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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: Learyfan]
    #1865289 - 08/30/03 09:21 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
The Bush administration keep on easing us out of democracy.


 




No, not our President Bush! He's our hero fighting the good fight on all fronts! :grin:

Thank god that elections are still allowed, even though he seems to have an ability to reverse the outcome of them to fit his own needs...
Peace.


--------------------
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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1865542 - 08/30/03 11:20 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Learyfan said:
The Bush administration keep on easing us out of democracy.


 




No, not our President Bush! He's our hero fighting the good fight on all fronts! :grin:

Thank god that elections are still allowed, even though he seems to have an ability to reverse the outcome of them to fit his own needs...
Peace. 




O god not another one :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And since America was never a democracy it leads me to bealive that what learyfan said was just purely an atempt at trashing bush, but now that couldnt be?


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,012
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 15 minutes
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: d33p]
    #1865857 - 08/30/03 01:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

And since America was never a democracy it leads me to bealive that what learyfan said was just purely an atempt at trashing bush, but now that couldnt be?




You act as if I don't slag Bush based on what I feel he's doing to our country/world.





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Mp3 of the month: The Mamas and The Papas - Strange Young Girls



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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: d33p]
    #1866312 - 08/30/03 03:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
And since America was never a democracy it leads me to bealive that what learyfan said was just purely an atempt at trashing bush, but now that couldnt be? 


Bush said "As a shining beacon of freedom and DEMOCRACY, America has inspired the world"!  Are you calling our president a liar???  :shocked:   


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
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Re: Politics of Porn [Re: Clover]
    #1866394 - 08/30/03 04:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

maybe the girls do want to be in it but some of the stuff is real sick

like ,I have "heard" hehehe that their is porn out there that is simulated rape, etc etc

hell I like porn but some of this stuff really makes me wonder, and vommit, not max hardcore though, thats not the SICK shit out there



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OfflineClover
phenomenal woman
Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 99
Loc: Beyond the Veil
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Re: Politics of Porn [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1867368 - 08/30/03 11:42 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I did not question whether or not women wanted to be "included" in porn, I stated that they are more likely to *view* it when given the opportunity. The dichotomy I was attempting to illustrate was between women involving themselves in rape fantasy or role-play and knowing at the same time the purpose of rape.


--------------------
"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,012
Loc: High pride!
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Re: Politics of Porn [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1867415 - 08/31/03 12:07 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

simulated rape, etc




I've never seen one and don't want to, but that's absolutely abhorrent to me. Just the idea that guys are beating off to videos of simulated rape.





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Mp3 of the month: The Mamas and The Papas - Strange Young Girls



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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: Learyfan]
    #1867420 - 08/31/03 12:09 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Well,if they want to beat of to simulated rape,that's their thing. As long as they don't do it in real life,what's the problem?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,012
Loc: High pride!
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Re: Politics of Porn [Re: monoamine]
    #1868402 - 08/31/03 12:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think simulated rape porn should be illegal. Simply for the fact that they don't make simulated murder movies illegal.

I just think it's sad that rape gets some guys off is all.




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Mp3 of the month: The Mamas and The Papas - Strange Young Girls



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Anonymous

Re: Politics of Porn [Re: wingnutx]
    #1868423 - 08/31/03 01:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The Perils of Pornophobia
by Nadine Strossen

In 1992, in response to a complaint, officials at Pennsylvania State University unceremoniously removed Francisco de Goya's masterpiece, The Nude Maja, from a classroom wall. The complaint had not been lodged by Jesse Helms or some irate member of the Christian Coalition. Instead, the complainant was a feminist English professor who protested that the eighteenth-century painting of a recumbent nude woman made her and her female students "uncomfortable."

This was not an isolated incident. At the University of Arizona at Tucson, feminist students physically attacked a graduate student's exhibit of photographic self-portraits. Why? The artist had photographed herself in her underwear. And at the University of Michigan Law School, feminist students who had organized a conference on "Prostitution: From Academia to Activism" removed a feminist-curated art
exhibition held in conjunction with the conference. Their reason? Conference speakers had complained that a composite videotape containing interviews of working prostitutes was "pornographic" and therefore unacceptable.

What is wrong with this picture? Where have they come from -- these feminists who behave like religious conservatives, who censor works of art because they deal with sexual themes? Have not feminists long known that censorship is a dangerous weapon which, if permitted, would inevitably be turned against them? Certainly that was the irrefutable lesson of the early women's rights movement, when Margaret Sanger, Mary Ware Dennett, and other activists were arrested, charged with "obscenity," and prosecuted for distributing educational pamphlets about sex and birth control. Theirs
was a struggle for freedom of sexual expression and full gender equality, which they understood to be mutually reinforcing.

Theirs was also a lesson well understood by the second wave of feminism in the 1970s, when writers such as Germaine Greer, Betty Friedan, and Betty Dodson boldly asserted that women had the right to be free from discrimination not only in the workplace and in the classroom but in the bedroom as well. Freedom from limiting, conventional stereotypes concerning female sexuality was an essential aspect of what we then called "women's liberation.? Women should not be seen as victims in their sexual relations
with men but as equally assertive partners, just as capable of experiencing sexual pleasure.

But it is a lesson that, alas, many feminists have now forgotten. Today, an increasingly influential feminist pro-censorship movement threatens to impair the very women's rights movement it professes to serve. Led by law professor Catharine MacKinnon and writer Andrea Dworkin, this faction of the feminist movement maintains that sexually oriented expression -- not sex-segregated labour markets, sexist concepts of marriage and family, or pent-up rage -- is the pre-eminent cause of discrimination and violence against women. Their solution is seemingly simple: suppress all "pornography."

Censorship, however, is never a simple matter. First, the offence must be described. And how does one define something so infinitely variable, so deeply personal, so uniquely individualized as the image, the word, and the fantasy that cause sexual arousal? For decades, the U.S. Supreme Court has engaged in a Sisyphean struggle to craft a definition of obscenity that the lower courts can apply with some fairness and consistency. Their dilemma was best summed up in former Justice Potter Stewart's now famous statement: "I shall not today attempt further to define [obscenity]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

The censorious feminists are not so modest as Justice Stewart. They have fashioned an elaborate definition of pornography that encompasses vastly more material than does the currently recognized law of obscenity. As set out in their model law (which has been considered in more than a dozen jurisdictions in the United States and overseas, and which has been substantially adopted in Canada), pornography is "the sexually explicit subordination of women through pictures and/or words The model law lists eight different criteria that attempt to illustrate their concept of "subordination," such as depictions in which "women are presented in postures or positions of sexual submission, servility, or display" or "women are presented in scenarios of degradation, humiliation, injury, torture . in a context that makes these conditions sexual." This linguistic driftnet can ensnare anything from religious imagery and documentary footage about the mass rapes in the Balkans to self-help books about women's health. Indeed, the Boston Women's Health Book Collective, publisher of the now classic book on women's health and sexuality, Our Bodies, Ourselves, actively campaigned against the MacKinnon
Dworkin model law when it was proposed in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in 1985, recognizing that the book's explicit text and pictures could be targeted as pornographic under the law.

Although the "MacDworkinite" approach to pornography has an intuitive appeal to many feminists, it is itself based on subordinating and demeaning stereotypes about women. Central to the pornophobic feminists -- and to many traditional conservatives and right-wing fundamentalists, as well -- is the notion that sex is inherently degrading to women (although not to men). Not just sexual expression but sex itself-even consensual, nonviolent sex -- is an evil from which women, like children, must be protected.

MacKinnon puts it this way: "Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike. . . .The major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it And from Dworkin: "Intercourse remains a means or the means of physiologically making a woman inferior." Given society's pervasive sexism, she believes, women cannot freely consent to sexual relations with men; those who do consent are, in Dworkin's words, "collaborators ... experiencing pleasure in their own
inferiority."

These ideas are hardly radical. Rather, they are a reincarnation of disempowering puritanical, Victorian notions that feminists have long tried to consign to the dustbin of history: woman as sexual victim; man as voracious satyr. The MacDworkinite approach to sexual expression is a throwback to the archaic stereotypes that formed the basis for nineteenth century laws which prohibited "vulgar" or sexually suggestive language from being used in the presence of women and girls.

In those days, women were barred from practicing law and serving as jurors lest they be exposed to such language. Such "protective" laws have historically functioned to bar women from full legal equality. Paternalism always leads to exclusion, discrimination, and the loss of freedom and autonomy. And in its most extreme form, it leads to purdah, in which women are completely shrouded from public view.

The pro-censorship feminists are not fighting alone. Although they try to distance themselves from such traditional "family-values" conservatives as Jesse Helms, Phyllis Schlafly, and Donald Wildmon, who are less interested in protecting women than in preserving male dominance, a common hatred of sexual expression and fondness for censorship unite the two camps. For example, the Indianapolis City Council adopted the MacKinnon-Dworkin model law in 1984 thanks to the hard work of former
council member Beulah Coughenour, a leader of the Indiana Stop ERA movement. (Federal courts later declared the law unconstitutional.) And when Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum and Beverly LaHaye's Concerned Women for America launched their "Enough Is Enough" anti-pornography campaign, they trumpeted the words of Andrea Dworkin in promotional materials.

This mutually reinforcing relationship does a serious disservice to the fight for women's equality. It lends credibility to and strengthens the right wing and its anti-feminist, anti-choice, homophobic agenda. This is particularly damaging in light of the growing influence of the religious right in the Republican Party and the recent Republican sweep of both Congress and many state governments. If anyone doubts that the newly empowered GOP intends to forge ahead with anti-woman agendas, they need only read the party's "Contract with America" which, among other things, reintroduces the recently repealed "gag rule" forbidding government-funded family-planning clinics from even discussing abortion with their patients.

The pro-censorship feminists base their efforts on the largely unexamined assumption that ridding society of pornography would reduce sexism and violence against women. If there were any evidence that this were true, anti-censorship feminists -- myself included -- would be compelled at least to re-examine our opposition to censorship. But there is no such evidence to be found.

A causal connection between exposure to pornography and the commission of sexual violence has never been established. The National Research Council's Panel on Understanding and Preventing Violence concluded in a 1993 survey of laboratory studies that "demonstrated empirical links between pornography and sex crimes in general are weak or absent Even according to another research literature survey that former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop conducted at the behest of the staunchly anti-pornography Meese Commission, only two reliable generalizations could be made about
the impact of "degrading" sexual material on its viewers: it caused them to think that a variety of sexual practices was more common than they had previously believed, and to more accurately estimate the prevalence of varied sexual practices.

Correlational studies are similarly unsupportive of the pro-censorship cause. There are no consistent correlations between the availability of pornography in various communities, states, and countries and their rates of sexual offenses. If anything, studies suggest an inverse relationship: a greater availability of sexually explicit material seems to correlate not with higher rates of sexual violence but, rather, with higher indices of gender equality. For example, Singapore, with its tight restrictions on pornography, has experienced a much greater increase in rape rates than has Sweden, with its liberalized obscenity laws.

There is mounting evidence, however, that MacDworkinite-type laws will be used against the very people they are sup posed to protect -- namely, women. In 1992, for example, the Canadian Supreme Court incorporated the MacKinnon-Dworkin concept of pornography into Canadian obscenity law. Since that ruling, in Butler v. The Queen -- which MacKinnon enthusiastically hailed as "a stunning victory for women" -- well over half of all feminist bookstores in Canada have had materials confiscated or detained by customs. According to the Feminist Bookstore News, a Canadian publication, "The Butler decision has been used...only to seize lesbian, gay, and feminist material."

Ironically but predictably, one of the victims of Canada's new law is Andrea Dworkin herself. Two of her books, Pornography: Men Possessing Women and Women Hating, were seized, customs officials said, because they "illegally eroticized pain and bondage Like the MacKinnon-Dworkin model law, the Butler decision makes no exceptions for material that is part of a feminist critique of pornography or other feminist presentation. And this inevitably overbroad sweep is precisely why censorship is antithetical to the fight for women's rights.

The pornophobia that grips MacKinnon, Dworkin, and their followers has had further
counterproductive impacts on the fight for women's rights. Censorship factionalism within the feminist movement has led to an enormously wasteful diversion of energy from the real cause of and solutions to the ongoing problems of discrimination and violence against women. Moreover, the "porn-made-me-do-it" defense, whereby convicted rapists cite MacKinnon and Dworkin in seeking to reduce their sentences, actually impedes the aggressive enforcement of criminal laws against sexual
violence.

A return to the basic principles of women's liberation would put the feminist movement back on course. We women are entitled to freedom of expression -- to read, think, speak, sing, write, paint, dance, dream, photograph, film, and fantasize as we wish. We are also entitled to our dignity, autonomy, and equality. Fortunately, we can -- and will -- have both.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,281
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: ]
    #1868437 - 08/31/03 01:21 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

  Ironically but predictably, one of the victims of Canada's new law is Andrea Dworkin herself.




I remember when that happened. I gloated for a week :smile:


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OfflineClover
phenomenal woman
Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 99
Loc: Beyond the Veil
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: ]
    #1870690 - 09/01/03 07:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Now *THAT* is good reading. Thanks for the post!

I cannot even BEGIN to comment on the above until I have had my first cup of coffee and orgasm brought about by my own fantasies.  :lol:
 


--------------------
"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
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Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,567
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: wingnutx]
    #1871389 - 09/01/03 02:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

In Utah a while ago their was a case where a video store had an area for porn and the city tried to shut them down..

It went to court and they lost because of local laws then they challenged the local laws because of the word "obscene"...

They subpoena internet and cable TV pay per view statistics and showed that more than 50% of homes in that area subscribed to porn which meant that the majority didnt find porn to be "obscene" and the courts ruled that porn was not obscene...

Mormons are funny.


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GabbaDj

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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1872225 - 09/01/03 07:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I've got a good mormon joke for you...

why is it always better to take 2 mormons fishing
with you instead of just one?

if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer.

if you bring two, they'll keep each other honest.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
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Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,322
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: afoaf]
    #1872279 - 09/01/03 07:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
I've got a good mormon joke for you...

why is it always better to take 2 mormons fishing
with you instead of just one?

if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer.

if you bring two, they'll keep each other honest.




Where I come from it's Baptists.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Politics of Porn [Re: Ekstaza]
    #1872495 - 09/01/03 08:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

hey, it's an equal opportunity barb.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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