft due to mutations that continue to appear in the genetic line and become enough variation to warrant an individual species name.
With such manners of permanent genetic mutations such as the consistent leucistics, albinos, rare spore colors, or other variations such as PE, that may so happen to become traits of their own genetic line, the question becomes: Where do we draw the line at which they could be considered "of their own"? It's more a question of opinion, but so is the definition of a "fact" when it comes to these matters anyways.




Once the mutation is stable and doesn't recede within a few generations of mixing with "the general populace" I would say you have a new variation. Technically I suppose you have the new variation at the very first instance of the trait, but you don't go around inventing an entirely new classification just because one batch of mushrooms has a less pronounced cap then the rest, I assume.

Is there actually some kind of consensus as to what is a "proper variation" in mycology? I seem to remember reading something about classification of species or sub-species based on spore coloration, which all sounded a bit clunky and unscientific to me, but when you get right down to it I really have no clue about the classification procedure here.

On a sidenote in regards to mutation; its worth remembering that even in human society we have villages or townships where extra digits on limbs are common in most families (no need to explain how this came about, aye?). Not even in the most prone family in the most prone area would you be guaranteed that children are born with extra digits. And even if your lineage hasn't included a person of a different skin tone than you in generations your baby may very well come out a different shade then you and your spouse. I assume there is no reason to think that this wouldn't apply to mushrooms as well (well, cloning of course). A stable mutation is only stable for a given value.

Edited by Kjetterfaen (07/27/13 09:28 PM)

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Kjetterfaen]
    #18686619 - 08/10/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe, but seems everyone has a fav for whatever reason suits them. Different strokes.

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: budkatz] * 1
    #18686729 - 08/10/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Personal opinion is based simply on the nature of life.

I personally believe that IF in a human lifetime a mushroom can be cultured to grow like a dick through selective "breeding", Than it is impossible to say that X variety from This place will be identical to Y variety somewhere totally different.  If we (humans) could tailor something like this, mother nature surely has worked her hand with other varieties.  There is no doubt that nature does everything in its power to stack odds in its favor, and since no 2 places are identical, there must have been minor adjustments to growth parameters over successive generations.  Life is a race to breed and die.  The winners are the best at what they do.  I have said it before, But it is foolish to believe that there would not be minor adaptations.  It goes against the theory of evolution (No the world is not 6400 years old either). 

This is a theory:

If you use an identical system EVERY grow, using the same substrate, same conditions etc, and spore print AND use that print on the next grow, there will be successive changes to suit itself to the conditions you present.  After a year, one could have gone 5-6 full life cycles or more....and so on.  The changes may not ever be apparent unless down the line you change your substrate.  It may take better or worse to it.  I am thinking that one could hypothetically make a "variety" that does better on coir, while having another that does well with hpoo.  The differences however, would probably be minor and/or not even visible.

At the end of the day, there is not a lot of proof for either side of this debate.  Yes I think that a cube is a cube, but there are differences depending on conditions that existed, and they will continue to adapt to what we give them.  A human is a human, a dog is a dog...  Domesticating mushrooms will certainly show these adaptations.  We have to remember, 20 years ago communication like we have now was non-existent.  This is probably why there is nothing on PE.  Where did it come from, who cultured it, and why did they like dicks so much?

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18686752 - 08/10/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

:whathesaid: "Why did they like dicks so much?" :lol:


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: Nakor420]
    #18686912 - 08/10/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

This is my train of thought as well :smile: glad someone agrees


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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: jkz]
    #18687940 - 08/10/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jkz said:
This is my train of thought as well :smile: glad someone agrees



Mycology has become quite popular with "every day Joes" over the last decade.  Just looking over these forums at posts 10 years ago shows how much has already changed.

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Re: A cube is a cube, right or wrong?! [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18688105 - 08/10/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Whippy said:
Quote:

jkz said:
This is my train of thought as well :smile: glad someone agrees



Mycology has become quite popular with "every day Joes" over the last decade.  Just looking over these forums at posts 10 years ago shows how much has already changed.





Agreed. It's easy to get confused if you don't look at the post date.


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